Baseball has changed. We are in a post-steroidal gangbang era, where pitchers are dominant. Some writers have not changed with the times. I get a personal snarl on my lips when I read this, "He takes a lot of walks which bodes well for him."
Wait, let me compose myself....
WALKING DOES NOT MAKE GOOD HITTERS!!!
ESPECIALLY IN FANTASY BASEBALL!!!
Ok, alright, composed.
Unless my player is a speedster, a walk is usually as good as a strike out to me. Sure, he may score a run or two, but for the most part, a walk is just a waste of my time and my batters time.
You don't believe me.
Ok, let's take ....
Carlos Santana
Jose Bautista
Matt Carpenter
Giancarlo Stanton
Freddie Freeman
Brian Dozier
Andrew McCutchen
Jayson Werth
Mike Trout
Adam LaRoche
These fellas are all really good hitters. Most, will be taken in the first five rounds of a draft.
They lead the league in walks last year. Some, like Santana, Carpenter, and Dozier love taking pitches. Some, like McCutchen, Bautista, Stanton, and Trout are being pitched around to face a lesser hitter.
Anyway, these guys lead baseball in walks. If in an OBP league, take them.
We're not in an OBP league though. It's fair to say that we want to see all these guys hit the ball and not get walked. Especially since Trout seems a little less interested in stealing bases.
As a group, they hit .276
Now, lets go to the Dark Side of the base on balls. The HITTERS who don't like walking....
Ben Revere
Adam Jones
Aramis Ramirez
Josh Harrison
Sal Perez
Torii Hunter
Alex Rios
Alcides Escobar
Chris Johnson
Alexie Ramirez
There is more speed here. Pitchers do not like walking speed. A hanging curve over the plate is preferred to ball four for most speed hitters.
Besides Adam Jones, there are no hitters here that a pitcher would particularly fear.
These fellas get a bad rap because pitchers WANT them to hit the ball. Sure, guys like Jones, Ramirez, Perez, and Johnson help them along with their Will Rogers, 'Never met a pitch, I didn't like' mentality.
For the most part, these fellas are going to see more strikes.
And, it would probably startle some that the top 10 in walks hit .276 and these fellas on the bottom hit .283 as a group.
Jose Altuve had over 700 plate appearances and hit .341
He walked just 36 times.
Ian Kinsler walked only 29 times.
Who wants to walk Kinsler with Hunter, Miggy, and VMart behind him?
Sometimes, these writers forget that power lays in the hands of the pitchers. Not hitters.
And that walking does not automatically make a hitter, a better hitter.
As for the category of RUNS. Don't believe that a walker is a scorer.
The aforementioned Kinsler still scored 100 runs.
Santana, who had 125 hits, 113 walks, and 27 home runs scored, get this, just 68 times.
Circumstances and hitting account for Runs scored more than a fella who can take a walk.
Taking a walk has even made one hitter turn from Hall of Fame material to just another player.
My old friend Joey Votto.
In Votto's first three full years, he hit 24, 25, and 37 homers. As pitchers discovered how good of a hitter he was, his walks started going up as well,59, 70, 91.
Something happened to Votto in 2011. He fell in love with taking a pitch. Only picking on pitches that were pleasing to him.
He still had a fine year as pitchers were slow to catch on to Votto's new game.
But, in 2012, pitchers new that Votto was going to be picky.
His rbi totals, which had been in the 100's the previous two years, plummeted.
Since, Votto's rbi totals are 56, 73, and 23.
Injury has been a factor, sure.
But also, Votto has played into pitchers hands. They don't mind walking a premier hitter with runners in scoring position.
And Votto is happy to take that walk.
Votto has turned himself from a premier hitter to a premier walker.
In 2013, Votto walked 135 times. This gave him the unusual rbi/r line of 73/101. A line that Matt Carpenter would enjoy, not a power hitting third hitter in a small park.
We are a simple people.
It is easy for us to do our best caveman and say, "Strike out Bad!" "Walks Good!"
But, these aren't simple times.
All things being equal, I'd rather have Adam Jones rostered and at the plate than Joey Votto.
I get a sense that Jones wet dream would be to hit a low fast ball over the center field fence.
Votto's wet dream?
An intentional walk.
Walk Like A Man...(Not Like Votto)
Walk Like A Man...(Not Like Votto)
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
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Edwards Kings
- Posts: 5910
- Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 6:00 pm
- Location: Duluth, Georgia
Re: Walk Like A Man...(Not Like Votto)
From Wikipedia:
"A whipping boy was a young boy who was assigned to a young prince and was punished when the prince misbehaved or fell behind in his schooling. Whipping boys were established in the English court during the monarchies of the 15th century and 16th centuries. They were created because of the idea of the divine right of kings, which stated that kings were appointed by God, and implied that no one but the king was worthy of punishing the king’s son. Since the king was rarely around to punish his son when necessary, tutors to the young prince found it extremely difficult to enforce rules or learning."
Joey Votto is your whipping boy, Dan, and the "art" of the walk the cane. Just remember:
"Whipping boys were generally of high status, and were educated with the prince from birth. Because the prince and whipping boy grew up together they usually formed a strong emotional bond, especially since the prince usually did not have playmates as other children would have had."
So I see you embracing the walk one day even to the point that one day you may actually defend someone who uses both hits and walks to get on base.
"The strong bond that developed between a prince and his whipping boy dramatically increased the effectiveness of using a whipping boy as a form of punishment for a prince. The idea of the whipping boys was that seeing a friend being whipped or beaten for something that he had done wrong would be likely to ensure that the prince would not make the same mistake again."
I do not know why Votto has dropped off the face of the fantasy earth. I (who was and will continue to be many times) was wrong as I thought Votto was going to be in the first round discussion for years after 2010. Votto is on my mind and I am fighting the "well he says he is healthy" kool-aide. Even if he is healthy, my logical mind tells me his supporting cast is still not good (old Phillips, career year Frazier, old Byrd, .292 OBP Hamilton) which is in conflict with his "good eye", handed-ness, history of past success (not recent), and home ball park. Probably going to go too high in the drafts for me, but could be a "bargain" in an auction.
"A whipping boy was a young boy who was assigned to a young prince and was punished when the prince misbehaved or fell behind in his schooling. Whipping boys were established in the English court during the monarchies of the 15th century and 16th centuries. They were created because of the idea of the divine right of kings, which stated that kings were appointed by God, and implied that no one but the king was worthy of punishing the king’s son. Since the king was rarely around to punish his son when necessary, tutors to the young prince found it extremely difficult to enforce rules or learning."
Joey Votto is your whipping boy, Dan, and the "art" of the walk the cane. Just remember:
"Whipping boys were generally of high status, and were educated with the prince from birth. Because the prince and whipping boy grew up together they usually formed a strong emotional bond, especially since the prince usually did not have playmates as other children would have had."
So I see you embracing the walk one day even to the point that one day you may actually defend someone who uses both hits and walks to get on base.
"The strong bond that developed between a prince and his whipping boy dramatically increased the effectiveness of using a whipping boy as a form of punishment for a prince. The idea of the whipping boys was that seeing a friend being whipped or beaten for something that he had done wrong would be likely to ensure that the prince would not make the same mistake again."
I do not know why Votto has dropped off the face of the fantasy earth. I (who was and will continue to be many times) was wrong as I thought Votto was going to be in the first round discussion for years after 2010. Votto is on my mind and I am fighting the "well he says he is healthy" kool-aide. Even if he is healthy, my logical mind tells me his supporting cast is still not good (old Phillips, career year Frazier, old Byrd, .292 OBP Hamilton) which is in conflict with his "good eye", handed-ness, history of past success (not recent), and home ball park. Probably going to go too high in the drafts for me, but could be a "bargain" in an auction.
Baseball is a slow, boring, complex, cerebral game that doesn't lend itself to histrionics. You 'take in' a baseball game, something odd to say about a football or basketball game, with the clock running and the bodies flying.
Charles Krauthammer
Charles Krauthammer
Re: Walk Like A Man...(Not Like Votto)
I don't know about all that Prince and Whipping Boy stuff........
He is my whipping boy, I guess. I LOVED Votto when he hit.
What he did to change his game was to the detriment of fantasy players, his team, and more importantly, himself.
He has his big contract.
The Reds have little claim to going for a pennant.
And his three big years have folks still thinking he is a 'Star'.
He won't go back to being a slugger.
He admires fouling off a two strike pitch to induce a walk more than a first pitch homer.
Understandable, if he were a leadoff hitter.
He is my whipping boy, I guess.
He has gone from whacking pitches to whack-a-mole.
He is the equal of Dice-K. Matsuzaka would drive his pitching coaches crazy by focusing on corners instead of relying on his stuff.
Joey Votto does the same thing from a hitters perspective.
He is my whipping boy, I guess.
Announcers, color men, and studio guys all love Votto.
They regale in his 'art' of taking a pitch.
The act of taking a pitch. Art. Ugh.
I swear to God, someday, somebody is going to say that a QB taking a knee is an art.
Not everything an athlete does is art.
Art Shamsky, Art Mahaffey, THAT is art.
Joey Votto, if having the arms of Popeye, would use them to hold a purse.
If having the penis of Johnny Holmes, he would use it as a handtowel
And if having the bat of Joey Votto (oh wait, he does), he'll use to lay it down in the dirt and jog to first base.
During Votto's first three full years, he had 484 hits and 220 walks.
During Votto's last three years, Votto has 359 hits and 276 walks.
Joey Votto 1 was a damned good hitter.
Joey Votto 2 is a damned good walker.
I miss Joey Votto 1.
You know, really, he's not a whipping boy.
He's disappointment.
He has a skill that most folks would die for.
And he chooses not to use that skill.
His choice.
A choice that rankles me to no end.
He is my whipping boy, I guess. I LOVED Votto when he hit.
What he did to change his game was to the detriment of fantasy players, his team, and more importantly, himself.
He has his big contract.
The Reds have little claim to going for a pennant.
And his three big years have folks still thinking he is a 'Star'.
He won't go back to being a slugger.
He admires fouling off a two strike pitch to induce a walk more than a first pitch homer.
Understandable, if he were a leadoff hitter.
He is my whipping boy, I guess.
He has gone from whacking pitches to whack-a-mole.
He is the equal of Dice-K. Matsuzaka would drive his pitching coaches crazy by focusing on corners instead of relying on his stuff.
Joey Votto does the same thing from a hitters perspective.
He is my whipping boy, I guess.
Announcers, color men, and studio guys all love Votto.
They regale in his 'art' of taking a pitch.
The act of taking a pitch. Art. Ugh.
I swear to God, someday, somebody is going to say that a QB taking a knee is an art.
Not everything an athlete does is art.
Art Shamsky, Art Mahaffey, THAT is art.
Joey Votto, if having the arms of Popeye, would use them to hold a purse.
If having the penis of Johnny Holmes, he would use it as a handtowel
And if having the bat of Joey Votto (oh wait, he does), he'll use to lay it down in the dirt and jog to first base.
During Votto's first three full years, he had 484 hits and 220 walks.
During Votto's last three years, Votto has 359 hits and 276 walks.
Joey Votto 1 was a damned good hitter.
Joey Votto 2 is a damned good walker.
I miss Joey Votto 1.
You know, really, he's not a whipping boy.
He's disappointment.
He has a skill that most folks would die for.
And he chooses not to use that skill.
His choice.
A choice that rankles me to no end.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
-
Edwards Kings
- Posts: 5910
- Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 6:00 pm
- Location: Duluth, Georgia
Re: Walk Like A Man...(Not Like Votto)
I hear you, and you know I respect your opinion greatly, but one thing bothers me. Your assessment assumes Votto is so good, he can just turn it (it being swinging and driving the ball versus working the pitch count) or off and that he just gets giggly taking walks as opposed to driving the ball. On the one hand, a few players may be good enough to turn it on and off. There is the Ty Cobb legend, for example. From the Baseball Almanac:
"A fascinating legend that surrounds the storied career of Ty Cobb centers on the time he hit five home runs over a two-game stretch in 1925. Prior to the game against the Browns on May 5 of that year, the Georgia Peach supposedly told St. Louis Star Sports Editor Sid Keener and Detroit News Sports Editor Harry Salsinger:
"Gentlemen, pay close attention today. I'll show you something new. For the first time in my life, I will be deliberately going for home runs."
(Source: Al Stump, Algonquin Books, 01/03/1996, Cobb: A Biography, Page 361-362)
Cobb’s disdain for the post-1920 proliferation of the long ball was well-documented. In particular, he hated slugger Babe Ruth and how the Bambino had transformed the game. Cobb thought the deluge of home runs minimized the need for strategies he honed to perfection during the dead ball; skills like bunting, the hit-and-run, using the whole field, and the stolen base.
The Detroit star didn’t think it took a lot of talent to hit home runs and was convinced that his way of playing the game was vastly superior. So, as the legend goes, he took time in St. Louis to show that, if he had wanted to, he could hit a lot of homers, too.
Whether or not Cobb actually "called" his power outburst has been debated over the years but what actually happened at Sportsman's Park on those two days is a matter of record. In the 2nd inning of the May 5 game against the Browns, Tyrus Raymond smashed a pitch from Bullet Joe Bush for a long home run to right field. Later in the game, he launched a ball over the pavilion in right and added another "over-the-fence" homer in the 8th. Along with the three long balls, Cobb hit a double and two singles, finishing the day 6 for 6.
On May 6, the man from Royston slammed two more home runs, making it five round-trippers in two games.
If the legend is true, Cobb apparently thought he had proven his point and went back to what he called "real" baseball and finished the 1925 campaign with a lusty .378 average but "only" 12 home runs.
One of the people who had reportedly heard Ty Cobb predict his power surge, Sid Keener, was a respected sports journalist. He later served as the Director of Baseball’s Hall-of-Fame from 1952 to 1963 and might be considered a reliable source. One wonders if someone in the public eye like Keener, would stick to this false narrative like he did in subsequent years. If it had been proven that Cobb didn’t say those things before a game in St. Louis in 1925, Keener would have been discredited in his profession.
The other "witness" Harry Salsinger was somewhat friendly with Cobb and wrote two biographies about the ballplayer. However, just because they were on good terms doesn't necessarily mean he helped fabricate such an incredible story. Tons of people (including plenty of sportswriters) hated Cobb at the time and spinning glowing, untrue pieces about a major pain-in-the-butt was not part of the era’s zeitgeist. The story was unusual for a time when many sportswriters thought baseball would be better off without Ty Cobb.
Salsinger, like Keener, had his reputation as a journalist to think about. Was it worth risking his career to perpetrate such a big lie?
Coupled with the facts that Ty Cobb was impulsive, high strung and enormously egotistical, Keener and Salsinger's account rings true. One could easily see Cobb making such a boast and then having the talent (along with a little bit of luck) to pull it off.
Could Ty Cobb have been a big-time home run hitter had he decided to? We'll never know but based on the mountain of other offensive accomplishments credited to his name, it's certainly possible.
Even without gaudy homerun totals, Cobb was the very definition of a great baseball player.
Perhaps the greatest ever."
Not saying that what Cobb did or didn't do happened, but to place that level of ability with Votto and that Votto chose not to swing and get hits as opposed to preferring to take a walk just doesn't seem to add up. I think Votto has had a slump year and a couple of injury (some reported, some not) years. Playing at less than 100% without the confidence that you could drive the ball, then yes, take the walk. He has certainly shown he has a good eye for the strike zone. I just do not see the change to taking walks as a matter of choice or preference. It is not like he shown himself to be some kind of Ernie Pantusso who can only get on base using gimics.
So the real risk in my mind on Votto is will he be healthy ever again. My opinion (granted, not worth much) is a healthy Votto can be a fantasy stud again.
"A fascinating legend that surrounds the storied career of Ty Cobb centers on the time he hit five home runs over a two-game stretch in 1925. Prior to the game against the Browns on May 5 of that year, the Georgia Peach supposedly told St. Louis Star Sports Editor Sid Keener and Detroit News Sports Editor Harry Salsinger:
"Gentlemen, pay close attention today. I'll show you something new. For the first time in my life, I will be deliberately going for home runs."
(Source: Al Stump, Algonquin Books, 01/03/1996, Cobb: A Biography, Page 361-362)
Cobb’s disdain for the post-1920 proliferation of the long ball was well-documented. In particular, he hated slugger Babe Ruth and how the Bambino had transformed the game. Cobb thought the deluge of home runs minimized the need for strategies he honed to perfection during the dead ball; skills like bunting, the hit-and-run, using the whole field, and the stolen base.
The Detroit star didn’t think it took a lot of talent to hit home runs and was convinced that his way of playing the game was vastly superior. So, as the legend goes, he took time in St. Louis to show that, if he had wanted to, he could hit a lot of homers, too.
Whether or not Cobb actually "called" his power outburst has been debated over the years but what actually happened at Sportsman's Park on those two days is a matter of record. In the 2nd inning of the May 5 game against the Browns, Tyrus Raymond smashed a pitch from Bullet Joe Bush for a long home run to right field. Later in the game, he launched a ball over the pavilion in right and added another "over-the-fence" homer in the 8th. Along with the three long balls, Cobb hit a double and two singles, finishing the day 6 for 6.
On May 6, the man from Royston slammed two more home runs, making it five round-trippers in two games.
If the legend is true, Cobb apparently thought he had proven his point and went back to what he called "real" baseball and finished the 1925 campaign with a lusty .378 average but "only" 12 home runs.
One of the people who had reportedly heard Ty Cobb predict his power surge, Sid Keener, was a respected sports journalist. He later served as the Director of Baseball’s Hall-of-Fame from 1952 to 1963 and might be considered a reliable source. One wonders if someone in the public eye like Keener, would stick to this false narrative like he did in subsequent years. If it had been proven that Cobb didn’t say those things before a game in St. Louis in 1925, Keener would have been discredited in his profession.
The other "witness" Harry Salsinger was somewhat friendly with Cobb and wrote two biographies about the ballplayer. However, just because they were on good terms doesn't necessarily mean he helped fabricate such an incredible story. Tons of people (including plenty of sportswriters) hated Cobb at the time and spinning glowing, untrue pieces about a major pain-in-the-butt was not part of the era’s zeitgeist. The story was unusual for a time when many sportswriters thought baseball would be better off without Ty Cobb.
Salsinger, like Keener, had his reputation as a journalist to think about. Was it worth risking his career to perpetrate such a big lie?
Coupled with the facts that Ty Cobb was impulsive, high strung and enormously egotistical, Keener and Salsinger's account rings true. One could easily see Cobb making such a boast and then having the talent (along with a little bit of luck) to pull it off.
Could Ty Cobb have been a big-time home run hitter had he decided to? We'll never know but based on the mountain of other offensive accomplishments credited to his name, it's certainly possible.
Even without gaudy homerun totals, Cobb was the very definition of a great baseball player.
Perhaps the greatest ever."
Not saying that what Cobb did or didn't do happened, but to place that level of ability with Votto and that Votto chose not to swing and get hits as opposed to preferring to take a walk just doesn't seem to add up. I think Votto has had a slump year and a couple of injury (some reported, some not) years. Playing at less than 100% without the confidence that you could drive the ball, then yes, take the walk. He has certainly shown he has a good eye for the strike zone. I just do not see the change to taking walks as a matter of choice or preference. It is not like he shown himself to be some kind of Ernie Pantusso who can only get on base using gimics.
So the real risk in my mind on Votto is will he be healthy ever again. My opinion (granted, not worth much) is a healthy Votto can be a fantasy stud again.
Baseball is a slow, boring, complex, cerebral game that doesn't lend itself to histrionics. You 'take in' a baseball game, something odd to say about a football or basketball game, with the clock running and the bodies flying.
Charles Krauthammer
Charles Krauthammer
Re: Walk Like A Man...(Not Like Votto)
I love that story about Cobb. Cobb was so irritated by the 'Live ball' era.
He hated that he was no longer considered the best player in the world. The home run was king.
And Cobb, was not a home run hitter.
Since, other singles hitters have come along like Boggs and Ichiro who players claim could change their games to be power hitters, but choose not to do so.
It's different with Votto. He didn't have to change his swing or go for a different kind of hit.
He merely became more selective.
And that is ok too. The problem being is that he has done it to the Nth degree.
He didn't 'turn it on'. It was just a conscious decision to only hit his pitch.
Major league pitchers are good. They don't want to give Votto 'his' pitch.
They would rather walk him and Votto is very much ok with accepting that walk.
During the last three years, Votto has hit 44 home runs. 22 of those homers came on the first or second pitch of his at bat.
Half.
He has had 306 at bats when hitting the first or second pitch.
869 at bats when hitting beyond the second pitch with the same amount of homers.
I haven't done a lot of research on whether this is 'normal' or not.
But, what it does tell me is that when deep in a count, the chances of Votto hitting for power is severely lessened.
2010 was his best year, and the year before Votto changed from a hitting machine to a walking man.
He had 172 at bats hitting the first or second pitch.He hit 13 homers.
This falls almost in line with what he has done with first or second pitches since.
But, the 2010 version of Votto had mayhem on his mind even deep into a count.
375 at bats deep in a count, he hit 24 homers.
Those are just numbers. The visual of Votto is more telling. Hitting with two strikes, Votto's swing has become Boggsian.
Watch him this year.
The first question Votto is asked by Cincinnati fans and press is whether he will keep the same approach at the plate.
He has answered in the past that he will not change his approach.
By simply answering that question, it shows that Votto has made a conscious decision in how to approach his at bats.
Wayne, you imply that health may be the cause for lesser numbers. And that may be true for accumulated numbers.
But health has nothing to do with his approach at the plate.
I've beaten this drum through Votto's healthy year of 2013 and during his injurious year of 2014.
Healthy or not, he cannot have any hope to re-claiming past glories. He simply does not have the approach of a power hitter when deep in a count.
It is what he wants to be.
It's not what we want him to be.
He hated that he was no longer considered the best player in the world. The home run was king.
And Cobb, was not a home run hitter.
Since, other singles hitters have come along like Boggs and Ichiro who players claim could change their games to be power hitters, but choose not to do so.
It's different with Votto. He didn't have to change his swing or go for a different kind of hit.
He merely became more selective.
And that is ok too. The problem being is that he has done it to the Nth degree.
He didn't 'turn it on'. It was just a conscious decision to only hit his pitch.
Major league pitchers are good. They don't want to give Votto 'his' pitch.
They would rather walk him and Votto is very much ok with accepting that walk.
During the last three years, Votto has hit 44 home runs. 22 of those homers came on the first or second pitch of his at bat.
Half.
He has had 306 at bats when hitting the first or second pitch.
869 at bats when hitting beyond the second pitch with the same amount of homers.
I haven't done a lot of research on whether this is 'normal' or not.
But, what it does tell me is that when deep in a count, the chances of Votto hitting for power is severely lessened.
2010 was his best year, and the year before Votto changed from a hitting machine to a walking man.
He had 172 at bats hitting the first or second pitch.He hit 13 homers.
This falls almost in line with what he has done with first or second pitches since.
But, the 2010 version of Votto had mayhem on his mind even deep into a count.
375 at bats deep in a count, he hit 24 homers.
Those are just numbers. The visual of Votto is more telling. Hitting with two strikes, Votto's swing has become Boggsian.
Watch him this year.
The first question Votto is asked by Cincinnati fans and press is whether he will keep the same approach at the plate.
He has answered in the past that he will not change his approach.
By simply answering that question, it shows that Votto has made a conscious decision in how to approach his at bats.
Wayne, you imply that health may be the cause for lesser numbers. And that may be true for accumulated numbers.
But health has nothing to do with his approach at the plate.
I've beaten this drum through Votto's healthy year of 2013 and during his injurious year of 2014.
Healthy or not, he cannot have any hope to re-claiming past glories. He simply does not have the approach of a power hitter when deep in a count.
It is what he wants to be.
It's not what we want him to be.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
-
Edwards Kings
- Posts: 5910
- Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 6:00 pm
- Location: Duluth, Georgia
Re: Walk Like A Man...(Not Like Votto)
Just got my Bill James Handbook in the mail (and to quote my wife "Now you are lost to me!"). Last year, per BJH, Votto (you knew I would be checking him out first 
) in his injury shortened season had 272 PA and put the ball in play 173 times, right at 64.60%. Carlos Santana, who is also listed as a "Very Patient" hitter, had a 64.64% ball in play percentage. Stanton (being pitched around) only 58.15%. Others on the list (Joey Bats, Dozier, Freeman, McCutchen, Carpenter) are 2% to 6% higher, which is big but on average Votto is not so far off the norm for guys who are willing to take a pitch, even those hitting in the meat spots of the line-up.
My observation is he is still putting the ball in play within the relevant range of other "very patient" hitters. My question is, since I cannot find my 2011 BJH, what was Votto's ball in play percentage back in 2010? I accept that he does not appear right to you or at least lacking aggression at the plate, but I wonder how much more passive he is than his last big dollar year?
) in his injury shortened season had 272 PA and put the ball in play 173 times, right at 64.60%. Carlos Santana, who is also listed as a "Very Patient" hitter, had a 64.64% ball in play percentage. Stanton (being pitched around) only 58.15%. Others on the list (Joey Bats, Dozier, Freeman, McCutchen, Carpenter) are 2% to 6% higher, which is big but on average Votto is not so far off the norm for guys who are willing to take a pitch, even those hitting in the meat spots of the line-up.My observation is he is still putting the ball in play within the relevant range of other "very patient" hitters. My question is, since I cannot find my 2011 BJH, what was Votto's ball in play percentage back in 2010? I accept that he does not appear right to you or at least lacking aggression at the plate, but I wonder how much more passive he is than his last big dollar year?
Baseball is a slow, boring, complex, cerebral game that doesn't lend itself to histrionics. You 'take in' a baseball game, something odd to say about a football or basketball game, with the clock running and the bodies flying.
Charles Krauthammer
Charles Krauthammer
Re: Walk Like A Man...(Not Like Votto)
You have got to get a different mail service, Wayne!
Bill James was here 6 weeks ago!
You may be missing my point a bit. Balls in play is not the crux of Votto's problem.
Santana and Bautista were the only two players last year with even 100 walks. In Votto's last full year (2013) he had 135 walks.
In less plate appearnaces, Santana hit 27 homers, Bautista 35.
From a fantasy perspective, Santana and Bautista can be somewhat forgiven for taking so many walks. Although for my own personal use, I downgrade them a bit.
In his hey day, we could not compare a hitter like Santana to Votto. Now, we are, if only for their walkability.
Balls in play does not matter near as much as the quality of balls in play.
If Joey Votto is going to look like Wade Boggs with two strikes, a flare does as much for me as a strikeout would.
Give me the full swing of a Mike Trout who saw his strike outs raise from 136 to 184 and his walks decrease from 110 to 83.
For fantasy, he hit more homers, drove in more runs, and even scored more runs (without the walks).
We're looking for aggression all the time now. Everybody seems to be agreeing that Babe Ruth had it right, when he said, "Never let the fear of striking out get in your way."
Votto has gone from Punch to Judy
(Eek! Not a fantasy judy!).
His percentage of balls put in play is meaningless if a fair percentage of those balls are not well struck.
Just an interesting aside. In 2010, Votto's line was .324/106/37/113/16
Trout's 2014....287/115/36/111/16
Incredibly similar.
Two things that jump out in the comparison is the stolen bases and batting average.
Votto was feeling his oats that year, he hasn't stolen 10 bases before or since.
The batting average is something that Votto is seemingly proud of. He wants to maintain his high average.
And that is ok for real baseball. For fantasy purposes, we'd like to see more strike outs, if meaning more power.
Trout is willing to forego average for power.
Bill James was here 6 weeks ago!
You may be missing my point a bit. Balls in play is not the crux of Votto's problem.
Santana and Bautista were the only two players last year with even 100 walks. In Votto's last full year (2013) he had 135 walks.
In less plate appearnaces, Santana hit 27 homers, Bautista 35.
From a fantasy perspective, Santana and Bautista can be somewhat forgiven for taking so many walks. Although for my own personal use, I downgrade them a bit.
In his hey day, we could not compare a hitter like Santana to Votto. Now, we are, if only for their walkability.
Balls in play does not matter near as much as the quality of balls in play.
If Joey Votto is going to look like Wade Boggs with two strikes, a flare does as much for me as a strikeout would.
Give me the full swing of a Mike Trout who saw his strike outs raise from 136 to 184 and his walks decrease from 110 to 83.
For fantasy, he hit more homers, drove in more runs, and even scored more runs (without the walks).
We're looking for aggression all the time now. Everybody seems to be agreeing that Babe Ruth had it right, when he said, "Never let the fear of striking out get in your way."
Votto has gone from Punch to Judy
(Eek! Not a fantasy judy!).
His percentage of balls put in play is meaningless if a fair percentage of those balls are not well struck.
Just an interesting aside. In 2010, Votto's line was .324/106/37/113/16
Trout's 2014....287/115/36/111/16
Incredibly similar.
Two things that jump out in the comparison is the stolen bases and batting average.
Votto was feeling his oats that year, he hasn't stolen 10 bases before or since.
The batting average is something that Votto is seemingly proud of. He wants to maintain his high average.
And that is ok for real baseball. For fantasy purposes, we'd like to see more strike outs, if meaning more power.
Trout is willing to forego average for power.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
-
Edwards Kings
- Posts: 5910
- Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 6:00 pm
- Location: Duluth, Georgia
Re: Walk Like A Man...(Not Like Votto)
I can't blame the USPS. I just did not order mine until Thursday! Yeah, I know...pretty slack of me.
I do get your point. A Votto overly concerned with just getting on base (Bogg-isan...our first year we had a one-on-one with Marty Barrett who said Boggs would be ecstatic that he went 3-4 while the rest of the team was down because they lost the game) or just avoiding making an out is not helping us fantasy-wise (nor his team). What good is a .460+ OBP to go with a .220 ish BA with RISP? His BABIP, while still near .300 (certain on a downward spiral, though) doesn't necessarily lend credence to not making good contact and his hard hit ball rate is still well above league average. Not sure if I am really in on Votto this year. Depends on if I can get him at value.
As you say, we all have our opinion and I certainly appreciate the conversation.
I do get your point. A Votto overly concerned with just getting on base (Bogg-isan...our first year we had a one-on-one with Marty Barrett who said Boggs would be ecstatic that he went 3-4 while the rest of the team was down because they lost the game) or just avoiding making an out is not helping us fantasy-wise (nor his team). What good is a .460+ OBP to go with a .220 ish BA with RISP? His BABIP, while still near .300 (certain on a downward spiral, though) doesn't necessarily lend credence to not making good contact and his hard hit ball rate is still well above league average. Not sure if I am really in on Votto this year. Depends on if I can get him at value.
As you say, we all have our opinion and I certainly appreciate the conversation.
Baseball is a slow, boring, complex, cerebral game that doesn't lend itself to histrionics. You 'take in' a baseball game, something odd to say about a football or basketball game, with the clock running and the bodies flying.
Charles Krauthammer
Charles Krauthammer
Re: Walk Like A Man...(Not Like Votto)
Me too, Wayne.
Love talking baseball. If we all agreed, baseball (and life) wouldn't be as much fun, would it?
Edit- I love human nature. Especially fantasy human nature.
I get a whole lot more folks agreeing with me about Votto IN-season, over the last two/three years, than OFF-season.
The nature of our beast.
Off season is a time for hope.
A time where players can revert back to their best seasons if drafted. In our minds, that player is gonna hit and run like the player we KNOW he can be.
He NEVER gets hurt and NEVER underperforms.
It doesn't matter if it's Joey Votto or BJ Upton.
He is gonna be great THIS year!
If not, we wouldn't have drafted him!
Love talking baseball. If we all agreed, baseball (and life) wouldn't be as much fun, would it?
Edit- I love human nature. Especially fantasy human nature.
I get a whole lot more folks agreeing with me about Votto IN-season, over the last two/three years, than OFF-season.
The nature of our beast.
Off season is a time for hope.
A time where players can revert back to their best seasons if drafted. In our minds, that player is gonna hit and run like the player we KNOW he can be.
He NEVER gets hurt and NEVER underperforms.
It doesn't matter if it's Joey Votto or BJ Upton.
He is gonna be great THIS year!
If not, we wouldn't have drafted him!
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!