The Barry Bonds show will be in full tilt in the next couple of weeks. As he approaches the home run title, there will be many bashers saying he doesn’t deserve it. There will be the hometown fans that will be on top of the world. There will be the casual fans who only know the names: Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron. Does Barry Bonds deserve the record? In my mind without a doubt, I’m a fan through and through.
What a lot people fail to remember is: if we hate them, it doesn’t mean they are bad. Since the beginning of sports, you love your home team and you hate your competition. Red Sox fans hate the Yankees. Dodger fans hate the Giants. It goes on and on. People forget that the players are entertainers. Why do you watch Deion Sanders field a punt? Unless you were a Cowboys fan, you hated this guy because of his cocky attitude. You watched because you knew something exciting could happen, but most of all you knew he could beat you in one play. Do you think Chicago Bears fans loved Barry Sanders? I don’t think so. He could beat them in blink of an eye. When a great baseball player steps to the plate, it’s like time stops. Whatever you are doing in that moment, you stop to watch. Barry Bonds will be the moment. If you love him or hate him, you will watch. You will watch because it will be history. You might feel it is tainted, but it won’t matter.
Many fans feel he cheated. What is cheating? You look over friends shoulder on a test to get the answers. You take a short cut to the finish line to win a race. Did he take steroids? Maybe, did it make him an instant homerun hitter? Did he drink something and bang instant baseball hero? I think he was a great player and he put in hours and hours in the gym to get stronger. He worked and worked at his trade. Does strength make him a better baseball hitter? Maybe if you make contact, you can hit the ball further. Contact takes skill. You have to have great hand eye coordination. As Barry got older, he became the best player at making solid contact of all-time. You just couldn’t get him out in a big spot. I hear many people call him selfish. I find that hard to believe. If he was selfish, he would be swinging away trying to hit homeruns in every at bat. Yet, he stands there and watches ball after ball just waiting for something to hit. Some games he is lucky to see one pitch to hit. He has become the most feared hitter in baseball.
Babe Ruth is an all-time great. He changed the game of baseball. In my mind, he was a man among boys. He had the size and the strength. I think he was ahead of his time. After he played the game, other players would follow in his foot steps. They would emulate what he had done. Would he be the best player if he played today? Not even close. Do me a favor if you disagree, go back and look at the Olympic records from the 1920’s. Is there anything a person did better back then? Did they run faster or jump higher? Were they stronger? Almost every player is the size of Babe Ruth today. If you go back to the Little League World Series a few years back, Danny Almonte was a star. Why? He was a young man among boys. He had an edge. He was 14 competing against 12 year olds. I’m not saying Danny Almonte belong in the same sentence with Babe Ruth, but a player with an edge in skills and talent will dominate until the competition catches up with him. As Babe Ruth reached the end of his career, there were more players who could do similar things.
What Hank Aaron endured is truly amazing. How he was treated is embracing to me. I can’t even imagine what it was like to live during his era. For him to accomplish what he did, he has to be a special man. He played during a time where he was never respected as the best player of his era. When you look at him, you wonder why he doesn’t embrace the game he loved so much. The answer is easy. He was disrespected as a man. The fans didn’t love him for what he did. He gave his heart and soul to the game. The fans stole whatever passion he had left. Does he owe the game a guest appearance at Barry Bond’s crowning? When he had his moment of glory, he received hate mail and death threats. It’s time to pass the torch. Is he to pass on the great experience he had? Now, he gets his respect because the fans believe Barry’s chase is tainted. It’s kind of like getting spit on him again. The fans only want to give him respect now because they don’t like Barry. Hank Aaron is a Hall of Fame baseball player, but most of all, he is a man who helped change baseball and helped open doors for future black men. For that, he is an American hero.
Barry Bond’s father played under similar conditions. He played at the tail end of Hank Aaron career. There is no doubt what Bobby Bonds experienced was passed on to his son. His father taught him not to trust anyone. When you are not embraced, you don’t embrace. It may be a Barry flaw, but it might not be his fault.
The average fan will only connect Barry Bonds to steroids. They will know about the homers, but they won’t know he stole 50 bases before in a season. They won’t know he was intentionally walked 120 times in a season. Barry has been under a constant microscope. He has responded under unbelievable circumstances. During his career, he has never been surrounded by an all-star team. He has had a couple of star players, but the pressure was on his shoulders to lead the team to victory.
The media will be the painter. The picture could look like a rough sketch from a crime scene to a Picasso. How the average fan views Barry will a direct result of the media. For the true baseball fan, you will either love him or hate him. If you hate him, it is easy to use steroids. Is that the real reason or is it because they don’t like what he represents already?
The fans and the sports media are the jury. They will put Barry on trial for what he has done. Is he a jerk? I’m sure he has had his moments. I think we all have a moment or two when we act like an a$$hole . It could be on the drive to work when you are late. Why is this jerk driving so slowly? You’re tailgating him just waiting for the right moment to pass. As you pass him, there is the nice exchange of the finger. On the way home, you are glad the day is over. You look in your rear view mirror. Why is this a$$hole tailgating me? It is a different view, but the results are the same.
What if the rolls were reversed for the media? How would the media respond? Would they step up to the plate? Would their true colors show? Have they all been faithful? We seldom read about the sports writer who gets pulled over for a DUI. I’m sure they have never squeezed a buck out of their boss on an expense report. They have never screwed Uncle Sam a dollar during tax season. I think half of America is on some pill for something. The jury isn’t perfect by any means. Everyone has walked the line one time or another.
Barry Bonds the person might not be a person you want to know, but would you be a better person if someone was in your face for the last decade? Most of us can’t stand our significant other on our ass for more than a minute. As time passes Barry might grow and become more engaging as he moves away from the spot light.
Barry Bonds the baseball player is an all-time great. He will pass Hank Aaron on the all time home run list. He has done unbelievable things during his baseball career. Does he deserve the record? Who knows. Was he the only player to cross the line? What percentage of his competition was doing the same (pitchers included)? From Babe Ruth’s era until present time, the talent pool has grown at every level. In today’s game, there are so many more pitchers who throw hard. The game is more specialized. From the walks, lefty specialists, and the closers, was it harder for Barry Bonds than a Hanks Aaron who faced a pitcher running out of gas late in games? I’m not sure, but it seems like it would be.
As I said before, Barry didn’t just drink something and become Superman. If that was the case, you would think there would be more players doing what he has done. He is a special player with special talents. He has worked hard as his craft. He may never get the true respect for his career feats, but he will have set the bar for other to chase. Barry has entertained us for years. He has filled stadiums, gave us endless highlights on ESPN, and left us with questions about steroids. We may never know the real answer, but to me it won’t matter. I respect what he has accomplished. I understand the pitfalls. I will always remember that short quick swing with a short bat. Someday Barry might find peace with the media, but for now he is at their mercy. He might not be perfect, but I think we all have our faults. We have cut corners, offended someone here and there, and even broken a law or two. Until we walk in someone else’s shoes, we can only hope to understand how they arrived at home plate. Barry walked through a changing world. A world filled with questions about respect and disrespect. His Father had to ride in the back of the bus, but Barry can own the whole bus company that my friend is a changing world. The quest for the almighty dollar could be the bus driver in the steroid game. Until they can prove he is the one and only, he is just another player who played the game. A game within a game…..spit balls, corked bats, sand paper…it goes on and on.
[ July 23, 2007, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: CC's Desperados ]
The Barry watch is on....
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Chest Rockwell
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The Barry watch is on....
Quick and dirty version-
I have met both men at least a couple of times. Aaron classy but you almost pick up a dog who has been kicked one too many times syndrome. If that is the worst thing you can say about the man after what he went through then that says a lot.
Bonds is probably the nastiest human being I have ever been around. He treats everyone terribly.
I am supposed to celebrate the passing of that torch?
Anyone who has ever been in a gym a day in their life or who has tried to maintain a certain strength after you early 30's knows all he needs to know about whether the guy juiced...
Fantastic ballplayer, best of his generation, for sure hall of famer before the juice absolutely... He does not come within 150 homeruns of this record without cheating. I hope he breaks it on the road and gets booed around the bases. That same day I hope 50 people tell Hank Aaron he is the greatest and they are sorry for how he was treated.
I have met both men at least a couple of times. Aaron classy but you almost pick up a dog who has been kicked one too many times syndrome. If that is the worst thing you can say about the man after what he went through then that says a lot.
Bonds is probably the nastiest human being I have ever been around. He treats everyone terribly.
I am supposed to celebrate the passing of that torch?
Anyone who has ever been in a gym a day in their life or who has tried to maintain a certain strength after you early 30's knows all he needs to know about whether the guy juiced...
Fantastic ballplayer, best of his generation, for sure hall of famer before the juice absolutely... He does not come within 150 homeruns of this record without cheating. I hope he breaks it on the road and gets booed around the bases. That same day I hope 50 people tell Hank Aaron he is the greatest and they are sorry for how he was treated.
The Barry watch is on....
A great write-up Shawn! Some compelling ideas and a lot of unconventional truth ... however ...
Although Bonds was only one of many on something throughtout the history of the game, and so, no, we cannot discount that he was a great talent, I still can't root for this guy, and like Hank Aaron don't even care to watch the race, given that Bonds is to me a prototypical habitual cheater, liar, me-oriented selfish modern athlete.
Sports, and baseball in particular, is a team game. It is a microcosm of, and analogous to, society as a whole. My business is full of Barry Bonds-types (any money-oriented business is full of guys like him) ... Did I root for Michael Milken to make more money than anyone else? Did I applaud him for being better at cheating the system with inside information at the expense of other investors who were investing honestly? Do I hail Richard Scrushy for being a great CEO because he successfully grew Healthsouth's business in spite of the fact that he used bribery and other illegal, unethical tactics in the process?
None of the above. All of these individuals had a lot of talent, without it they would not have had the chance to get where they were. But all of them were greedy, they all wanted more than they were entitled to through their own hard work and talent. All of them had little or no regard for those around them who would be negatively impacted by their actions, they were selfish individuals who leached off of society, and who just happened to also have talent.
I won't be watching the home run race, in part because of who it is and what I believe he stands for, and in part because I hate seeing a baseball game stopped in mid-inning for an individual feat (a true team player would be embarrassed). Baseball is a team game, society as a whole is a team game, and to me Barry Bonds is no different from Michael Milken, Richard Scrushy or the guy that breaks into your house to steal something. They all are about taking as much as they can get, and not much more. They all have their reasons ... and yeah, all of us have our moments, but the difference is that most of the people I know try to do things the right way most of the time. Team sports are intended to promote the best qualitiies in people, rewarding players who work hard to improve their talent and sacrifice for the good of their team. Players like Bonds trivialize team sports and rob them of any meaning. It's a shame that he will hold the most prestigious record in the game rather than the great Hank Aaron.
[ July 23, 2007, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]
Although Bonds was only one of many on something throughtout the history of the game, and so, no, we cannot discount that he was a great talent, I still can't root for this guy, and like Hank Aaron don't even care to watch the race, given that Bonds is to me a prototypical habitual cheater, liar, me-oriented selfish modern athlete.
Sports, and baseball in particular, is a team game. It is a microcosm of, and analogous to, society as a whole. My business is full of Barry Bonds-types (any money-oriented business is full of guys like him) ... Did I root for Michael Milken to make more money than anyone else? Did I applaud him for being better at cheating the system with inside information at the expense of other investors who were investing honestly? Do I hail Richard Scrushy for being a great CEO because he successfully grew Healthsouth's business in spite of the fact that he used bribery and other illegal, unethical tactics in the process?
None of the above. All of these individuals had a lot of talent, without it they would not have had the chance to get where they were. But all of them were greedy, they all wanted more than they were entitled to through their own hard work and talent. All of them had little or no regard for those around them who would be negatively impacted by their actions, they were selfish individuals who leached off of society, and who just happened to also have talent.
I won't be watching the home run race, in part because of who it is and what I believe he stands for, and in part because I hate seeing a baseball game stopped in mid-inning for an individual feat (a true team player would be embarrassed). Baseball is a team game, society as a whole is a team game, and to me Barry Bonds is no different from Michael Milken, Richard Scrushy or the guy that breaks into your house to steal something. They all are about taking as much as they can get, and not much more. They all have their reasons ... and yeah, all of us have our moments, but the difference is that most of the people I know try to do things the right way most of the time. Team sports are intended to promote the best qualitiies in people, rewarding players who work hard to improve their talent and sacrifice for the good of their team. Players like Bonds trivialize team sports and rob them of any meaning. It's a shame that he will hold the most prestigious record in the game rather than the great Hank Aaron.
[ July 23, 2007, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]
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sportsbettingman
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The Barry watch is on....
Bonds has averaged a HR per less than 13 at bats.
Bonds has not had much talent protecting his spot in the batting order.
Opposing pitchers and managers have walked Bonds for many reasons...and not all are/were situation related...I'd guess a few times it was just to keep that record further away.
Bonds has like 1120 more walks than Aaron.
If Bonds simply applied his average of 1 HR per 12.9 AB...he'd have another 86 Homeruns...demolishing the record.
Hank pulled an Emmitt Smith...and extended his career with a couple more years in MIL...trying to set that HR record further out of reach.
He hit in the .230 range and slugged in the .360 range for MIL...milking another (empty) 22 home runs to add to his record in his 2 years there.
Bonds has played in 353 LESS games than Hank...and is right there.
~Lance
Bonds has not had much talent protecting his spot in the batting order.
Opposing pitchers and managers have walked Bonds for many reasons...and not all are/were situation related...I'd guess a few times it was just to keep that record further away.
Bonds has like 1120 more walks than Aaron.
If Bonds simply applied his average of 1 HR per 12.9 AB...he'd have another 86 Homeruns...demolishing the record.
Hank pulled an Emmitt Smith...and extended his career with a couple more years in MIL...trying to set that HR record further out of reach.
He hit in the .230 range and slugged in the .360 range for MIL...milking another (empty) 22 home runs to add to his record in his 2 years there.
Bonds has played in 353 LESS games than Hank...and is right there.
~Lance
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once."
~Albert Einstein
~Albert Einstein
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sportsbettingman
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The Barry watch is on....
A-Rod is just as much of a p.rick , and looks to be the favorite to pass Bonds.
Some think Griffey Jr. is a prima donna, McGwire was a jerkoff, Sosa's a fake, Palmeiro's a liar, Manny Ramirez is full of himself, Sheffield's an ass.
The only few active players on the career HR list that are cool are Vlad, Frank Thomas, Thome, and Edmonds I'd guess...I like Griffey Jr. too.
All the current HR hitters are jerks! (Ha!)
Kidding!
~Lance
[ July 23, 2007, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: sportsbettingman ]
Some think Griffey Jr. is a prima donna, McGwire was a jerkoff, Sosa's a fake, Palmeiro's a liar, Manny Ramirez is full of himself, Sheffield's an ass.
The only few active players on the career HR list that are cool are Vlad, Frank Thomas, Thome, and Edmonds I'd guess...I like Griffey Jr. too.
All the current HR hitters are jerks! (Ha!)
Kidding!
~Lance
[ July 23, 2007, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: sportsbettingman ]
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once."
~Albert Einstein
~Albert Einstein
The Barry watch is on....
Originally posted by sportsbettingman:
A-Rod is just as much of a p.rick , and looks to be the favorite to pass Bonds.
Some think Griffey Jr. is a prima donna, McGwire was a jerkoff, Sosa's a fake, Palmeiro's a liar, Manny Ramirez is full of himself, Sheffield's an ass.
The only few active players on the career HR list that are cool are Vlad, Frank Thomas, Thome, and Edmonds I'd guess...I like Griffey Jr. too.
All the current HR hitters are jerks! (Ha!)
Kidding!
~Lance ... and don't forget that Frank Thomas is a big, whining crybaby to anyone from Chicago that watched his career there over the years
A-Rod is just as much of a p.rick , and looks to be the favorite to pass Bonds.
Some think Griffey Jr. is a prima donna, McGwire was a jerkoff, Sosa's a fake, Palmeiro's a liar, Manny Ramirez is full of himself, Sheffield's an ass.
The only few active players on the career HR list that are cool are Vlad, Frank Thomas, Thome, and Edmonds I'd guess...I like Griffey Jr. too.
All the current HR hitters are jerks! (Ha!)
Kidding!
~Lance ... and don't forget that Frank Thomas is a big, whining crybaby to anyone from Chicago that watched his career there over the years
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Chest Rockwell
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The Barry watch is on....
Originally posted by KJ Duke:
quote:Originally posted by sportsbettingman:
A-Rod is just as much of a p.rick , and looks to be the favorite to pass Bonds.
Some think Griffey Jr. is a prima donna, McGwire was a jerkoff, Sosa's a fake, Palmeiro's a liar, Manny Ramirez is full of himself, Sheffield's an ass.
The only few active players on the career HR list that are cool are Vlad, Frank Thomas, Thome, and Edmonds I'd guess...I like Griffey Jr. too.
All the current HR hitters are jerks! (Ha!)
Kidding!
~Lance ... and don't forget that Frank Thomas is a big, whining crybaby to anyone from Chicago that watched his career there over the years [/QUOTE]Easy on the Big Hurt I think most fans will tell you he is one of the nicest guys in the game not just superstars. It has always been a mystery to me how he could have a different side with his teammates and the media.
Lance- Vlad nice guy?- ever get anything except no hablo ingles out of him? Griffey is a close 2nd to Bonds in the likableness factor.
Thome great guy, never met Edmonds and Arod was actually very fan friendly early in his career.
quote:Originally posted by sportsbettingman:
A-Rod is just as much of a p.rick , and looks to be the favorite to pass Bonds.
Some think Griffey Jr. is a prima donna, McGwire was a jerkoff, Sosa's a fake, Palmeiro's a liar, Manny Ramirez is full of himself, Sheffield's an ass.
The only few active players on the career HR list that are cool are Vlad, Frank Thomas, Thome, and Edmonds I'd guess...I like Griffey Jr. too.
All the current HR hitters are jerks! (Ha!)
Kidding!
~Lance ... and don't forget that Frank Thomas is a big, whining crybaby to anyone from Chicago that watched his career there over the years [/QUOTE]Easy on the Big Hurt I think most fans will tell you he is one of the nicest guys in the game not just superstars. It has always been a mystery to me how he could have a different side with his teammates and the media.
Lance- Vlad nice guy?- ever get anything except no hablo ingles out of him? Griffey is a close 2nd to Bonds in the likableness factor.
Thome great guy, never met Edmonds and Arod was actually very fan friendly early in his career.
The Barry watch is on....
Frank Thomas the BIG SKIRT.Harmon Killebrew was the man, can you imagine in this era with weights and steroids, how many would he have hit.
He was in his prime in the pitcher era,still hit 44 homers in 1967 the year of the pitcher.Yaz won the batting title at 301, they had to change the pitching mound the next year to help the hitter.Still if i had one pick for the greatest power hitter ever it isnt even close, BABE RUTH beat entire teams in homers. I agree with Lance that Aaron played those extra two years as a DH to pad the stats, a great player but not RUTH,Aaron never hit 50 homers in one year.
He was in his prime in the pitcher era,still hit 44 homers in 1967 the year of the pitcher.Yaz won the batting title at 301, they had to change the pitching mound the next year to help the hitter.Still if i had one pick for the greatest power hitter ever it isnt even close, BABE RUTH beat entire teams in homers. I agree with Lance that Aaron played those extra two years as a DH to pad the stats, a great player but not RUTH,Aaron never hit 50 homers in one year.
EDWARD J GILLIS
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Edwards Kings
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The Barry watch is on....
I do not dispute Bonds was/is a Hall of Fame Talent. The only weakness in his game is his arm. Great hand/eye coordination in the T. Williams/T. Gwynn (many others) class. Good power/speed combo. But that wasn't enough for him evidently.
He is known to be a jerk. He is not the guy you would want to share a beer with over your back-yard fence. Others have had the spotlight (maybe not as much) but have managed to remain human. So he is a Pete Rose kind of ballplayer who never recognized his luck at having that little extra talent that put him ahead of the rest. Fine. That means I will never care about him as a player, but has nothing to do with the record.
He is a competitor, but a competitor like Boggs. Not about team (IMHO) but about Barry. Remember in Vegas in 2004 when we were having the meet and greet with Marty Barrett? He told the story about how Boggs would be happy and talking with the reporters if he went 3 for 4, but the rest of the team would be in a funk because they had just lost a one run game to the Yanks. Boggs didn't care about the game or the team. Only his personal stats. Bonds strikes me as that type of selfish player (personal opinion). Again, just means I do not like him but does not impact the record.
My problems is he used steroids to change his game. He would have (injuries permitting) made the Hall without the HR record. As Shawn mentioned, Bonds was the rare power/speed five-tools player. He chased some personal glory, took the 'roids, bulked up, increased his HR rate, and he will get the HR record. I would not say his pursuit, after the steriods came to light, have been good for the long-term image of the sport, but I honestly do not think Bonds cares as long as Bonds gets what he wants. He will get the record, but receive it with a collective "Ho-hum" from many of us. He will get in the Hall. Fine. But remember the old saying about how many people showed up at Ty Cobbs funeral? That will be Bonds legacy.
He is known to be a jerk. He is not the guy you would want to share a beer with over your back-yard fence. Others have had the spotlight (maybe not as much) but have managed to remain human. So he is a Pete Rose kind of ballplayer who never recognized his luck at having that little extra talent that put him ahead of the rest. Fine. That means I will never care about him as a player, but has nothing to do with the record.
He is a competitor, but a competitor like Boggs. Not about team (IMHO) but about Barry. Remember in Vegas in 2004 when we were having the meet and greet with Marty Barrett? He told the story about how Boggs would be happy and talking with the reporters if he went 3 for 4, but the rest of the team would be in a funk because they had just lost a one run game to the Yanks. Boggs didn't care about the game or the team. Only his personal stats. Bonds strikes me as that type of selfish player (personal opinion). Again, just means I do not like him but does not impact the record.
My problems is he used steroids to change his game. He would have (injuries permitting) made the Hall without the HR record. As Shawn mentioned, Bonds was the rare power/speed five-tools player. He chased some personal glory, took the 'roids, bulked up, increased his HR rate, and he will get the HR record. I would not say his pursuit, after the steriods came to light, have been good for the long-term image of the sport, but I honestly do not think Bonds cares as long as Bonds gets what he wants. He will get the record, but receive it with a collective "Ho-hum" from many of us. He will get in the Hall. Fine. But remember the old saying about how many people showed up at Ty Cobbs funeral? That will be Bonds legacy.
Baseball is a slow, boring, complex, cerebral game that doesn't lend itself to histrionics. You 'take in' a baseball game, something odd to say about a football or basketball game, with the clock running and the bodies flying.
Charles Krauthammer
Charles Krauthammer
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sportsbettingman
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The Barry watch is on....
As far as steroids in baseball...blame MLB.
They knew it was there, and never attempted to stop it.
It was "good for the game" as far as $$$ was concerned...and MLB is big business...not some old timers nostalgia club.
Post strike year, MLB was hurting bad...the juiced up homers brought the fans back to the ballparks.
Simple era of juice...spread in every locker in MLB. To blame Bonds like a scapegoat seems silly...he was using what (I'd guess) a very high percentage of MLB players were using (or had at least experimented with)in that era.
~Lance
They knew it was there, and never attempted to stop it.
It was "good for the game" as far as $$$ was concerned...and MLB is big business...not some old timers nostalgia club.
Post strike year, MLB was hurting bad...the juiced up homers brought the fans back to the ballparks.
Simple era of juice...spread in every locker in MLB. To blame Bonds like a scapegoat seems silly...he was using what (I'd guess) a very high percentage of MLB players were using (or had at least experimented with)in that era.
~Lance
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once."
~Albert Einstein
~Albert Einstein
The Barry watch is on....
At UFS this week, I have proclaimed it "Barry Bonds" Week, and have asked the simple question, "Give me your thoughts on Bonds."
Two dozen replies have come in. All of them great.
Here's the best.....
This Bonds thing is just a course in humanity, and not all of the blame can be placed on him. There are three elements that are involved, each adding to the mess, and the bias that around him that is involved. I grew up in the 70's in Northern California as a Giants fan. Now, as a baseball lover in general, things are making more sense.
First, the race card is not what people might think. The race problem starts with his father Bobby, and ends with Barry. Think of these two families; the Bonds' (hated) and the Griffey's (loved). If you are old enough, and have paid enough attention to each situation, you see two entirely different upbringings.
Griffey Sr was loved and in returned he "loved" the media and his community back. He was given ultimate respect by the fans, media, and his peers. His son, Griffey Jr. was in the clubhouse, saw how his dad handled himself, and was taught these things. Griffey Jr has carried this torch, and done it well, even when the fans and media have tried to turn on him for being injured. Shame on them for being such thankless sharks.
Bonds Sr was just the opposite. He was a good player, but he carried a chip on his shoulder, especially about how "great" he was. He kept telling himself that his being black is why he never got the respect he desired, but in retrospect, it was his professionalism. He was considered a selfish player, and had an attitude. The Giants grew tired of his antics, and so did each team he played for (7 in 7 years). Each time, the fans, media, and peers had the same opinion of him. Barry saw, and was taught from his dad how to act and handle himself. Barry had a chip on his shoulder from day 1. He grew up watching his dad get "abused" and that's why he carried that chip in college, and the pro's a like. It was passed down from his father.
Second, Barry has used substances, anyone out there who doesn't think so is just fooling themselves, like those who said Rose never bet on BB. Facts are guys, he, like 99% of the other players, never failed a test, and when interviewed, as many as 70% of player admitted to using what could now be considered a "banned" substances. Wasn't it ARod who suggested that if banning Greenies was going to happen they need to shorten the season? Why is it Yankee fans boo the "cheater" Bonds, but cheer their own admitted user Giambi? It has nothing to do with steroids, but being biased.
Which brings me to the third point, humanity and bigotry (or bias if you prefer). There is a ton of bigotry everywhere, but most people don't see Bonds' record as an attack on a "white" record, a black man already has the record. Most of us in the sports world want hero's to break the records of our hero's. If you disagree, then explain to me why Maris carried an * by his 61* homer season for all those years. He was a "White Yankee". Simple, he wasn't a beloved player. If Mantle had hit 61, would the * have been there? Hell no!
Let's be honest with ourselves. If you dislike Bonds (for the person he is, and how he's treated the fans and the media), you will find a reason, (steroids, taxes, wife cheating, or just plain breathing your air) to not want him to succeed. All of the ARod lovers out there (he's an admitted using "Greenies" is the past by the way), if you found out he's using HGH would you suddenly turn on him too? What about Ripken or Puckett; what if they "Used?" "Enhancements" have been in use since the late 60's folks, so all you "anti-steroids" maniacs out there need to move on. What the media did to McGwire this year was a disgrace and it should never happen again.
Barry is one of the 5 greatest players of all time. He deserves to be revered as such, but in the same context, he deserves to be vilified for his lack of tact, and his inability to cope with the fans and media in a professional business-like manner. He's his dad all over again, just a better player. Of course McGwire always did the right things, loved the game and the fans loved him, and the world still stuck it to him the first chance they got. We as fans and the media need to grow up. Bonds is just a sample of how us "little guys" want to bring down those who don't kiss our behinds, and are better at something than others we consider heros.
Two dozen replies have come in. All of them great.
Here's the best.....
This Bonds thing is just a course in humanity, and not all of the blame can be placed on him. There are three elements that are involved, each adding to the mess, and the bias that around him that is involved. I grew up in the 70's in Northern California as a Giants fan. Now, as a baseball lover in general, things are making more sense.
First, the race card is not what people might think. The race problem starts with his father Bobby, and ends with Barry. Think of these two families; the Bonds' (hated) and the Griffey's (loved). If you are old enough, and have paid enough attention to each situation, you see two entirely different upbringings.
Griffey Sr was loved and in returned he "loved" the media and his community back. He was given ultimate respect by the fans, media, and his peers. His son, Griffey Jr. was in the clubhouse, saw how his dad handled himself, and was taught these things. Griffey Jr has carried this torch, and done it well, even when the fans and media have tried to turn on him for being injured. Shame on them for being such thankless sharks.
Bonds Sr was just the opposite. He was a good player, but he carried a chip on his shoulder, especially about how "great" he was. He kept telling himself that his being black is why he never got the respect he desired, but in retrospect, it was his professionalism. He was considered a selfish player, and had an attitude. The Giants grew tired of his antics, and so did each team he played for (7 in 7 years). Each time, the fans, media, and peers had the same opinion of him. Barry saw, and was taught from his dad how to act and handle himself. Barry had a chip on his shoulder from day 1. He grew up watching his dad get "abused" and that's why he carried that chip in college, and the pro's a like. It was passed down from his father.
Second, Barry has used substances, anyone out there who doesn't think so is just fooling themselves, like those who said Rose never bet on BB. Facts are guys, he, like 99% of the other players, never failed a test, and when interviewed, as many as 70% of player admitted to using what could now be considered a "banned" substances. Wasn't it ARod who suggested that if banning Greenies was going to happen they need to shorten the season? Why is it Yankee fans boo the "cheater" Bonds, but cheer their own admitted user Giambi? It has nothing to do with steroids, but being biased.
Which brings me to the third point, humanity and bigotry (or bias if you prefer). There is a ton of bigotry everywhere, but most people don't see Bonds' record as an attack on a "white" record, a black man already has the record. Most of us in the sports world want hero's to break the records of our hero's. If you disagree, then explain to me why Maris carried an * by his 61* homer season for all those years. He was a "White Yankee". Simple, he wasn't a beloved player. If Mantle had hit 61, would the * have been there? Hell no!
Let's be honest with ourselves. If you dislike Bonds (for the person he is, and how he's treated the fans and the media), you will find a reason, (steroids, taxes, wife cheating, or just plain breathing your air) to not want him to succeed. All of the ARod lovers out there (he's an admitted using "Greenies" is the past by the way), if you found out he's using HGH would you suddenly turn on him too? What about Ripken or Puckett; what if they "Used?" "Enhancements" have been in use since the late 60's folks, so all you "anti-steroids" maniacs out there need to move on. What the media did to McGwire this year was a disgrace and it should never happen again.
Barry is one of the 5 greatest players of all time. He deserves to be revered as such, but in the same context, he deserves to be vilified for his lack of tact, and his inability to cope with the fans and media in a professional business-like manner. He's his dad all over again, just a better player. Of course McGwire always did the right things, loved the game and the fans loved him, and the world still stuck it to him the first chance they got. We as fans and the media need to grow up. Bonds is just a sample of how us "little guys" want to bring down those who don't kiss our behinds, and are better at something than others we consider heros.
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Edwards Kings
- Posts: 5909
- Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 6:00 pm
- Location: Duluth, Georgia
The Barry watch is on....
Wow! One of the five greatest? Nope. Sorry. I admit he is Hall of Fame talent (with and without juice), but compared to Wagner, Cobb, Ruth, Aaron, Ryan, Young, Mathewson, Clemens, Gehrig, Williams...well, you get the point.
Baseball is a slow, boring, complex, cerebral game that doesn't lend itself to histrionics. You 'take in' a baseball game, something odd to say about a football or basketball game, with the clock running and the bodies flying.
Charles Krauthammer
Charles Krauthammer
The Barry watch is on....
Originally posted by UFS:
Barry is one of the 5 greatest players of all time. He deserves to be revered as such, but in the same context, he deserves to be vilified for his lack of tact, and his inability to cope with the fans and media in a professional business-like manner. He's his dad all over again, just a better player. Of course McGwire always did the right things, loved the game and the fans loved him, and the world still stuck it to him the first chance they got. We as fans and the media need to grow up. Bonds is just a sample of how us "little guys" want to bring down those who don't kiss our behinds, and are better at something than others we consider heros. UFS, Bid Mac is not universally loved either. He dated a friend of mine and she suffered some serious crap from his roid rages.
And to call Barry top 5 overall is just nuts IMHO
I have tried to read all the pro-barry comments with an open mind and I still just can't get past his cheating, his bizarre rudeness, etc...
[ July 25, 2007, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: Spyhunter ]
Barry is one of the 5 greatest players of all time. He deserves to be revered as such, but in the same context, he deserves to be vilified for his lack of tact, and his inability to cope with the fans and media in a professional business-like manner. He's his dad all over again, just a better player. Of course McGwire always did the right things, loved the game and the fans loved him, and the world still stuck it to him the first chance they got. We as fans and the media need to grow up. Bonds is just a sample of how us "little guys" want to bring down those who don't kiss our behinds, and are better at something than others we consider heros. UFS, Bid Mac is not universally loved either. He dated a friend of mine and she suffered some serious crap from his roid rages.
And to call Barry top 5 overall is just nuts IMHO
I have tried to read all the pro-barry comments with an open mind and I still just can't get past his cheating, his bizarre rudeness, etc...
[ July 25, 2007, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: Spyhunter ]
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sportsbettingman
- Posts: 3038
- Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 6:00 pm
- Contact:
The Barry watch is on....
How would you determine the top 5 players if you didn't use career statistics?
Fan love?
Clutch success? (much of which is determined by teammates and opportunities.)
Team success? (again...a player doesn't have total control over who he plays with.)
Stadium attendance per game played? (would be skewed by bad weather and less populated areas.)
The statistics of Barry Bonds are as good as anyone's.
~Lance
[ July 26, 2007, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: sportsbettingman ]
Fan love?
Clutch success? (much of which is determined by teammates and opportunities.)
Team success? (again...a player doesn't have total control over who he plays with.)
Stadium attendance per game played? (would be skewed by bad weather and less populated areas.)
The statistics of Barry Bonds are as good as anyone's.
~Lance
[ July 26, 2007, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: sportsbettingman ]
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once."
~Albert Einstein
~Albert Einstein
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Edwards Kings
- Posts: 5909
- Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 6:00 pm
- Location: Duluth, Georgia
The Barry watch is on....
Originally posted by sportsbettingman:
How would you determine the top 5 players if you didn't use career statistics?
Fan love?
Clutch success? (much of which is determined by teammates and opportunities.)
Team success? (again...a player doesn't have total control over who he plays with.)
Stadium attendance per game played? (would be skewed by bad weather and less populated areas.)
The statistics of Barry Bonds are as good as anyone's.
~Lance Fair enough. Without even considering Pitchers (and you will have to agree there have been a few worthy of consideration), a couple of stats that might drop Bonds (again...Hall of Fame talent and one of the best ever at delivering the extra base hit) from consideration of top five ballplayers, much less hitters:
Not in the Top 100 for BA (at least 1,000 games and AB)
Not in Top 20 AB/RBI
More that 1,500 strike-outs (more than most of his piers in this class like Ruth, Gehrig, Aaron).
Not a top 5 player of all time in my book.
How would you determine the top 5 players if you didn't use career statistics?
Fan love?
Clutch success? (much of which is determined by teammates and opportunities.)
Team success? (again...a player doesn't have total control over who he plays with.)
Stadium attendance per game played? (would be skewed by bad weather and less populated areas.)
The statistics of Barry Bonds are as good as anyone's.
~Lance Fair enough. Without even considering Pitchers (and you will have to agree there have been a few worthy of consideration), a couple of stats that might drop Bonds (again...Hall of Fame talent and one of the best ever at delivering the extra base hit) from consideration of top five ballplayers, much less hitters:
Not in the Top 100 for BA (at least 1,000 games and AB)
Not in Top 20 AB/RBI
More that 1,500 strike-outs (more than most of his piers in this class like Ruth, Gehrig, Aaron).
Not a top 5 player of all time in my book.
Baseball is a slow, boring, complex, cerebral game that doesn't lend itself to histrionics. You 'take in' a baseball game, something odd to say about a football or basketball game, with the clock running and the bodies flying.
Charles Krauthammer
Charles Krauthammer
The Barry watch is on....
Silly argument comparing era's, but in the name of fairness, Ruth had 15.8 K rate compared to Bonds 15.6
On the other hand Ruth had it all over Bonds in HR per AB. If you're comparing era's...
Ruth was the first baseball player to have a personal trainer.
Bonds was the last baseball player to have a personal trainer imprisoned.
On the other hand Ruth had it all over Bonds in HR per AB. If you're comparing era's...
Ruth was the first baseball player to have a personal trainer.
Bonds was the last baseball player to have a personal trainer imprisoned.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!