The Penalty Box

[DOUGHBOYS]

The baseball Hall of Fame, supposedly, means more than any other sporting Hall of Fame. I believe it is because baseball is what most of us grew up with and played. I also believe it is because of the numbers that surround the game.
Baseball, also only lets in few, if any, members each year, while other sports seem to have a 'herd' mentality.

For me, the Hall of Fame lost its luster when barring Pete Rose.
They used an incident of which I am sure Rose is guilty, and barred him from the Hall of Fame.
The Hall of Fame should never be used as a penalty to a ball player.
The Commisioners and writers are under the assumption that this is so.
The Hall of Fame belongs to BASEBALL FANS.
Leave it to the fans to judge Pete Rose... IN THE HALL OF FAME.

OJ Simpson is in the football Hall of Fame.
Simpson is, at best, a low life son of a bitch.
At worst , he committed the worst atrocity that one human being can do to another.
Simpson is in the football Hall of Fame.
And he should be!
I'm sure when football fans see OJ's bust in Canton that there is talk of what was done off the field.
At the same time, it'll be remembered what he did on the field.
And remember why he is there. And should be there.

Pete Rose is baseball's all-time leading hitter.
Barry Bonds, it's all-time leading home run hitter.
They were the best at what they did.
They belong where the best reside.
In Cooperstown.
Put them there and let baseball fans remember their exploits ON THE FIELD..

The Hall of Fame, initially, became a 'penalty box' for bad deeds with Shoeless Joe Jackson.
Jackson, along with Ty Cobb, were the best hitters in baseball.
When Jackson was offered money to throw the 1919 World Series, he more than likely accepted.
It is also more than likely, that Jackson had no intentions of throwing the World Series.
He led his team in hitting and made sparkling plays in the outfield.
Jackson was not an intelligent man. When asked to sign his name, he usually scrawled an 'X'.
When Judge Landis made his mark by 'cleaning up' baseball, Jackson paid the dearest price.
Landis made it clear later, that Jackson would also not get in the Hall of Fame.
Jackson's friend, Ty Cobb, was treated differently.
Landis slapped Cobb on the wrist for gambling. Looked the other way when Cobb beat black people.
Did not care that Cobb was associated with the Ku Klux Klan.
Of course, Cobb is in the Hall of Fame.

And even though Cobb was an ass, he belongs in the Hall of Fame.
As does Jackson.
As does Rose.
As does Bonds.
If we remembered them, we marveled at them.

The Hall of Fame is not about character or integrity.
Sure, we want each player inducted to be as 'clean' as Cal Ripken or Lou Gehrig.
That's not the way of the world.
Baseball, like any other entity has it's share of low brow characters.
We all know that.
Well, all of us but the Hall.
The Hall is robbing visitors of Cooperstown of those memories with MLB's petty punishment system.
It's like punishing a child five years after the boy pulled his sisters hair.
Punish the players in the moment. Make them pay AT THE TIME.
Don't make the fans pay too.

[Ando]

Dan,

Do you still write a letter annually to the HOF asking for Joe Jackson to be enshrined?

[DOUGHBOYS]

I don't any longer, Matt.
I was probably their largest pain in the ass for a long time!
They most likely consider Jackson a 'done deal'.
Too bad. Really, too bad.

[Bronx Yankees]

Interesting topic. A few, quick comments.

1. My "take" is as an unabashed lover of the Hall of Fame. I have an annual membership and with us living only about a 90-minute drive away, I'm always on the prowl for an excuse to make it out to Cooperstown once or twice a year.

2. The Hall of Fame serves two real purposes. First, it honors the game's greats. Second, it is a museum for the sport of baseball. For the most part, it is or should be "for the fans," but I think some criteria is warranted, although certainly controversial to implement.

3. Technically, between Rose and Bonds, only Rose is banned from the Hall of Fame. Players deemed ineligible by MLB apparently are ineligible for enshrinement. That rule could - and arguably should - be modified, but I do not sense that there is any momentum to do so. I believe - but am not sure - that it was implemented around the time of Rose's suspension largely to keep him out and avoid having to vote on his enshrinement. In contrast, Bonds is eligible for enshrinement; he just hasn't been voted in. I predict he will be, as his vote totals are going up.

4. The whole steroid era is a mess. I totally get the opinion that we should not vote cheaters into the Hall of Fame. I also get the counter opinions, which are many. I will say that Rose's accomplishments and Bond's accomplishments are recognized by and within the Hall of Fame. Having the accomplishments recognized and enshrining the player, however, are two different things.

5. Rose is banned and Bonds is eligible, which makes it appear that Rose's deeds are far worse. I do not know if they are, at least in one sense. Let's assume that Rose bet on baseball as a manager and that Bonds took steroids. Both acts impugn the integrity of the game. But, at least with Rose, assuming his gambling was limited to his managerial tenure and thereafter, such gambling did not impact his actual accomplishments as a player. In contrast, Bonds' steroid use, if actual, does impact and call into question his actual accomplishments as a player. (If you want to argue that he and Clemens did enough to get in before cheating, that's fine, although that is a pretty tough line to walk.) I can rationalize allowing Rose in for similar reasons as O.J. Simpson - morally corrupt actions that did not impact on-the-field performance. Steroid users did impact on-the-field performance. Are Bonds' home run totals any more real than McGuire's or Sosa's, or Brady Anderson's 50 HR season?

I enjoy the Hall of Fame without the plaques for Rose and Bonds. I have no burning desire to see either of them honored. That being said, if I had had the power and only could let one into the Hall, I'd pick Rose. He played the game the way it should be played. I believe Bonds cheated the game for a not-insubstantial part of his career.

Just my two cents.

Mike

[DOUGHBOYS]

Well put, Mike.
I disagree, but well put.

I believe with all my heart and soul that Rose bet on baseball and that Bonds took steroids.
As a fan, I don't look at Rose as MLB wants me to look at him. I remember him on the field.
He was well above his mates when playing the game.
When playing well above your mates to the tune of having more hits than anybody who played the game, you deserve the honor of being with all the players that couldn't match your hit totals.
Rose is being penalized for life, for a crime that others would serve their time and be free again.
It's not the American way.
Major League Baseball penalized Rose when they gathered their information and evidence. Then and there.
They never should have used the Hall of Fame as a punishment as well.
The Hall was never intended to be a penalty box.

Bonds played at a time when many were taking PEDS. He did it better than everybody else and maybe besides Sosa and Canseco, as 'loud' as everybody else.
It is silly to keep him out.
Bonds and Clemens being known PED users vs. the more 'secretive 'Pudge' Rodriguez and Piazza is a farce.
And again, it is the baseball writers representing 'integrity' when most of their group knew what was happening behind the scenes with McGwire and Sosa.
Hypocrisy and aloofness in writers votes are worse for the Hall of Fame than letting one of these players achieve a plaque.

[Bronx Yankees]

Thorny issues, Dan. I see all sides. On this, however, we disagree. But, hey, life's more interesting that way (it would very boring if folks always agreed).

Baseball, and the writers, and Bud Selig, all deserve to share in the blame for the steroid era (error). That blame is shared with the players who cheated.

Did baseball go after Rose with a vengeance? Yes. Did his on the field performance justify induction? Yes. Was Bond one of the game's best before any hint of steroid use? Yes. Was Bonds on steroids better than anyone else on steroids? Yes. Did Pudge and Piazza, two recent inductees, use steroids? Probably yes. Is there a black line that can be drawn between definite users, maybe users and non-users? Unfortunately, no. Will the lack of such line cause some injustice? Probably yes. Those questions and answers might be enough for some, or many, to say Bonds and Rose (and Clemens, McGuire and/or Sosa?) should get in.

Where I come down is that Bonds' home runs and Rose's hits are recognized in the Hall of Fame, and so the question is whether those players - and maybe others - also should be honored by induction into the Hall. For, indeed, it is an honor - arguably the greatest that can be bestowed on a baseball player. I feel no compunction to honor either Rose or Bonds.

Rose knowingly violated, repeatedly, one of baseball's oldest and most serious rules: don't bet on baseball. Rose knew what he was doing, as a manager, was wrong, and yet he did it again and again and, when questioned and investigated, lied about it again and again. Should he be honored?

Bonds cheated while he still was a player. The fact that many others may have been doing it at the time seems like an inadequate excuse to me. He broke records, and already received fame, adoration and enormous compensation that he arguably didn't deserve for chemically-enhanced performance. Must we now honor him, too?

As a fan, I loved watching Rose and Bonds play. As a fan, I also hated the poor publicity (and stain?) they inflicted, or helped to inflict, on the game I love. I won't lose any sleep if Rose and/or Bonds eventually get into the Hall of Fame. That being noted, I'm also not losing any sleep over their absence.

Mike

[knuckleheads]

Baseball, and the writers, and Bud Selig, all deserve to share in the blame for the steroid era (error). That blame is shared with the players who cheated.

TRUE. And also the fans. Perhaps some casual fans were oblivious to the steroid use, but avid fans all knew and accepted (to some degree) PED use. But I must disagree with the claim the players cheated and I disagree that there needs to be blame for one or all.

Calling players cheaters for using PEDS pre-2006 is like calling drivers criminals for speeding. It might technically be correct but there is not truth to it. PEDs were used by many, it was known by most, and it was allowed by MLB if not encouraged.

[DOUGHBOYS]

You are speaking to my point, Mike.
Cobb was favored by a Commisioner who wanted to use Joe Jackson as a notch in his belt to clean up baseball.
Cobb's behavior far exceeded Jackson's as being deplorable.
Jackson though, made for a better 'fall guy'.
Cobb was a horrible person unliked by even most teammates.
But, Jackson made for a 'louder' noise.

Bonds was 'loud' as a steroid abuser.
Piazza and Rodriguez were 'quieter' about their use.
They get in?
Because they were not as good at taking steroids but more desirable for not making noise about it?
It's not right.
Allowing some in, not allowing others.
How is that fair?

That the Hall of Fame uses Rose and Bonds exploits on the museum side and not the plaque side only magnifies the hypocrisy of the institution.
Wink, wink.
We know they were good enough on their own merits to be included.
But, our hands are tied. Wink Wink.
So, we'll show their achievements in other ways.
Wink wink.
Poor form.

I do not revere the Hall of Fame as I once did.
Baseball's use of the institution.
Writers apathy for many years.
Decision making by baseball.
Their handling of Ron Santo (unforgivable).
And no direction in how to handle steroids, have all conspired for me not to care much any longer.


Rose and Bonds personalities rub me the wrong way.
To tell the truth, I turn my nose up every time I see Bonds get attention in a good way.
He cheated. He flaunted cheating.
BUT, on the field, he was a force.
A force like no other.
A magnificent hitter that nobody has feared more before or since.
He was Hall of Fame worthy, on the field, more than anybody who has played the game.
Bonds combined set skills with PED's better than any player of his generation.
Yet, others with (for sure), lesser skills combined with PED's , (probably), get in before Bonds.
Laughable.


Rose cares most about Pete Rose.
But on the field, he was a dynamo.
The toughest out in baseball for years.
Worse players are in the Hall of Fame.
Less integrity than that of Rose also resides in the Hall of Fame.

Let's pretend that Starling Marte were just finishing his 18th season of a great career. A career with over 3.000 hits and 500 stolen bases.
In the meantime, Dee Gordon has floundered during his mid to late years.
Both receive their death penalty news of failing a drug test for the last time.
Gordon loses his right to play baseball.
Marte loses his right to play baseball and gets no admittance to the Hall of Fame.
Because he is Hall of Fame worthy, he is punished more than other players.
How is that fair?

Let's do another pretend...
Mike Sciosia is found guilty of betting on baseball. He would be dismissed from baseball. He would lose his job, salary, and face.
BUT, because he was not a Hall of Fame quality player or Manager, it is not thinkable for baseball to use the Hall of Fame as a penalty.
BUT, since Rose WAS good enough to be in the Hall, the right of passage is closed.
A double standard AND double penalty for the accomplished player.
The lesser player, spanked, and sent on his way.
It makes little sense.
Great players suffer more because there is an added tool to punish great players, while others are just punished one time.
The Hall of Fame was NEVER built to be a penalty for players.
Baseball is using it as such.
They should be ashamed.