Confusion Over Jolbert Cabrera

Cellar Dwellers · Post by **Cellar Dwellers** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:54 pm

Dyv-I'm kind of surprised that if you have Cabrera in your NFBC and obviously value him, why you weren't freaking out wondering where he was on the AL free agent list. You're certainly a smart guy, I could tell that from your posts from day 1. But wouldn't you be looking to bid on Cabrera and trying to find out why he wasn't in the free agent pool on Sunday? I know you said you were away all weekend but I'm pretty sure you would have gotten yourself up to speed on trades that happened before FAAB time, so I can't figure out why a guy like you, who like myself is not shy of posting on the board or contacting Greg, would not do that trying to find out where the hell Cabrera was? I certainly believe you wanted him and would have bid high considering you own him in NFBC but why were you not putting up a stink like a few of us were Sunday afternoon trying to find out where he is? Did you just assume he wouldn't be listed till the following week? Just curious what the mindset was there, that's all, thanks for being open minded about it and accepting to my side of the story.

Walla Walla · Post by **Walla Walla** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:44 am

Now that I've had a night to cool off heres my out take on this mess. First I'm not quitting if someone thought I was going to tank. It wasn't so much about Cabrera as about the process. I put alot of effort into getting him and to not get him because of problems with the STAT service was what really bothered me. For the money thats involved this should never happen. The other problem is the rules or lack of them. They need to take the time to sit down and write them out completely so everyone knows. Filter though the messege board and take it out and put it in one place. There was a great effort in recruiting owners. Now they need to put that same effort into putting the game together.

Cellar Dwellers · Post by **Cellar Dwellers** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 9:35 am

Sorry but I haven't cooled off. As a matter of fact after checking my roster now and seeing David McCarty has replaced Jolbert Cabrera, meaning I have spent money this week on McCarty and would have to spend money again next week to get Cabrera, that is a hit to my FAAB money that I am not willing to take. On principle, if this ruling stands, I want to be dropped from the auction league and have my entry fee returned. This is the biggest bunch of horsesh*t I have ever encountered. I can't possibly fathom how you deem this fair. Punishing someone for their tenacity is not something I want any part of. Let's see now, everyone has seen my bid for Cabrera AND I'm down $83 bucks on McCarty and would have to spend more for Cabrera next week. Yeah, that's what I get for being on top of a situation, give me a break. I cannot even believe that you decided to rule this way. It is absolutely ludicrous. Please advise if this ruling is standing or not. This is supposed to be the big time as far as fantasy baseball goes?Disgusted....

Jackstraw · Post by **Jackstraw** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:11 am

Cabrera didn't even start in the Seattle/Anaheim game...

Dyv · Post by **Dyv** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:20 pm

Originally posted by Cellar Dwellers:

Dyv-I'm kind of surprised that if you have Cabrera in your NFBC and obviously value him, why you weren't freaking out wondering where he was on the AL free agent list. You're certainly a smart guy, I could tell that from your posts from day 1. But wouldn't you be looking to bid on Cabrera and trying to find out why he wasn't in the free agent pool on Sunday? I know you said you were away all weekend but I'm pretty sure you would have gotten yourself up to speed on trades that happened before FAAB time, so I can't figure out why a guy like you, who like myself is not shy of posting on the board or contacting Greg, would not do that trying to find out where the hell Cabrera was? I certainly believe you wanted him and would have bid high considering you own him in NFBC but why were you not putting up a stink like a few of us were Sunday afternoon trying to find out where he is? Did you just assume he wouldn't be listed till the following week? Just curious what the mindset was there, that's all, thanks for being open minded about it and accepting to my side of the story. That's exactly it - I figured he'd be on next week's FA list. I got back into town Sunday morning, so I was available all day to catch up on trade issues and was looking for Jolbert since I had heard of the trade the day before anyway.

I assumed since he wasn't in the mix that he'd be in for the next week. Maybe that saved me a couple hundred FA bucks if he doesn't get any PT, maybe it cost me a couple hundred more if he's named the starter AND Spiezio gets hit by a bus... either way I didn't think about calling in to check - figured the system would catch up for next week and so be it.

This is a silly question CD - but let me ask it anyway...

If the system had screwed up and let you pick up Alex Rodriguez from the FA list for $1 and then you had to give him back up... wouldn't you understand the technical glitch? I mean, I know this is far from the circumstances here and all - but you aren't being overtly punished in any fashion that I can determine. You aren't any worse off than had Jolbert not been put into the mix are you? I know there has been frustration and irritation, but help me with how your team is worse off if you can summarize it?

Thanks.

Oh, I should also mention - if I truly am the only AL Auction player upset about this I will withdraw my protest and let the current transactions stand. If, however, I'm the only one who is being vocal about it and there really are others who missed out then I will stand by everything on the basis of competitive fair play. I can live without Jolbert - I don't want to, mind you, but if people are going to go out on a limb and state that he's a life or death deal maker/competition breaker for them and they'd just as soon walk away? Wow - I thought there couldn't possibly be someone else who liked him as much as I did. Or maybe the drama is deep... I dunno.

I'd even settle for a coin toss if you guys will abide by it's determination

I do see both sides - so my postion is to side with what seems the most fair resolution.

Dave

Cellar Dwellers · Post by **Cellar Dwellers** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:31 pm

Good post Dyv. I appreciate your comments about if you're the only one upset you'd let the transactions stand. It's good to see that you and a guy like Jackstraw who in a different way is supportive even though he did bid on Cabrera and didn't get him, feels the transaction should stand. As far as the ARod situation you posed, if ARod was traded to the National league on Saturday and didn't show up as a free agent until Sunday at 6:58pm and I put in a dollar bid for him and got him, then yes I would take the same stance. As for me not being worse off if Cabrera hadn't been put in the pool, I think you're missing something here. I now have an $83 McCarty that I only wanted if I didn't get Cabrera. Now I've taken an $83 hit that right now doesn't mean anything because I would have spent $84 on Cabrera but next week will mean a tremendous amount because I still would want Cabrera and would have no place to put him except in McCarty's spot which means I wasted that $83 and would again have to bid a high amount(probably higher now with all the attention this has gotten)on Cabrera. So we're talking about throwing away about $100 of FAAB money(The 83 on McCarty and the additional amount on top of the 84 that was last week's bid on Cabrera that I'd have to make this week) I don't care if that let's everyone know what I would have bid on Cabrera this coming week because I have no intention of staying in the league if this isn't reversed. By the way I do like him as much as you do but it's more than that. It's the principle of the thing. I was on the phone with Greg that afternoon and I told him exactly who I wanted and when I got my bid in right at 7pm he said and I understood, that he thought it would only be fair to extend the deadline till 8pm and email everyone so that they would have a chance to get him and not just the 2 or 3 people who got in on that minute or two deadline for Cabrera. So what did I do wrong? I covered my ass on every angle and Greg still gave people an extra hour and for this I start out with a deficit in FAAB money and everyone else knowing what my bid was, that's where I'm worse off. I'm not going to have any part of it. Frankly I'm completely shocked that Cabrera is not on my team today and deeply disappointed in Greg. It's like a double whammy to me, not only do I not get Cabrera for all of my efforts but I lose out $100 FAAB money. It would be a complete injustice if it stands. I know I'm right about this and I'm sticking by my convictions. I think I've said enough on this subject, I don't want to bore the rest of the readers and I'm pretty worn out by the whole issue. Thanks for seeing both sides though.

Walla Walla · Post by **Walla Walla** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 3:20 pm

Remember the other player that wasn't added Saturday? His name is Jason Romano an infielder

with Tampa Bay now. Guess what? He's still not listed as a free agent. This is going to be a long year! Dave, espn seems pretty good these days compare to this. Doesn't it.

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 3:34 pm

Jason Romano was only added to the roster today. Charles Gipson was designated for assignment this afternoon to make room for Romano, so it's quite understandable that he does not yet appear.

If he's not on the list by Sunday, Walla and Cellar will be out in the streets carrying torches and pitchforks.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:47 am

I do not want a public debate with Cellar Dwellars as we've had long telephone conversations about this already, but I do want to address the conditional bid complaint he has here. When you make a conditional bid, you are doing that with the thought that you are not getting your primary player. In this case, CD knew that there was a chance that someone else could have outbid him for Cabrera and thus he bid for David McCarty as well. The price he put on that bid was his choice and he did outbid one other owner for McCarty. Had he bid lower, he might not have gotten him. So to say this ruling FORCED him to get McCarty isn't correct as nobody should ever assume that they will have the high bid for their primary player.

I am not debating that my ruling forced him to get his conditional bid accepted, just that the price you put on a conditional bid is your decision and reflects how badly you need to fill that hole in your lineup.

I will personally contact CD and Walla Walla and ask for a phone conversation to clear the air rather than have a public debate here. I will accept the displeasure in this ruling as it was an unfortunate situation for both AL Auction Leagues and move on. I hope all of the Auction League owners do the same.

Cellar Dwellers · Post by **Cellar Dwellers** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:48 am

STILL missing the point Greg. The conditional bid on McCarty was with the understanding that the only way I was getting McCarty was IF I was outbid on Cabrera, thus meaning that Cabrera would be on another team and NOT available this coming week. How do you keep missing this very important point. I've spent $83 on McCarty now and would again have to spend on Cabrera this week if I was in the league. McCarty should have only been mine if I was outbid on Cabrera with the understanding from you that Cabrera was in the pool LAST week and not this coming week. If you don't see this I don't know what the hell else to say, cause I am done on this subject. I am not going to be penalized with a FAAB deficit for doing nothing wrong. Once again, only one of two players were going to be on my team, Cabrera or McCarty, and only McCarty if I was outbid on Cabrera, not having Cabrera thrown back into the pool. This is wrong and I'm not going to have any part of it.

Jon_Ashton · Post by **Jon_Ashton** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 9:57 am

Cellar,

Your argument clearly is a sound one. It's easy to see why Greg would have no interest in trying to defend the logic in his ruling here. His ruling in this case gives me little confidence in his ability to make fair and appropriate rulings in the future.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 11:51 am

Jon, you've had your message delivered in three different areas and now everyone knows that you have no faith in me. Fine, move on. I have explained my reasoning in telephone conversations with both parties that were affected in this situation and we handled this privately. Cellar Dwellars may not fully see the reasoning behind my ruling, but we talked it through as I did with Walla Walla and everyone has moved forward and are willing to compete for the AL Auction League titles over the next 25 weeks. Thanks for getting involved in a situation you're not even competing in, but honestly the three of us handled this privately and didn't need to discuss it further on this forum. We have all agreed to move on and remember Jolbert Cabrera forever. He remains in the AL Auction League free agent pool for Week 2.

Cellar Dwellers · Post by **Cellar Dwellers** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 12:12 pm

I can concur with that. I don't really overall agree with the ruling but Greg made some concessions and I did as well and it's in the past. Now, do you think Cabrera may even get an at bat this week for crying out loud?? Doesn't look like he's going to be anything more than a pinch hitter.

Walla Walla · Post by **Walla Walla** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 6:07 am

Jon, I also agree with Greg. Its over and done with. I think your trying to stir up things for the fun of causing trouble. Let it drop.

Jon_Ashton · Post by **Jon_Ashton** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 8:16 am

I wasn't stirring things up for the fun of it.

As to the point of I wasn't involved in the situation: My main problem is two-fold with Greg's actions as commissioner, in general, and this particular decision is very illustrative.

1) Value the written rule! Get all rules written as fully as possible for all to see and understand and follow the written rule without exception.

2) The best attribute of a commish is to anticipate as many potential problems in advance as possible and take all steps possible to avoid them.

I think part of my problem with Greg's "on-the-fly" message board rulings, as I think of them, all along is because my personal style as a commissioner is very different from Greg's. I follow the above 2 to the extreme. I don't think Greg values the written rule nearly highly enough, and I think he tends to disregard #2 also, preferring to wait for problems to arise, then deal with them by making up new rules on the fly (disregarding the written rules and extending deadlines or whatever).

Maybe Greg's style could work with 12 close buddies playing for peanuts. Maybe in that case, it'd be best to relax and deal with situations as they come up, but certainly not here! I just don't think he can get away without adopting my style eventually. Unfortunately, he already has screwed some things up.

The mistakes he made in this particular case illustrate exactly the issues that have been bugging me. You can't just disregard the written rules and extend deadlines (no matter what)! You can't just add a new rule that wasn't in place at the time of the problem arising, because in retrospect it would've been the appropriate rule to have in place, except for the fact you hadn't thought of it and put it in place in advance! If the rules said the bidding deadline was at 7:00 and Cabrera was bid on before 7:00, he has to go to that team. There cannot be any applying of newly-added rules after the fact! If Greg doesn't realize that in this case, he is likely to repeat his mistakes in the Main Event which I am in. Why not try to point out his errors to him now, so he doesn't repeat them? Unfortunately, he seems determined to move on without having learned anything from his serious mistakes.

Walla Walla · Post by **Walla Walla** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 9:10 am

Jon, So the main problem is you think the only way to do something is the way you do it. Got news for you theres many ways to do many things.

No one way is the right way including running a league. Sure you could write a rule book that weighs 20lbs but you still could not cover everything that might come up. The idea of a don't drop list was brought up. This has its draw backs too. An owner might actually be able to improve his team by dropping a no drop player and picking up a free agent. What if he was way ahead in steals and wanted to increase his power for the end run? He couldn't do it with the no drop rule. I'd rather have someone making a ruling who would be able to see what your doing instead of a blanket rule that prevents it.

viper · Post by **viper** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 12:38 pm

Greg made a mistake in extending the deadline. He was faced with the need to make an immediate decision and he made what seemed to be correct. Later, he realized that he should have done something else - like declare Cabrara as being added too late. He admitted it but that's water over the damn. He then made a good faith attempt to determine just what was fair. I think he made the right final decision given the circumstances. He has now clarified the rule on FAAB pickups. By setting a final time that free agents can be added to the data base each week (5pm Sunday), he pretty much elimates this problem. Every first year event has startup problems. It doesn't matter how hard you try to anticipate every circumstance, you can't. There are 195 owners looking to push the rules to the edge in order to find some slight advantage. This is especially true when you put together an event with some unusual rules. FAAB bidding, inability to have open spots in your lineup, moderately strict eligibility requirements and a stat service which has its own quirks - all these things can make for a difficult first month. I may have ragged on Greg at times over things and will continue to do so when it comes to rules clarifications but I feel that Greg has done one hell of a good job. He may have lost a dozen owner who are upset but his availability to answer quetsions and attempts at fairness will more than replace those disgruntled owners.

Bama · Post by **Bama** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 12:43 pm

I'll have to agree with Jon and say this was not the right ruling and i have also lost faith in Greg to make proper rulings in the future. the problem started with Stats but it has screwed up the leagues and thats not a good thing