The Case For Vada Pinson

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DOUGHBOYS
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The Case For Vada Pinson

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:33 pm

I've given up on the Hall of Fame doing the right things.
They haven't in the past. They won't in the future.
I wrote yearly to the Hall of Fame on behalf of Shoeless Joe Jackson.
I should have saved the money for the stamps.
The Hall of Fame has been off and on in their pompousness and their snootiness.
What goes for one player may not go for another.
The Hall is a little bit like how we used to vote for Prom King and Queen at our high school.
The Quarterback and the best looking cheerleader almost shoo-ins.
One thing about the Hall. It IS all about the looks.

Vada Pinson was one of the best players I ever saw.
Ever.
And I've seen a lot of players.
Now, the younger generation has no idea who Vada Pinson is or the kind of player he was.
Pinson was the kind of player that we fantasy folks adore.
He could run. He could hit. He could hit with power.
Vada Pinson could just flat out play.
He would have won many Gold Gloves, but picked the same era to play in as the BEST player I have ever seen, Willie Mays.

Pinson has fallen through the cracks because of that generation.
Mays, Aaron, Clemente, Killebrew, Kaline, Brock, Musial, Yastrzemski, Banks, Santo, Williams, Mathews, Carew, and his teammate Frank Robinson were the headline grabbers.
It was the golden age of baseball.
There were still few teams and there were many, many great players.

Pinson hit at or near the top of the Reds order.
He was a left handed pain in the ass for pitchers.
He could bunt, go the other way, or hit the ball out of the park.
Pinson was the engine to the Reds team.

Hall of Fame credentials?
Many.
In fact, let's compare Pinson's numbers to the numbers of a man who has become legend.
It seems Pinson is always being compared to legends, but never remembered, even though holding up to these legends.
During Roberto Clemente's career, he had 9,454 at bats....these are his numbers...

Clemente- .317/1416/240/1305/83
Almost anybody will tell you that those are Hall of Fame numbers.
If not for his tragic death, Clemente would have added to these numbers, although the batting average takes a hit during most players last and declining years.

Pinson had 9,645 at bats.....these are his numbers

Pinson- .286/1365/256/1169/305
Those are also Hall of Fame numbers.
The problem being that writers never realized that.
It's a darned shame.
And again, shame on the Hall of Fame.

I do not write to the Hall on behalf of Pinson.
The realization is that it will do no good.
The Hall will continue to let great players fall through the cracks.
They will also be politic'd into letting players in the Hall that really do not belong.
Hi, Rabbit Maranville.
Maranville was a favorite of the Gashouse Gang. The Gashouse Gang have many players in the Hall of Fame and were very influential in who was voted into the Hall of Fame for a long time.
It's too bad that Pinson did not have a group like this fighting for his induction.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

DOUGHBOYS
Posts: 12011
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:00 pm

Re: The Case For Vada Pinson

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:37 pm

I should have included this...
During the 60's, Vada Pinson was top 10 in games played, at bats, hits, singles, doubles, triples, stolen bases, and runs scored.....
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

DOUGHBOYS
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Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:00 pm

Re: The Case For Vada Pinson

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:06 am

Sorry, it is tough for me to get away from the Vada Pinson thing...

Here is a list of players who remained on the ballot for 15 years without getting voted in.
This list does not have players like Ron Santo, who were on the ballot 15 years, then later having the Hall rectify the mistake by including him after 15 years of bad voting.

1966-1980 Al Dark SS; New York Giants
1966-1980 Don Newcombe SP; Brooklyn/LA Dodgers
1966-1980 Mickey Vernon 1B; Washington Senators
1967-1981 Ted Kluszewski 1B; Cincinnati Reds/Redlegs
1969-1983 Gil Hodges 1B; Brooklyn/LA Dodgers
1973-1987 Lew Burdette SP; Milwaukee Braves
1974-1988 Roger Maris RF; New York Yankees
1974-1988 Elston Howard C; New York Yankees
1974-1988 Don Larsen SP; New York Yankees
1976-1990 Roy Face RP; Pittsburgh Pirates
1977-1991 Harvey Kuenn SS/OF; Detroit Tigers
1978-1992 Maury Wills SS; Los Angeles Dodgers
1981-1995 Thurman Munson C; New York Yankees
1982-1996 Tony Oliva RF; Minnesota Twins
1982-1996 Curt Flood CF; St Louis Cardinals
1982-1996 Vada Pinson CF; Cincinnati Reds
1983-1997 Joe Torre C/3B/1B; Milwaukee / Atlanta Braves
1969; 1986-1999 Minnie Minoso LF; Chicago White Sox
1985-1999 Mickey Lolich SP; Detroit Tigers
1988-2002 Luis Tiant SP; Boston Red Sox
1989-2003 Jim Kaat SP; Minnesota Twins
1993-2007 Steve Garvey 1B; Los Angeles Dodgers
1994-2008 Dave Concepcion SS; Cincinnati Reds
1995-2009 Tommy John SP; Chicago White Sox
1997-2011 Dave Parker RF; Pittsburgh Pirates
1999-2013 Dale Murphy CF; Atlanta Braves
2000-2014 Jack Morris SP; Detroit Tigers
2001-2015 Don Mattingly 1B; New York Yankees

Things were different for the early players on this list.
White voters looked at men of color differently.
Unless being one of the first men of color, like Larry Doby or being far superior in play like Willie Mays or Hank Aaron, it was tougher for men of color to make the Hall of Fame.
Curt Flood had absolutely no chance of making the Hall of Fame.
He was branded a trouble maker by most voters.
For his playing days and the way baseball changed after his 'trouble making', he has as much right of seeing the Hall as Marvin Miller, who is being pushed by many to be enshrined.

I'm betting that some of these players will take the Santo path to the Hall.
Especially Gil Hodges who has as much right to the Hall as Pinson.
Hopefully, the Hall sees the light.
They usually do, it is just years after many have already seen and known it.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

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Navel Lint
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Re: The Case For Vada Pinson

Post by Navel Lint » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:38 am

DOUGHBOYS wrote:Sorry, it is tough for me to get away from the Vada Pinson thing...

Here is a list of players who remained on the ballot for 15 years without getting voted in.
This list does not have players like Ron Santo, who were on the ballot 15 years, then later having the Hall rectify the mistake by including him after 15 years of bad voting.

1966-1980 Al Dark SS; New York Giants
1966-1980 Don Newcombe SP; Brooklyn/LA Dodgers
1966-1980 Mickey Vernon 1B; Washington Senators
1967-1981 Ted Kluszewski 1B; Cincinnati Reds/Redlegs
1969-1983 Gil Hodges 1B; Brooklyn/LA Dodgers
1973-1987 Lew Burdette SP; Milwaukee Braves
1974-1988 Roger Maris RF; New York Yankees
1974-1988 Elston Howard C; New York Yankees
1974-1988 Don Larsen SP; New York Yankees
1976-1990 Roy Face RP; Pittsburgh Pirates
1977-1991 Harvey Kuenn SS/OF; Detroit Tigers
1978-1992 Maury Wills SS; Los Angeles Dodgers
1981-1995 Thurman Munson C; New York Yankees
1982-1996 Tony Oliva RF; Minnesota Twins
1982-1996 Curt Flood CF; St Louis Cardinals
1982-1996 Vada Pinson CF; Cincinnati Reds
1983-1997 Joe Torre C/3B/1B; Milwaukee / Atlanta Braves
1969; 1986-1999 Minnie Minoso LF; Chicago White Sox
1985-1999 Mickey Lolich SP; Detroit Tigers
1988-2002 Luis Tiant SP; Boston Red Sox
1989-2003 Jim Kaat SP; Minnesota Twins
1993-2007 Steve Garvey 1B; Los Angeles Dodgers
1994-2008 Dave Concepcion SS; Cincinnati Reds
1995-2009 Tommy John SP; Chicago White Sox
1997-2011 Dave Parker RF; Pittsburgh Pirates
1999-2013 Dale Murphy CF; Atlanta Braves
2000-2014 Jack Morris SP; Detroit Tigers
2001-2015 Don Mattingly 1B; New York Yankees

Things were different for the early players on this list.
White voters looked at men of color differently.
Unless being one of the first men of color, like Larry Doby or being far superior in play like Willie Mays or Hank Aaron, it was tougher for men of color to make the Hall of Fame.
Curt Flood had absolutely no chance of making the Hall of Fame.
He was branded a trouble maker by most voters.
For his playing days and the way baseball changed after his 'trouble making', he has as much right of seeing the Hall as Marvin Miller, who is being pushed by many to be enshrined.

I'm betting that some of these players will take the Santo path to the Hall.
Especially Gil Hodges who has as much right to the Hall as Pinson.
Hopefully, the Hall sees the light.
They usually do, it is just years after many have already seen and known it.
Torre went in via Veterans committee a few years ago, as a manager.

Jack Morris going in this summer via Veterans Committee.
Every year I'm disappointed by the players that don't go in that I feel are HOFers. Morris is the first to get elected in a long time that I feel is NOT a HOF player. Good career....Very good career....Not a HOF career.
Russel -Navel Lint

"Fans don't boo nobodies"
-Reggie Jackson

DOUGHBOYS
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Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:00 pm

Re: The Case For Vada Pinson

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:58 am

I agree.
Morris is a Hall of Famer in the Sutton mold.
No major injuries and he stood the test of time more than pitching prowess.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

DOUGHBOYS
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Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:00 pm

Re: The Case For Vada Pinson

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:09 pm

The Hall has always rewarded length of career.

Tony Perez was not a better hitter than Gil Hodges.
In fact, they are pretty much the same hitter.
But, Perez has more years.
He is in, Hodges is out.

In 7030 at bats, here is Hodges numbers...273/1105/370/1274/63

In 9778 at bats, here is Perez' numbers....279/1272/379/1652/49

And for you sabrs out there, Hodges walked 943 times and k'd 1137 times.
Perez drew 925 walks and struck out 1867 times.

It is just silliness that Perez is in and Hodges is out.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

DOUGHBOYS
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Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:00 pm

Re: The Case For Vada Pinson

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:19 pm

These are the reasons (and many more) in why I do not attach the same reverence to the Hall of Fame as I did earlier in my life.
There are just too many wrongs to be righted in my view.
And, they can never undo the Santo snafu.
If they were even close to enshrining the right players on a yearly basis (including the veterans vote), I would take their elections as seriously as when I was young.
However, I have lost faith in them ever righting their ship.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

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