Ortiz and Hafner

AmericanDreams · Post by **AmericanDreams** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:32 am

I'm on record saying Crawford and Utley are 2 guys who intrigue me, as far as where everyone thinks they should be picked. Two other guys whose draft selection spot should bring up some interesting issues are Ortiz and Hafner. At what point does the production cover the cost of locking up your Utility spot?

How often do you have quality guys sitting the bench because they aren't good enough to play a regular position yet are blocked by Ortiz/Hafner at utility?

I'll hang up and listen...

Chest Rockwell · Post by **Chest Rockwell** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:38 am

Originally posted by AmericanDreams:

I'm on record saying Crawford and Utley are 2 guys who intrigue me, as far as where everyone thinks they should be picked. Two other guys whose draft selection spot should bring up some interesting issues are Ortiz and Hafner. At what point does the production cover the cost of locking up your Utility spot?

How often do you have quality guys sitting the bench because they aren't good enough to play a regular position yet are blocked by Ortiz/Hafner at utility?

I'll hang up and listen... I am going to give you some real good advice right now listen closely. Do not believe a word that is written on these boards the next 2 weeks. 358 other people and myself want your money.

On a serious note- you will get some honest feedback in January not now.

Dirt Dogs · Post by **Dirt Dogs** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:50 am

It's a risky move to tie up the Utility spot all year. Especially if you need 1 specific category it's nice to plug that SB guy into that spot or if you get injuries to be able to make the lineup work. I had hafner all year last year and if there were guys on the free agent wire I would find myself adding/dropping some guys i didnt want to to make room since I couldnt move hafner.

my .02

Edwards Kings · Post by **Edwards Kings** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:14 am

Originally posted by AmericanDreams:

At what point does the production cover the cost of locking up your Utility spot?

How often do you have quality guys sitting the bench because they aren't good enough to play a regular position yet are blocked by Ortiz/Hafner at utility?Ortiz and Hafner are clearly upper echelon when it comes to fantasy baseball. Generally they will be found on mosts peoples list in the Top 30 or Top 45. Therefore, you should probably consider that there are only a couple guys on your team who could POSSIBLY positively impact your team as much as Ortiz or Hafner. So it is unlikely that the other three of your top four picks are langquishing on your bench because they are being blocked by Ortiz/Hafner (or for that matter Thome). If there is blockage, it probably not due to Ortiz/Hafner/Thome sitting in your DH spot.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:30 am

Originally posted by Chest Rockwell:

quote:Originally posted by AmericanDreams:

I'm on record saying Crawford and Utley are 2 guys who intrigue me, as far as where everyone thinks they should be picked. Two other guys whose draft selection spot should bring up some interesting issues are Ortiz and Hafner. At what point does the production cover the cost of locking up your Utility spot?

How often do you have quality guys sitting the bench because they aren't good enough to play a regular position yet are blocked by Ortiz/Hafner at utility?

I'll hang up and listen... I am going to give you some real good advice right now listen closely. Do not believe a word that is written on these boards the next 2 weeks. 358 other people and myself want your money.

On a serious note- you will get some honest feedback in January not now. [/QUOTE]Pay no attention to Chest. Now, as far as Ortiz and Hafner, these guys are WAY overrated and should not tie up the all important Utility spot in your lineup. Utility should not be used for guys such as these, instead it should be used for a sixth OF'er or extra infielder. Again, pay no attention to Chest.

poopy tooth · Post by **poopy tooth** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:34 am

Excellent post from Edward Kings. If you have a player who is more productive than Ortiz or Hafner, than they should be starting at their position. I can't thin of a situation where I would have someone on the bench more valuable than Ortiz/Hafner.

They are 1st and 2nd guys. If you bench either of them you have to look at it being a result of 1 of these 3 scenarios...

1. One is hurt and you need someone to replace them.

2. You drafted REAL sleepers who are not only outperforming Ortiz, Hafner, but they are also being outperformed by two other players on your team. For example, if you draft Alex Gordon and you already have ARod and G. Atkins. (Don't see how you would have ARod, Atkins and Hafner, but we'll assume you stepped in sh*t and got lucky.) To bench Hafner (Gordon would have to be outperforming not only Hafner, but Atkins and ARod would also have to be or you would just slide Gordon into 3B or CI spot. I hope that makes sense??? Basically, they should only sit if they are being outperformed by several others.

3. And hopefully this won't happen, haven't heard it happening yet, although I have a feeling it may this year (just not with Ortiz/Hafner.) If someone drafts two DH eligible players only, like Hafner - Thomas, then obviously 1 would have to sit the bench. I also imagine this owner would want to get up and run for cover!

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:19 am

While you won't have anyone on your bench better than Hafner or Ortiz, you very well could end up passing on a "better" player during the draft because your UT spot is locked up. Here's a silly example, but a good one nonetheless:

Let's say you take David Ortiz in the first, then Derrek Lee in the second. Amazingly enough, Justin Morneau is still sitting there at the end of the third. It would be crazy not to take him, but if you do, you're now frozen out of any additional 1B "values" that appear later in the draft. Assuming you take Morneau, now we come to the 9th round and--what's this?--Prince Fielder is still sitting there. Obviously this group of drafters does not like first basemen, but if you take Fielder, it's going to take an injury to one of your top 3 picks to get him off of your bench. You curse yourself for taking Ortiz, and pass on what would be the STEAL of the entire NFBC.

The above scenario may be extreme, but it should be clear why filling your UT position in the 1st round is not necessarily a great idea.

Kimo · Post by **Kimo** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:43 am

Or you can take Ortiz in the 1st Round. And have Hafner available in the 2nd. Or Thome in the 5th. Or Thomas in the 8th. Since you took Ortiz in the 1st, you can't take another DH.

Spyhunter · Post by **Spyhunter** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:47 am

Originally posted by King of Queens:

While you won't have anyone on your bench better than Hafner or Ortiz, you very well could end up passing on a "better" player during the draft because your UT spot is locked up. Here's a silly example, but a good one nonetheless:

Let's say you take David Ortiz in the first, then Derrek Lee in the second. Amazingly enough, Justin Morneau is still sitting there at the end of the third. It would be crazy not to take him, but if you do, you're now frozen out of any additional 1B "values" that appear later in the draft. Assuming you take Morneau, now we come to the 9th round and--what's this?--Prince Fielder is still sitting there. Obviously this group of drafters does not like first basemen, but if you take Fielder, it's going to take an injury to one of your top 3 picks to get him off of your bench. You curse yourself for taking Ortiz, and pass on what would be the STEAL of the entire NFBC.

The above scenario may be extreme, but it should be clear why filling your UT position in the 1st round is not necessarily a great idea. I have had this exact scenario happen (though usually it is with someone like Frank Thomas in a later round) and it is a frustration - normally you could trade one of these guys but in NFBC that obviously doesn't work. Having said that, I took Ortize last year on my $650 team and he carried me almost to a 1st place finish (slipped to second on last day).

I would also note that Ortiz did get 1b eligibilty last year!

The scenario above can happen for almost any position actually. For example, lets say you pick up Utley, Rollins, and Phillips (2b, SS, 2b/SS), then you see Barfield falling. What do you do? Barfield could be great, but probably not the very best hitter available at that moment...

Anyway, Haftner and Ortiz are great drafts at 11-15th IMHO. Their incredible production outweights the remaining players you can get.

Hangtown · Post by **Hangtown** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:53 am

How far can you let Ortiz drop before you're giving away too much value?

I did a mock draft the other day and I passed on him just for that reason (at 14 and 17). I wanted to see where he'd fall and he was eventually drafted at 20 by the guy that had taken Vlad in the 1st...

Makes you wonder?

RODGER · Post by **RODGER** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:00 am

The thing that has been such an annoyance to me, as a past owner of TravHav, is inter-league play.

Sometimes they talk about getting Ortiz or Hafner in the lineup at 1B for games in NL parks.

Sometimes they talk about playing them at 1B for just some of those games.

It becomes very unpredictable, and just when you hear that Hafner is only going to play once per series during a given week (2 starts) and you decide to bench him, he ends up having a 3-HR game in one of those two chances.

Ortiz and Hafner are still great to have, but they come with frustrating complications.

Spyhunter · Post by **Spyhunter** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:03 am

I will take the 'complications' for 50hr !!!

eddiejag · Post by **eddiejag** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:08 am

Ortiz and Hafner should not go in the 1st round just for these reasons.They hog up your utility spots and you cant get those bargain dh guys later.Their is a point when they should go , but that is the 2nd round.