Another ADP and 'Value' Rant

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DOUGHBOYS
Posts: 13091
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:00 pm

Another ADP and 'Value' Rant

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:20 am

Somebody made a post asking for ADP as soon as possible.
Really?
These first drafters are only leaving a trail. An ADP trail.
For some reason, we think we need a guide. It sides with the 'More information is better' crowd. The problem being that these 'more information is good' folks have yet to sort the good information from the bad.
I'm not saying the drafters in the first few leagues may be stupid (even though I was one of them), I'm just saying that even though somebody blazed a trail first, it may not be the best road to our destination.

I get criticized for my 'Screw ADP' approach. I don't care much. ADP, really, is simply replacing 'experts' rankings with our own.
It is merely a step up. Not that we're that much smarter than 'experts'. It's just that we in the NFBC all have the same rules and goals. An 'experts' rankings is a do it all approach for the most part. Good for eight, ten, twelve, and 15 team leagues. Good for roto, head to head, or any other rules.
Simply put, NFBC ADP is streamlined for the NFBC player.

For some godforsaken reason, drafters think of ADP as 'value'.
Stupid really.
None of us know the true value of a player before the season begins.
If we did, this game would be damned boring.
And if we did, Matt Kemp would not have been the fifth player chosen last year according to ADP or 'value'.
Last year, Chris Davis ADP was 119. His ADP came after other first basemen like Ike Davis and Paul Konerko.
No, really, it did.
Those who chose Chris Davis at pick 150 claimed 'value'. In reality, they were just lucky or even stupider than others. Yet, that drafter was rewarded.
I have more respect for the drafter who took Davis at pick number 85 in being right about Davis, than the guy who took him at 150, claiming 'value' and 'settling' for Davis.

We never get 'value' at a draft. Never. We cheat ADP and call it 'value'. Since football is fresh in folks minds, Ray Rice went in the first round of almost any draft.
If any drafter got him even in the second round, would he have gotten 'value'?
The answer is a big NO.
The results are now known. Ray Rice is a bust. For some reason, we declare 'value' before it's realized.
It's ass backwards.
Cheating ADP is cheating ADP. That's all. 'Value' is just a buzz word.

In cheating ADP, some folks like to think they are ahead of the curve.
They're not.
The player is the important thing. If cheating ADP with Ray Rice, you've only cheated yourself. If cheating ADP with Chris Davis, your team is looking good.
Our lists all go from top to bottom. When it is our turn to draft, many things run through our mind....
Who is next on my list
What position do I need?
What category do I need most?
Hitter or pitcher?
How many categories can this drafted player cover?
Will this guy be here next round?

It is that last question where some depend too much on ADP. They fool themselves into thinking that a composite ADP will remain true for their draft. Forgetting that each draft is like a fingerprint, all different.
Lets make an example of a stupid drafter who is married to ADP.
He is drafting 12th. His goal for the first two rounds is to nab a power infielder and back him with an ace pitcher.
But, instead of going by his own list, he is already thinking of ADP, and cheating it.
The top player available on his list is Prince Fielder, who has an ADP of 10. Fielder fits his plan.
But, Matt Kemp, who is lower than Fielder on HIS OWN list has dropped to him.
He wasn't much of a thought, thinking he wouldn't be available.
Kemp has an ADP of 5.
He drafts Kemp.
Ugh.
In this case, he has let the populace make his pick for him. He claims 'value'. He's happy and so are the other drafters that now do not have to give Kemp a notion.
After making this pick, he thinks the odds will be higher that Fielder will make it back to him in the second round, simply because ADP tells him so.
Fielder doesn't make it back. He is selected by picker 13.
He now crosses his fingers that he'll get Verlander, Kershaw, or Strasburg. He had gone into this draft wanting a good hitting infielder and ace starter with his first two picks.
Kershaw goes 14.
Verlander goes 15.
Tulowitzki goes 15.
Longoria goes 14.
Strasburg goes 13.
He picks Josh Hamilton.
Drafter 13, despite being one pick BEHIND him has his 'hoped for' start!
Instead of having Fielder and possibly his starting pitcher (Kemp may have altered another drafters plan), he is stuck with two outfielders.
Two outfielders that cheat ADP.
Two outfielders, as we know now, had very little value.
He claims 'value', but ADP just kicked his ass.

Nobody else in a draft should know who we really covet or our plan. That is the beauty of each draft. Last year, Matt Kemp was a land mine, not 'value'. For being a land mine last year, he'll be ADP 'ed in the third round this year. It's the way ADP works, we spank a player for fooling us. But, we were fooled a lot last year.
Here is the ADP first round from last year.....

Miguel Cabrera
Mike Trout
Ryan Braun
Robinson Cano
Matt Kemp
Andrew McCutchen
Joey Votto
Albert Pujols
Carlos Gonzalez
Prince Fielder
Troy Tulowitzki
Giancarlo Stanton
Justin Verlander
Stephen Strasburg
Clayton Kershaw

Not many of these players after Cabrera and Trout truly returned value. I might even say that after Cabrera and Trout, we were downright stupid as composite drafters. Cheating ADP in this case, is like copying off the dumbest kid in the class, then going out on the playground and bragging about how good the grade is going to be.
It is only till those grades are seen that we realize the 'value' of copying off the dumbest kid in class.

DRAFT A PLAYER YOU LIKE OR IS IN YOUR PLAN.
I can't stress that enough. If losing, we'll have known that we lost with OUR players.
Sure, there are going to be many times during a draft in which you'll want two players. You know that maybe one player will make it back to you, simply because ADP says so. You shouldn't have to physically look at ADP before deciding. That ADP should be in your head.
We try to 'finesse' a pick.
Last year, Chris Davis, Mike Morse, and Middlebrooks were together in our ADP (How smart does ADP look now :lol: )
If in your draft, everybody leading back to you has a 1B, there is a chance we'll be lucky enough to get Davis in the next round. So, we take Middlebrooks.
We're finessing Davis in hopes that other drafters will not look at him positionally.
But, he is taken.
How did that turn out for us?
If liking Davis, or Davis fit our plan more than Morse or Middlebrooks, we just let positioning or finessing in a draft dictate our choice.
It's crazy. Don't do that!
If wanting to finesse a player, pick the one most coveted by yourself, not others.

We forget during a draft that we'll have to live with these players for the next six months. We'll wonder why we chose Middlebrooks. We didn't even care for him much. We got Chris Davis on other teams because we liked him. If we're lucky, we won't remember that we screwed ourselves during this draft in exchanging Middlebrooks for Davis.
Over the next four and a half months, you are going to hear the word 'value' 2,109,462 times.
Go ahead, count 'em if you don't believe me!
No matter the pick, no matter the draft, nobody has 'value'.
Not a soul.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

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Edwards Kings
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Re: Another ADP and 'Value' Rant

Post by Edwards Kings » Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:26 am

You and I have had this discussion here before. I agree with you that drafted based on ADP is wrong but ADP, with this particular sub-set of fantasy baseball owners, has "value" (only 2,109,461 to go).

You wrote "Forgetting that each draft is like a fingerprint, all different." Not quite. A finger print is unique. From the ADP, we can discern commonality...trends. Within variability, as you mention, we can assign risk. Chris Davis is a bad and a good example. If Davis had gotten hurt, a variable, we would not be talking about how dumb those that passed on him are for relying on ADP, as you contend, for waiting around on him. I would suspect most of us, if not all, did not have Chris Davis as the #2 Cornerman after Miguel Cabrera. How many of us had him Top 10, Top 15, ahead of Pujols, Goldschmidt, Votto (;)), Encarnacion, Longoria, Beltre, etc., etc.?

So, how could ADP be of value (2,109,460)? Assume I am looking for power bats and power arms early (reasonable and rational compared to looking for glove-first middle-infielders and soft-tossing innings eaters early). I like Chris Davis (thinking like March 2013 rather than November 2013), but I have (erroneously as it turns out) ranked others, without ADP, as better fits for the team I am planning, but would not cry if he were on my team. With ADP, I could statistically assign risk to waiting on Davis, which gives me flexibility. If the draft does not go as planned in my head (a good speed opportunity presents itself, or an extra highly regarded power arm) and I am light but not bereft of power after the first five picks, I can assign risk to Davis by having a 95% or more chance of getting him in the sixth, down to 50% in the eighth (made up numbers as I do not have my analysis from last year). If someone else jumps him, fine. I have other picks because I do not want to be wedded to only targeting certain players (or at least limit that targeting).

For me, ADP gives me the chance to apply at least some loose statistical risk to when players go, allowing me to apply opportunity cost (damn accountant). Statistics are and never will be absolute, but generally they are correct. The more data, the more the +/- is focused.

In that regard, ADP has value (2,109,459) and should at least be a tool in your forecasting bag.

As always, I read all your postings eagerly.
Baseball is a slow, boring, complex, cerebral game that doesn't lend itself to histrionics. You 'take in' a baseball game, something odd to say about a football or basketball game, with the clock running and the bodies flying.
Charles Krauthammer

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Re: Another ADP and 'Value' Rant

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:52 am

We are totally different drafters. I've never enjoyed the game of cheating adp. I think you do.
Through the years, I've also moved away from 'tier drafting'. Those tiers are set only in our own minds. Looking at those tiers after a season leads one to believe they were insane for that type of thinking.

If being a good drafter, adp should be in your head. If drafting in the second round, we know 'the usual suspects'. They are Kipnis, Wright, Darvish, Scherzer, etc.
Whether Kipnis is adp'ed 10 spots ahead of Scherzer or not, I don't care. If I want my ace over a 2B, I'm taking my ace over a 2B.
A good drafter should KNOW others in certain rounds. A number in a data base does not have to tell us.
I know that Matt Holliday is a third-fourth round choice. Does the adp number of 46 help me in determining whether I should take Holliday?
Not really.
Each draft is different. If I feel Holliday may fit the blueprint of one team in the third round better than other players, I'll take him. If in another draft Holliday does not fit into my plan, I'll take somebody else. By myself, I may have adjusted Holliday being taken at 35 in one draft to 50 in another. What good did that 46 figure for Holliday do me?
None.

I won't go to the extreme of saying that adp is for sheep. At the same time, I don't view it as a 'necessary tool' either.
Simply, it is information.
For me, it is information that is viewed compared to my notes, and hopefully and willfully forgotten.
It is like reading Shandler or too much of another's thoughts or opinions. Soon, if listening too much, we are swayed by that person's thinking, not our own. It's human nature.
Same as going to a rally or Church and being swayed by what a speaker says.
I don't want adp drafting for me.
I don't want Shandler drafting for me.
I want me drafting for me.

In a current draft, I've taken my first two players. Both, I'm sure, will be well before their adp.
I'll get a red mark on my cheating adp report card. It doesn't matter. I got the players I wanted. And that report card is long forgotten when it comes time to cashing in.
ADP puts all drafters on an even plane. A two time National Champion's idea of where a player should be drafted is the same as the Yahoo Kids reckoning.
The good, the bad, and the ugly.
A perfect analogy since I think I'm better than at least two thirds of other drafters. And every drafter should feel that way or even more so like Gekko who feels he's better than 100 per cent of other drafters. And that is a good thing. We should feel that way.

Adp is a small step up from a mock draft. At best, we'll derive information that may help us. At worst, it misleads us.
The inclination for me, is to think it does more of the latter.
Adp is for the 'Family Feud' watchers. "SURVEY SAYS!"
Maybe they were asked, "Name the round that Yasiel Puig should be going in!"
And I'll roll my eyes at what 26 people in 100 think. They think he should go in the first round.
We later find that 64 said second round, 6, third round, 2, fourth round, 2, fifth round.
Nobody ever asks who takes those surveys.
In our neck of the woods, we know who takes the surveys, but we don't know their draft IQ's.
They are names on a Message Board page. Some recognizable, most not.
And in our own minds we're better than 67 to 100 per cent of those drafters.
Why should we care what they think?

Last, we are getting those adp's from folks who are drafting in a 50 round draft. I draft differently for 50 rounders. A lot differently. That adp is disjointed for those that will be participating in Main Drafts. Although many will think, 'It's all the same', it isn't.
We draft more for stability in a 50 round draft. Matt Kemp could see as much as a 15 point increase for Main Drafts than he would for 50 rounders. Same as Ben Zobrist because of positionality.
Drafters in 30 round drafts 'shoot for the moon' more than 50 rounders. They know if they miss, they have the safety net of FAAB. 50 round drafters don't have that luxury.
Adp is skewed from the beginning.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

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Edwards Kings
Posts: 5910
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Location: Duluth, Georgia

Re: Another ADP and 'Value' Rant

Post by Edwards Kings » Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:29 am

Hmmm...to bad he passed away...we could use another facilitator...

Image
Baseball is a slow, boring, complex, cerebral game that doesn't lend itself to histrionics. You 'take in' a baseball game, something odd to say about a football or basketball game, with the clock running and the bodies flying.
Charles Krauthammer

DOUGHBOYS
Posts: 13091
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:00 pm

Re: Another ADP and 'Value' Rant

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:31 am

HA! I wouldn't want to be kissed by him though!!!
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

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