For the next few days, leading up to Monday when new inductees are voted into the Hall of Fame, there will be a collection of write ups for candidates.
These write ups are a collaborative effort of Russel (Navel Lint) and myself. I hope you enjoy.
The relief pitcher in early baseball was a necessary evil. A pitcher that HAD to be called out of the bullpen due to the starter failing or getting hurt. Back in the day, it was the starters game. Relievers, for the most part, were aspiring starters. In 1926, Grover Cleveland Alexander put the relief pitcher on the map. Unusual since he was a starter. In Game six of the Series he threw a complete game victory to tie the Series vs. the powerful Yankees.
Then, saved game seven for the Cardinals. (I have an earlier post about this Series and Alexander, but can't find it).
Other relievers would pop up and have good-great seasons, but teams still treated the role as the ugly step-child. Hoyt Wilhelm gave the reliever a role. A pitcher called upon to get tough outs at an important part of the ball game. Before, even in close games, it was considered 'mop up'.
Since then, Roy Face, Phil Regan, Ron Perranoski. Sparky Lyle, Tug McGraw, a host of relievers have shined in the role. The years have defined the role even more by making it a one inning gig, except for the long reliever. Specialization has become the norm.
Although the pitchers mentioned above after Wilhelm were all great pitchers, they weren't Hall of Fame material.
Wilhelm, Rich Gossage, Rollie Fingers, Bruce Sutter, and Dennis Eckersley are the only relievers in the Hall.
Only Eckersley, worked as a closer. The role with which we know THE reliever now. Tony LaRussa would use Eck in games in which they led. Other Managers followed suit.
Lee Smith worked under the more modern role as well. Smith was signed by Buck O'Neill, a talent scout for the Cubs and former negro league player.
O'Neill would also sign such Cubs greats as George Altman, Billy Williams, and Ernie Banks.
Smith was a seven time All-Star. He led the National League in saves three times. The American League once.
He had 478 saves and was the all time leader till passed by Trevor Hoffman and Mariano Rivera.
94 of those saves were of at least two innings.
Smith is among the top of his peers in every pitching category. His WAR is 30.3, behind only Rivera, Wilhelm, Hoffman, and Gossage.
This is Smith's 10th year on the ballot. He has received no higher than 47 per cent of the vote. A travesty. 75 percent is needed for induction.
This man should have a place next to the others that have already made the Hall. If not making it within the 15 year time frame, the veterans committee, most assuredly, will right another of these voters wrongs.
The voters should save them the later problem and vote for Lee Smith's inclusion Monday.
Wilhelm, Gossage, Sutter, Eckersley, and Smith would share a common bond in the Hall.
All pitched for the Chicago Cubs during their careers.
Hall of Fame Prospects
Hall of Fame Prospects
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Re: Hall of Fame Prospects
Jack Morris-
Jack Morris will almost forever be known as a 'Big Game Pitcher'. On October 27, 1991, Morris pitched the game that will be etched in fans minds forever. In the seventh game of the World Series, he hurled 10 innings of shutout ball to propel the Twins to a World Championship. That game is also in Hall of Fame voters minds.
Morris received 53% of the 75% vote needed to gain Hall entry in 2011.
Morris had 254 career wins. 42nd on the all time list. He was the winningest pitcher in the 1980's. 162 of his wins came in that decade. Morris also holds the distinction of being named the starter in more Opening Day games than any other pitcher, 14.
Morris never had a season with an E.R.A. below 3.00. In fact, only one time in his career did he get below the 3.25 mark. Even in the 'Big Games' of the post season for which he is lauded, Morris had a 3.80 E.R.A. That is counting the 10 inning gem. Morris lifetime E.R.A. is one that would make him tough to draft in an 'All time Career' Draft. That lifetime E.R.A. is 3.90.
If voted in, he would have the highest lifetime E.R.A. of any pitcher in the Hall of Fame.
His k/inn ratio was below 7/9 for his career. Only notching over 200 strike outs in three seasons. He led the league in wild pitches six times and ranks eighth in lifetime wild pitches.
Let's compare Morris to a pitcher Not in the Hall of Fame.
A pitcher who threw for the Twins a generation before Morris, Jim Kaat.
Morris had 254 wins. Kaat 283 wins.
Morris had 2478 strike outs. Kaat had 2461
Morris a 1.30 WHIP. Kaat, 1.26
Morris E.R.A. OF 3.90 vs. Kaat's 3.45
The major difference in voters minds is Morris marvelous effort in game seven. It isn't enough.
Morris comes up short for credentials to enter the Hall. A solid big league pitcher. A career for which any starting pitcher can aspire. Just not a Hall of Fame hurler.
Jack Morris will almost forever be known as a 'Big Game Pitcher'. On October 27, 1991, Morris pitched the game that will be etched in fans minds forever. In the seventh game of the World Series, he hurled 10 innings of shutout ball to propel the Twins to a World Championship. That game is also in Hall of Fame voters minds.
Morris received 53% of the 75% vote needed to gain Hall entry in 2011.
Morris had 254 career wins. 42nd on the all time list. He was the winningest pitcher in the 1980's. 162 of his wins came in that decade. Morris also holds the distinction of being named the starter in more Opening Day games than any other pitcher, 14.
Morris never had a season with an E.R.A. below 3.00. In fact, only one time in his career did he get below the 3.25 mark. Even in the 'Big Games' of the post season for which he is lauded, Morris had a 3.80 E.R.A. That is counting the 10 inning gem. Morris lifetime E.R.A. is one that would make him tough to draft in an 'All time Career' Draft. That lifetime E.R.A. is 3.90.
If voted in, he would have the highest lifetime E.R.A. of any pitcher in the Hall of Fame.
His k/inn ratio was below 7/9 for his career. Only notching over 200 strike outs in three seasons. He led the league in wild pitches six times and ranks eighth in lifetime wild pitches.
Let's compare Morris to a pitcher Not in the Hall of Fame.
A pitcher who threw for the Twins a generation before Morris, Jim Kaat.
Morris had 254 wins. Kaat 283 wins.
Morris had 2478 strike outs. Kaat had 2461
Morris a 1.30 WHIP. Kaat, 1.26
Morris E.R.A. OF 3.90 vs. Kaat's 3.45
The major difference in voters minds is Morris marvelous effort in game seven. It isn't enough.
Morris comes up short for credentials to enter the Hall. A solid big league pitcher. A career for which any starting pitcher can aspire. Just not a Hall of Fame hurler.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Re: Hall of Fame Prospects
Edgar Martinez-
'A hitter may be designated to hit for the starting pitcher and all subsequent pitchers that follow in any game without otherwise affecting the status of the pitchers in the game'
And so was born the designated hitter.
Since its adoption by the American League in 1973, the American League has had a higher average every year over the National League. An idea to increase hitting that filled the bill.
There are no 'true' designated hitters. Every designated hitter played a position at lower levels and at the big league level. But, some are more hitterish than others. Such is the case for Edgar Martinez.
Martinez was never known as a glove man and when injuries took him out of the Mariners lineup more often that not, the role awaited him. He lit it up. He is the only designated hitter to lead the league in hitting, batting .356 in 1995. From 1995-2000, Martinez never batted under .320. Remarkable, in that he would be timed from home plate to first base with a sundial.
Martinez could hit.
He is the epitome of the position.
Since, they've named the Outstanding Designated Award in his name.
Martinez also holds the distinction of having a hit that may have saved the franchise. Or, as Seattle fans simply call it, 'The Double'.
Behind 5-4, in the 1995 playoffs, Martinez hit a two run scoring double off of the Yankees Jack McDowell in the deciding game to win that Series for the Mariners.
Before, it was thought that the Mariners would be moved. But, emotional after the victory, Washington State fans implored state officials to pass funding for SafeCo Field.
Martinez tops all designated hitters with his .312 batting average.
He is 22nd on the all time obp list at .418, second among dh's to Frank Thomas' .419
He is third in slugging among dh's behind Thomas and David Ortiz.
Hall of Famer Paul Molitor has these credentials-
.306 avg, 234 home runs and 1307 rbi
.312/309/and 1261 rbi for Martinez.
In his first year of eligibility, Martinez garnered over 36% of the 75% needed for induction.
Martinez already has a resume that can't be beat.
Name another player who has his position's award named after him, who also helped his city keep their baseball franchise?
36% is a good starting point, but Edgar Martinez deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.
Now.
'A hitter may be designated to hit for the starting pitcher and all subsequent pitchers that follow in any game without otherwise affecting the status of the pitchers in the game'
And so was born the designated hitter.
Since its adoption by the American League in 1973, the American League has had a higher average every year over the National League. An idea to increase hitting that filled the bill.
There are no 'true' designated hitters. Every designated hitter played a position at lower levels and at the big league level. But, some are more hitterish than others. Such is the case for Edgar Martinez.
Martinez was never known as a glove man and when injuries took him out of the Mariners lineup more often that not, the role awaited him. He lit it up. He is the only designated hitter to lead the league in hitting, batting .356 in 1995. From 1995-2000, Martinez never batted under .320. Remarkable, in that he would be timed from home plate to first base with a sundial.
Martinez could hit.
He is the epitome of the position.
Since, they've named the Outstanding Designated Award in his name.
Martinez also holds the distinction of having a hit that may have saved the franchise. Or, as Seattle fans simply call it, 'The Double'.
Behind 5-4, in the 1995 playoffs, Martinez hit a two run scoring double off of the Yankees Jack McDowell in the deciding game to win that Series for the Mariners.
Before, it was thought that the Mariners would be moved. But, emotional after the victory, Washington State fans implored state officials to pass funding for SafeCo Field.
Martinez tops all designated hitters with his .312 batting average.
He is 22nd on the all time obp list at .418, second among dh's to Frank Thomas' .419
He is third in slugging among dh's behind Thomas and David Ortiz.
Hall of Famer Paul Molitor has these credentials-
.306 avg, 234 home runs and 1307 rbi
.312/309/and 1261 rbi for Martinez.
In his first year of eligibility, Martinez garnered over 36% of the 75% needed for induction.
Martinez already has a resume that can't be beat.
Name another player who has his position's award named after him, who also helped his city keep their baseball franchise?
36% is a good starting point, but Edgar Martinez deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.
Now.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Re: Hall of Fame Prospects
Don Mattingly-
This one will be different. The only player that Russel and I disagree on as to whether Hall of Fame worthy.
My perspective is that Don Mattingly will not get into the Hall of Fame. He does not have Hall of Fame numbers. Simple as that. It is Russel's opinion too, but that is where the agreement ends.
During his hey day from 1984-87, here are some comparables (shuddup spellchecker, that should be a word! And shuddup about shuddup too!)
Strawberry- 121 hr/373 rbi/.372 obp
Dwight Evans- 121 hr/402 rbi/.390 obp
Mattingly- 119 hr/ 483 rbi/ .381 obp
And certainly, Strawberry and Evans will never get entrance to the Hall.
Now here, let me throw a change up. In Russel's notes to me there are notes and reasons why Mattingly should not gain entry into the Hall. All are correct. In fact, Russel is correct. If using only numbers, Mattingly should not get into the Hall of Fame.
And with the rise of folks playing fantasy baseball, numerish is the preferred language when speaking of players going into the Hall. When most of these players played, WAR, ERA+, and babip were still letters, not letters representing numbers.
Heck, I still think Vada Pinson should be in the Hall. His numbers are close though and close only counts with grenades and horseshoes, not the Hall.
BUT, and besides mine, there is always a big but, it should not be 100% about numbers.
It is sheer travesty that Gil Hodges is not in the Hall of Fame. Alongside Duke Snider, he was the face of a fondly remembered franchise, the Brooklyn Dodgers. Back then we could count on three things. The milk being delivered, the mail being delivered, and Gil Hodges delivering.
Same thing with Mattingly. He played first base like it was a harp. He won nine gold gloves. He was an MVP. He was the backbone of a franchise. Yet, he will get little consideration. Baseball was Don Mattingly and Don Mattingly was Donnie Baseball.
There is a crevice between guys like Mattingly and the Hall. One that needs to be closed
Maybe we need a 'sub-wing' to the Hall of Fame. A room where fellas like Hodges, and Pinson, and Evans, and Mattingly get to at least mingle with the Hall of Famers. Because on the field, they stood toe to toe with them. Equal with them. But, because of some numbers, they are not.
In some cases, the personalities and glove work, and overall efforts should override mere numbers.
Don Mattingly IS a Hall of Famer. He won't be voted in. But, to all those that saw him play, they know better.
This one will be different. The only player that Russel and I disagree on as to whether Hall of Fame worthy.
My perspective is that Don Mattingly will not get into the Hall of Fame. He does not have Hall of Fame numbers. Simple as that. It is Russel's opinion too, but that is where the agreement ends.
During his hey day from 1984-87, here are some comparables (shuddup spellchecker, that should be a word! And shuddup about shuddup too!)
Strawberry- 121 hr/373 rbi/.372 obp
Dwight Evans- 121 hr/402 rbi/.390 obp
Mattingly- 119 hr/ 483 rbi/ .381 obp
And certainly, Strawberry and Evans will never get entrance to the Hall.
Now here, let me throw a change up. In Russel's notes to me there are notes and reasons why Mattingly should not gain entry into the Hall. All are correct. In fact, Russel is correct. If using only numbers, Mattingly should not get into the Hall of Fame.
And with the rise of folks playing fantasy baseball, numerish is the preferred language when speaking of players going into the Hall. When most of these players played, WAR, ERA+, and babip were still letters, not letters representing numbers.
Heck, I still think Vada Pinson should be in the Hall. His numbers are close though and close only counts with grenades and horseshoes, not the Hall.
BUT, and besides mine, there is always a big but, it should not be 100% about numbers.
It is sheer travesty that Gil Hodges is not in the Hall of Fame. Alongside Duke Snider, he was the face of a fondly remembered franchise, the Brooklyn Dodgers. Back then we could count on three things. The milk being delivered, the mail being delivered, and Gil Hodges delivering.
Same thing with Mattingly. He played first base like it was a harp. He won nine gold gloves. He was an MVP. He was the backbone of a franchise. Yet, he will get little consideration. Baseball was Don Mattingly and Don Mattingly was Donnie Baseball.
There is a crevice between guys like Mattingly and the Hall. One that needs to be closed
Maybe we need a 'sub-wing' to the Hall of Fame. A room where fellas like Hodges, and Pinson, and Evans, and Mattingly get to at least mingle with the Hall of Famers. Because on the field, they stood toe to toe with them. Equal with them. But, because of some numbers, they are not.
In some cases, the personalities and glove work, and overall efforts should override mere numbers.
Don Mattingly IS a Hall of Famer. He won't be voted in. But, to all those that saw him play, they know better.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
-
Captain Hook
- Posts: 2066
- Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:00 pm
- Location: Valley of the Sun
- Contact:
Re: Hall of Fame Prospects
Dan while Donnie Baseball was great to watch for a few years, even Mattingly himself says he shouldn't be in the HOF
PS - like the real estate industry just use comps for comparables
PS - like the real estate industry just use comps for comparables
Re: Hall of Fame Prospects
I know.
I'm on the plank and most everybody else is in the ship on this one.
You and Russel are right on this one.
Still, there is the romanticism (hey! that's a word!) and the outright feel of playing baseball the way it should be played. The only way to honor players like that is with the Hall of Fame.
Mattingly's career and Hodges career should be more than, 'Hey, they were good, weren't they!
As of now, that's all they get.
I'm on the plank and most everybody else is in the ship on this one.
You and Russel are right on this one.
Still, there is the romanticism (hey! that's a word!) and the outright feel of playing baseball the way it should be played. The only way to honor players like that is with the Hall of Fame.
Mattingly's career and Hodges career should be more than, 'Hey, they were good, weren't they!
As of now, that's all they get.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
-
Captain Hook
- Posts: 2066
- Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:00 pm
- Location: Valley of the Sun
- Contact:
Re: Hall of Fame Prospects
This would be my 2012 Hall of Fame ballot
Barry Larkin
Tim Raines
Jack Morris
Lee Smith
Jeff Bagwell
Unfortunately I can easily see that Larkin is the only one voted in this year.....Raines REALLY should be, he is long overdue
The others will likely not get there - too many arguments against (even if they are not good ones)
Barry Larkin
Tim Raines
Jack Morris
Lee Smith
Jeff Bagwell
Unfortunately I can easily see that Larkin is the only one voted in this year.....Raines REALLY should be, he is long overdue
The others will likely not get there - too many arguments against (even if they are not good ones)
Re: Hall of Fame Prospects
Pretty decent Clubhouse Confidential last night about this. Jay Jaffe (Baseball Prospectus) Jon Heyman and Joe Sheehan on the panel. Jaffe was too married to the BP proprietary numbers, Heyman cognizant of the advanced metrics, but you can still tell he is old school and Joe, who actually mixed the two schools of thought pretty well, but you can tell he leans to the numbers a little.
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Re: Hall of Fame Prospects
The name Hall of Fame seems a bit off since it's generally argued by sportswriters that the statistically best players, at least for their time, deserve to be in and others do not. But the term "fame" relates to reputation, not stats.
On that basis a guy like Mattingly could be more deserving than others that are in. I don't know, I never cared about Yankee players and I know more of Mattingly from watching him as the Dodgers manager than as a a player (going on that alone, I'd keep him out).
With respect to some baseball history that I do know - Cubs history - Costas did a great interview recently with Fergie Jenkins, Ryne Sandberg and Andre Dawson. Those guys should have been first ballot HOFers, along with Ron Santo, if reputation meant anything to the process. I'd like to see the HOF criteria better-defined for voters - to include not just stats, but reputation and impact on the game and its fans. That would make more sense for a Hall of Fame.
On that basis a guy like Mattingly could be more deserving than others that are in. I don't know, I never cared about Yankee players and I know more of Mattingly from watching him as the Dodgers manager than as a a player (going on that alone, I'd keep him out).
With respect to some baseball history that I do know - Cubs history - Costas did a great interview recently with Fergie Jenkins, Ryne Sandberg and Andre Dawson. Those guys should have been first ballot HOFers, along with Ron Santo, if reputation meant anything to the process. I'd like to see the HOF criteria better-defined for voters - to include not just stats, but reputation and impact on the game and its fans. That would make more sense for a Hall of Fame.
Re: Hall of Fame Prospects
I'm looking forward to the Raines writeup. I can't see how he doesn't get in the next couple of years. I think Bags will get in as well. Larkin, assumedly this year.
I think relievers in the Hall will see their cutoff point with Big Lee. I don't see Smith making it and that's coming from a Cubs fan.
As for Morris, great big game pitcher but if he goes doesn't Kaat and Tommy John have to be in as well? Morris is very polarizing for a non-PED player, but I'd have to say no to him.
Like Santo, Gil Hodges will get voted in via the new Veterans Committee. I believe they vote on players like him every 3 years. I have two requests for the Veterans Committee:
1. Get Shoeless Joe in there.
2. Keep Joe Morgan out of the country when they are meeting. Such a douche in regards to this entire process.
I think relievers in the Hall will see their cutoff point with Big Lee. I don't see Smith making it and that's coming from a Cubs fan.
As for Morris, great big game pitcher but if he goes doesn't Kaat and Tommy John have to be in as well? Morris is very polarizing for a non-PED player, but I'd have to say no to him.
Like Santo, Gil Hodges will get voted in via the new Veterans Committee. I believe they vote on players like him every 3 years. I have two requests for the Veterans Committee:
1. Get Shoeless Joe in there.
2. Keep Joe Morgan out of the country when they are meeting. Such a douche in regards to this entire process.
"Luck is the residue of design."
-Branch Rickey
-Branch Rickey
Re: Hall of Fame Prospects
True, Russ said that Hall of Famers should not be in because of a great four year run, otherwise guys like Keith Hernandez and Cecil Cooper would be in. There is truth in that, at the same time the nine gold gloves extends far beyond that period and so did his achievments. I know I'm in the minority though. Russel wins this one both in theory and in practice...Captain Hook wrote:Dan while Donnie Baseball was great to watch for a few years, even Mattingly himself says he shouldn't be in the HOF
PS - like the real estate industry just use comps for comparables
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
-
Glenneration X
- Posts: 3730
- Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:00 pm
- Location: Long Island, NY
Re: Hall of Fame Prospects
This is the one part of the Hall of Fame that aggravates me. I agree that while a "great" four year run doesn't necessarily warrant induction, the Hall of Fame has become more of a Hall of Stat Compilers or a Hall of Longevity. As KJ said and I alluded to in my posts on Griffey & Bill James, impact and reputation should mean something, even more than "compiled" stats. While a "great" four year run might not mean much, being the absolute "best" in the game during that run should. Don Sutton was never even the best pitcher on his teams, yet he's in because he lasted forever. Why is being good for a long period more important than being the best for a short one? Koufax was only great for six years, yet noone ever debates his induction, because he was the best during that time. Dominance means something, no matter if it wasn't for as long as some would like. I wrote previously that we know a Hall of Famer when we watch them play. Stats should count for something, but shouldn't eliminate those who we knew qualified while watching them nor should they justify those that we knew didn't.DOUGHBOYS wrote:True, Russ said that Hall of Famers should not be in because of a great four year run, otherwise guys like Keith Hernandez and Cecil Cooper would be in. There is truth in that, at the same time the nine gold gloves extends far beyond that period and so did his achievments. I know I'm in the minority though. Russel wins this one both in theory and in practice...Captain Hook wrote:Dan while Donnie Baseball was great to watch for a few years, even Mattingly himself says he shouldn't be in the HOF
PS - like the real estate industry just use comps for comparables
Re: Hall of Fame Prospects
Tim Raines-
If he played in another era, Tim Raines may be considered the greatest lead off hitter of all time. But, that declaration has already been made by Rickey Henderson.
Besides Henderson, who do you think of when it comes to leadoff hitters?
Here is a comparison between the best leadoff hitter of the 60's and 'easy' Hall of Famer, Lou Brock.
Raines-2502 gms/ 170 hr's/ 980 rbi/ 808 sb's/ .385 OBP/ .425 slg
Brock- 2616 gms/ 149 hr's/ 900 rbi/ 938 sb's/ .343 OBP/ .410 slg
The only real difference after looking at these stats, are Brock's and Raines surroundings.
Brock played on World Series teams with Bob Gibson as the Cardinals ace.
Raines does not share that history.
The name of the game for a lead off hitter is to get on base.
Raines reached base 3, 977 times.
More than Jimmy Rollins....and Kevin Youkilis COMBINED.
Raines is 53rd on the All Time Runs Created list. The 52 ahead of him on the list are all in the Hall of Fame or eligible this year.
Raines did not have the benefit of playing on World Championship teams. This wasn't his fault.
He should not be penalized by the Hall for this either.
He should be a shoo-in. But, we are talking about voters that, at the least partly, don't get it.
If he played in another era, Tim Raines may be considered the greatest lead off hitter of all time. But, that declaration has already been made by Rickey Henderson.
Besides Henderson, who do you think of when it comes to leadoff hitters?
Here is a comparison between the best leadoff hitter of the 60's and 'easy' Hall of Famer, Lou Brock.
Raines-2502 gms/ 170 hr's/ 980 rbi/ 808 sb's/ .385 OBP/ .425 slg
Brock- 2616 gms/ 149 hr's/ 900 rbi/ 938 sb's/ .343 OBP/ .410 slg
The only real difference after looking at these stats, are Brock's and Raines surroundings.
Brock played on World Series teams with Bob Gibson as the Cardinals ace.
Raines does not share that history.
The name of the game for a lead off hitter is to get on base.
Raines reached base 3, 977 times.
More than Jimmy Rollins....and Kevin Youkilis COMBINED.
Raines is 53rd on the All Time Runs Created list. The 52 ahead of him on the list are all in the Hall of Fame or eligible this year.
Raines did not have the benefit of playing on World Championship teams. This wasn't his fault.
He should not be penalized by the Hall for this either.
He should be a shoo-in. But, we are talking about voters that, at the least partly, don't get it.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Re: Hall of Fame Prospects
Mark McGwire-
On so many levels....NO.
On so many levels....NO.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
-
Navel Lint
- Posts: 1723
- Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:00 pm
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Re: Hall of Fame Prospects
I wanted to take a moment to thank Dan for putting this thread together.
A few days ago I contacted Dan with the idea of doing something collaborative in regards to the impending Hall of Fame announcement. I did this for two reasons. First and foremost is the respect that I have for Dan and his opinions on the history of the game and its players. Secondly I knew that Dan would be able to present the information in a much more enjoyable and enlightening manner than I would.
I know all of you agree with me on the first reason; and if you had a chance to read some of the notes I sent to Dan, including a rambling dissertation about the DH, you would not question the second reason.
Unfortunately I was a little busier this weekend than I thought I would be and I didn’t get as much info to Dan as I had hoped.
Anyway, Thanks again Dan.
And to everyone else…….Enjoy the Hall of Fame announcement tomorrow.
~Russel
A few days ago I contacted Dan with the idea of doing something collaborative in regards to the impending Hall of Fame announcement. I did this for two reasons. First and foremost is the respect that I have for Dan and his opinions on the history of the game and its players. Secondly I knew that Dan would be able to present the information in a much more enjoyable and enlightening manner than I would.
I know all of you agree with me on the first reason; and if you had a chance to read some of the notes I sent to Dan, including a rambling dissertation about the DH, you would not question the second reason.
Unfortunately I was a little busier this weekend than I thought I would be and I didn’t get as much info to Dan as I had hoped.
Anyway, Thanks again Dan.
And to everyone else…….Enjoy the Hall of Fame announcement tomorrow.
~Russel
Russel -Navel Lint
"Fans don't boo nobodies"
-Reggie Jackson
"Fans don't boo nobodies"
-Reggie Jackson
Re: Hall of Fame Prospects
Right back at you, Russ.
Your notes are spot on and you don't give yourself enough credit.
It was a good collaboration and a great idea.
Your notes are spot on and you don't give yourself enough credit.
It was a good collaboration and a great idea.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Re: Hall of Fame Prospects
Jeff Bagwell-
Jeff Bagwell's inclusion to the Hall seems assured. Every year of his career was played with fellow 'Killer B', Craig Biggio. Of course, Hall of Fame voters are not sentimental that way, (Williams, Banks, SANTO), (Snider, Reese, HODGES) A player must get in on their own merits.
Bagwell more than qualifies by sheer numbers alone.
From 1991-2004, he never had less than 80 rbi. His OBP for his career was a whopping .408
Bagwell's best year may have come during the shortest year. The baseball strike-shortened year of 1994.
He batted .368, hit 39 homers, drove in 116 runs, and scored 104 runs, and also managed to steal 15 bases.
He did all that in just 400 at bats! He was the unanimous Most Valuable Player that year. He would later add a second and third place in MVP voting.
Bagwell had nine seasons of over 30 home runs. Nine seasons with 100 runs. Eight seasons with over 100 rbi.
He was also unusual in that he had speed for a 1b. He never had a season with less than six stolen bases and twice stole more than 30.
Lets do a comparison of Banks with another 1b from a hitting generation.
Another 'Killer B', Ernie Banks.
Banks- 512 home runs, 1636 rbi, 1305 runs, .274 avg, 385 OBP
Bagwell- 449 home runs, 1529 rbi, 1517 runs, .297 avg, 408 OBP
Last year, in his first year of eligibility, Bagwell received over 40 per cent of the 75 per cent of votes needed.
Bagwell is a Hall of Famer...the voters just don't know it yet.
Jeff Bagwell's inclusion to the Hall seems assured. Every year of his career was played with fellow 'Killer B', Craig Biggio. Of course, Hall of Fame voters are not sentimental that way, (Williams, Banks, SANTO), (Snider, Reese, HODGES) A player must get in on their own merits.
Bagwell more than qualifies by sheer numbers alone.
From 1991-2004, he never had less than 80 rbi. His OBP for his career was a whopping .408
Bagwell's best year may have come during the shortest year. The baseball strike-shortened year of 1994.
He batted .368, hit 39 homers, drove in 116 runs, and scored 104 runs, and also managed to steal 15 bases.
He did all that in just 400 at bats! He was the unanimous Most Valuable Player that year. He would later add a second and third place in MVP voting.
Bagwell had nine seasons of over 30 home runs. Nine seasons with 100 runs. Eight seasons with over 100 rbi.
He was also unusual in that he had speed for a 1b. He never had a season with less than six stolen bases and twice stole more than 30.
Lets do a comparison of Banks with another 1b from a hitting generation.
Another 'Killer B', Ernie Banks.
Banks- 512 home runs, 1636 rbi, 1305 runs, .274 avg, 385 OBP
Bagwell- 449 home runs, 1529 rbi, 1517 runs, .297 avg, 408 OBP
Last year, in his first year of eligibility, Bagwell received over 40 per cent of the 75 per cent of votes needed.
Bagwell is a Hall of Famer...the voters just don't know it yet.
Last edited by DOUGHBOYS on Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Re: Hall of Fame Prospects
A write-up was going to be done on Barry Larkin.
But, anytime I turn on MLB or ESPN or the like, they are doing a better job of promoting Larkin than I ever could.
With this push from the press, Larkin is assured of getting voted in today.
But, anytime I turn on MLB or ESPN or the like, they are doing a better job of promoting Larkin than I ever could.
With this push from the press, Larkin is assured of getting voted in today.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Re: Hall of Fame Prospects
I'm a "Big Hall" guy so if I could vote I'd vote for 10 guys.
Barry Larkin
Tim Raines
Jeff Bagwell
Lee Smith
Edgar Martinez
Alan Tramell - Personally, I don't think you can vote for Larkin on this ballot and NOT for Trammell (although most will)
Fred McGriff
Jack Morris
Rafael Palmiero
Mark McGuire
I vote for these two known PED users since I think their numbers say they are deserving HOF candidates, and as such need to stay on the ballot until the era gets even more perspective. I have two players in Bagwell and Martinez who played in the same era, but never got caught up in the web of steroids, but does that mean they were clean? Would anyone be surprised if it suddenly came out that Roberto Alomar was a roids users? Look at how his career fell of a cliff in his mid 30's.
Barry Larkin
Tim Raines
Jeff Bagwell
Lee Smith
Edgar Martinez
Alan Tramell - Personally, I don't think you can vote for Larkin on this ballot and NOT for Trammell (although most will)
Fred McGriff
Jack Morris
Rafael Palmiero
Mark McGuire
I vote for these two known PED users since I think their numbers say they are deserving HOF candidates, and as such need to stay on the ballot until the era gets even more perspective. I have two players in Bagwell and Martinez who played in the same era, but never got caught up in the web of steroids, but does that mean they were clean? Would anyone be surprised if it suddenly came out that Roberto Alomar was a roids users? Look at how his career fell of a cliff in his mid 30's.
Mastersball
“You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else.” - Albert Einstein
“You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else.” - Albert Einstein
Re: Hall of Fame Prospects
No way possible for McGwire. Steroids aside, he was one dimensional.
He did one thing well, hit home runs. He hit 573 home runs, but yet his rbi are less than ANY hitter who hit even 500 home runs.
In fact, besides fellow bash brother Jose Canseco, 462 home runs, he had less rbi than any hitter with 450 home runs.
193 home runs and 417 rbi came during just a three year span when it was obvious he juiced.
He was never a team leader and the height of his accomplishments were done with a syringe.
He was Dave Kingman on steroids. A .263 lifetime avg. He just has nothing going for him besides the home runs.
But thanks for the thought of Dave Kingman on steroids.
Steroid users will eventually get in the Hall of Fame. No doubt.
And, most likely, it will be a guy like Alomar or Edgar, or Bags, or Pudge who will admit after inclusion that they indeed were helped by steroids.
Even then, I have to ask myself, who would I want at first base for my team, Don Mattingly or Mark McGwire.
I would answer Mattingly.
He did one thing well, hit home runs. He hit 573 home runs, but yet his rbi are less than ANY hitter who hit even 500 home runs.
In fact, besides fellow bash brother Jose Canseco, 462 home runs, he had less rbi than any hitter with 450 home runs.
193 home runs and 417 rbi came during just a three year span when it was obvious he juiced.
He was never a team leader and the height of his accomplishments were done with a syringe.
He was Dave Kingman on steroids. A .263 lifetime avg. He just has nothing going for him besides the home runs.
But thanks for the thought of Dave Kingman on steroids. Steroid users will eventually get in the Hall of Fame. No doubt.
And, most likely, it will be a guy like Alomar or Edgar, or Bags, or Pudge who will admit after inclusion that they indeed were helped by steroids.
Even then, I have to ask myself, who would I want at first base for my team, Don Mattingly or Mark McGwire.
I would answer Mattingly.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
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Winston's Empire
- Posts: 1068
- Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:00 pm
- Location: WISCONSIN
Re: Hall of Fame Prospects
Great HOF Write up guys! If I had a HOF Vote, these are the guys I would send to Cooperstown this year
Barry Larkin
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
All three of these guys deserve the call this afternoon and I hope they get it. Barry Larkin in my opinion should get in for sure, but Tim Raines and Lee Smith might have to wait a little longer. As for the other players discussed on this thread and all over the news, I am just not convinced either due to position or era. Time might change my opinion on a few of them (Morris and Bagwell), but the 3 players I listed above should be a shoe in in my opinion.
Should be a another great year in Cooperstown regardless, since Ron Santo is finally heading there!
Barry Larkin
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
All three of these guys deserve the call this afternoon and I hope they get it. Barry Larkin in my opinion should get in for sure, but Tim Raines and Lee Smith might have to wait a little longer. As for the other players discussed on this thread and all over the news, I am just not convinced either due to position or era. Time might change my opinion on a few of them (Morris and Bagwell), but the 3 players I listed above should be a shoe in in my opinion.
Should be a another great year in Cooperstown regardless, since Ron Santo is finally heading there!
My response to people trying to change my baseball loyalties.
“Being a Cubs fan is the same as having a life insurance policy… It makes no sense to cancel it early!”
Cubs Fan Since 1987
“Being a Cubs fan is the same as having a life insurance policy… It makes no sense to cancel it early!”
Cubs Fan Since 1987
Re: Hall of Fame Prospects
Don't disagree with that. But unfortunately I don't agree that Mattingly should get a "what-might-have been-if -not for-injuries"DOUGHBOYS wrote:No way possible for McGwire. Steroids aside, he was one dimensional.
Even then, I have to ask myself, who would I want at first base for my team, Don Mattingly or Mark McGwire.
I would answer Mattingly.
election. If Mattingly is a HOF'er, then so is Keith Hernandez. Hernandez has the MVP, was an even better defensive 1B than Mattingly (maybe the BEST ever) and help lead two teams to iconic WS titles.
Mastersball
“You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else.” - Albert Einstein
“You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else.” - Albert Einstein
Re: Hall of Fame Prospects
I know I'm bordering on the 'Well, why don't we just let everybody in' replies 
but I would not be hurt in the least to see Keith Hernandez in the Hall. The Hall discounts defensive prowess except in the case of Ozzie Smith. Why is his position more important than Hernandez?
I agree also, that Hernandez may have been the best ever. Offensively, he did everything well, but nothing outstanding. To me, Mattingly and Hernandez getting into the Hall would be a great thing for baseball and fans.
McGwire, eh, no.
but I would not be hurt in the least to see Keith Hernandez in the Hall. The Hall discounts defensive prowess except in the case of Ozzie Smith. Why is his position more important than Hernandez? I agree also, that Hernandez may have been the best ever. Offensively, he did everything well, but nothing outstanding. To me, Mattingly and Hernandez getting into the Hall would be a great thing for baseball and fans.
McGwire, eh, no.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Re: Hall of Fame Prospects
RE: Bagwell (sorry if someone else made this point and I missed it)
If someone like Larry Walker has to pay the Coors tax and have his numbers discounted, Bagwell should be given extra credit for calling the Astrodome home for so many years. It was PETCO before PETCO was PETCO.
If someone like Larry Walker has to pay the Coors tax and have his numbers discounted, Bagwell should be given extra credit for calling the Astrodome home for so many years. It was PETCO before PETCO was PETCO.
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Winston's Empire
- Posts: 1068
- Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:00 pm
- Location: WISCONSIN
Re: Hall of Fame Prospects
That is a GREAT point Todd that I for one didn't take into consideration. Hmmmm Interesting for sure...ToddZ wrote:RE: Bagwell (sorry if someone else made this point and I missed it)
If someone like Larry Walker has to pay the Coors tax and have his numbers discounted, Bagwell should be given extra credit for calling the Astrodome home for so many years. It was PETCO before PETCO was PETCO.
Bags could rock a ball to Right Field, thats for sure!
My response to people trying to change my baseball loyalties.
“Being a Cubs fan is the same as having a life insurance policy… It makes no sense to cancel it early!”
Cubs Fan Since 1987
“Being a Cubs fan is the same as having a life insurance policy… It makes no sense to cancel it early!”
Cubs Fan Since 1987