Writers and the Hall

Post Reply
DOUGHBOYS
Posts: 13088
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:00 pm

Writers and the Hall

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:23 am

I once had a child-like faith in the baseball Hall of Fame.
The best of the best.
A place where Ty Cobb and Pete Rose could mythically talk about their days in accumulating the most hits in baseball for their times.
A place where Babe Ruth could say he was fueled by hot dogs while Barry Bonds can tell the Babe that his hot dogs came in a syringe or cream.
A place like we envision the corn fields in 'Field of Dreams'.

Being an adult, I know now that the Hall of Fame is no such place.
It is merely an opinion-based club whose inclusion is based on several factors both on and off the baseball field.
The obvious, being players like Rose, Bonds, or Shoeless Joe Jackson.
But, their is another factor too.
That of likeability.
Hall of Fame voters have never voted ANY player in with a 100 per cent vote.
Willie Mays was 'colored' and didn't receive some votes.
Mantle drank too much.
Steve Carlton, crass.

Voters have a hard time separating the field of play from the field of fair play.
As fans, we care about what goes on, on the field.
We don't get to know the players, up close and personal, like writers.
Writers take these personal feelings and incorporate it into their votes.
They deny it. They want to keep the vote. A vanity thing.
In my eye, they should be one of the last of baseball folks voting players into a Hall of Fame.
But, what is, is.

Here is a case in point.
Politics and Frankie Frisch lobbying and lawyering made almost all of recognized 'Gashouse Gang' members, Hall of Famers.
Go ahead and look at Rabbit Maranville's numbers sometime.
Lawyering and lobbying the writers have gone on for years.
They are close to the game and a phone call away from any player.
Not good for the game or Hall.

Another point is not the players feats, but rather his 'sweets'.
Red Schoendienst (yep, I know how to spell it without looking) was a sweet guy.
Everybody likes Red Schoedienst.
Was Red Schoendienst a Hall of Famer?
Heck yeah.
Nice guy.
He stayed in baseball for years and everybody loved him.
Years later, another second baseman comes around. He is not so well liked.
In fact, the best that can be said about him is that he played with Barry Bonds and didn't like Bonds.
His name is Jeff Kent.
Kent did not take to interviews or writers. Hated that part of the game.
On the field, he performed well.
He hit more homers than any second baseman in history.
He surpassed every Red Schoendienst number.
Every one.
Here is Schoendienst...
2216 games, 2449 hits, .289/.337/.387...289/1223/84/773/89
Here is Kent...
2298 games, 2461 hits, .290/356/.500...290/1320/377/1518/94

Schoendienst voted into the Hall of Fame with a 75 per cent vote.
Kent?
15, 14, 16, 16, and 14 per cent of the votes over the last five years.
The Hall of Fame has become a beauty contest.
Schoendienst had something Kent never had.
Congeniality.
And in this contest, Miss Congeniality goes to the Hall of Fame.
Kent, with his beautiful numbers and no personality, goes to a truck wash.

My only recourse is to call out the Hall of Fame for being stupid in a forum like this where not many care.
It is stupid that the closest contacts with players during a season are the very folks who vote on their participation into the Hall of Fame later.
The vote would be better off with voters not knowing players up close and personal.
We don't need somebody who can look at Red Schoendienst, thinking "Nice guy" .
We do need somebody looking at Kent and thinking, "Nice numbers".

Without the leading players in Hits, the leading player in Home Runs, and missing a batter who hit .400, the Hall of Fame is already less.
Just less.
Less than it could be.
Instead of trumpeting Pete Rose numbers, Bonds homers, and Shoeless Joe's 'Black Betsy' and .400 batting average, they shield the public from them, as if never happening.
Meanwhile, in Canton, we can go to the Pro Football Hall of Fame and see OJ Simpson's plaque.
Those viewers get to make the obvious comments that come in seeing his name in a revered place.
They have that choice. They can differentiate his exploits on the field from those off the field.
Baseball onlookers can too, if we had the chance.

The Hall of Fame is not about punishments for players.
Nor, should it be a place for likeable players to congregate.
It is meant for the best of baseball players. Even if having made bad choices or having lousy personalities.
A place where baseball fans can see the best of baseball that each generation had to offer.
Give us, the baseball fan, the choice to give a plaque a mind-spit or a loving rub.
As is, nice guys don't finish last, they go to the Hall of Fame.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

DOUGHBOYS
Posts: 13088
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:00 pm

Re: Writers and the Hall

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:28 am

Harold Baines?

That's the best you can do, Hall?

Harold Baines.

Seriously.

I give.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

Bronx Yankees
Posts: 1238
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:16 pm

Re: Writers and the Hall

Post by Bronx Yankees » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:58 am

DOUGHBOYS wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:28 am
Harold Baines?

That's the best you can do, Hall?

Harold Baines.

Seriously.

I give.
Had the same reaction, Dan. This seems like one of the weakest selections in recent memory. Is this the Hall of the Just Really Good? Baines was a solid hitter for many, many years. He never was among the best of his era. Not that the writers' votes should be binding for eternity, and I like the idea of giving guys another look after the passage of time, but Baines never even came remotely close to being elected while on the ballot, and that is a reflection of the fact that he was never looked upon as being among the very elite players of the game. His highest vote total while on the regular ballot was 6.1% and he fell off after five years. As an OF/DH (more of a DH, I believe), he never hit 30 HR, never scored 90 R, and broke 100 RBI three times in his career. He consistently hit for a solid average, but he was far more of a compiler than a star.

Interestingly, of the committee that voted Baines in (with the minimum number of votes), he played for three of them (Reinsdorf as owner, LaRussa as manager, and Gillick as GM). Disappointing.

Mike
Mike Mager
"Bronx Yankees"

DOUGHBOYS
Posts: 13088
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:00 pm

Re: Writers and the Hall

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:57 am

Mike, I ranted somewhere else and got my feelings out there.
This one was just stupid.
Baines was a swell hitter. But when I think of him or Edgar Martinez, Martinez is the clear victor. Same with David Ortiz. Same with others who could hit a little but not field their ass with two gloves..
Baines was a sloth. A guy with little speed who barely had more games in the outfield than DH'ing.
Last night, I compared him with a better all-round player in Vada Pinson.
I have made the case for Pinson being in the Hall of Fame before.
Pinson would have won 11 or 12 Gold Gloves, had he not played the same position and at the same time as Willie Mays.
Baines' numbers are .289/1299/384/1628/34 with 2,866 Hits, while being suitable or below average defensively, his career lengthened by the Designated Hitter.
Pinson's numbers are.286/1366/256/1170/305 with 2,757 Hits, while playing the game four less years and being an athletic phenom in Center Field.
Pinson was a five tool player. Baines had neither a glove or speed.
If finding a modern day player to compare to Harold Baines , think Nicholas Castellanos hitting as he has for the next 20 years, no doubt, he too will finish his career as a DH.

The Hall has done it again.
They keep making mistakes.
Frankie Frisch heading up a 'Veterans Committee' let many of his old cronies in.
Now, the same is happening with this group.
The Hall keeps tieing their own shoelaces together, walking, falling, and laughing at themselves.
We're laughing at them too.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

Bronx Yankees
Posts: 1238
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:16 pm

Re: Writers and the Hall

Post by Bronx Yankees » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:51 pm

I know I shouldn't get worked up about HOF selections, but I truly feel bad for the guys who are far more deserving than Baines who have been passed up time and time again.

I do not remember Pinson and, honestly, but for your posts over the years, I'm not sure I ever would have heard of him. That's a shame as it looks like he's more deserving than Baines. My personal fave who is outside looking in (now that the injustice to Tim Raines has been corrected) is Andruw Jones. Here's the quick rundown:

Baines: 384 HR, 1299 R, 1628 RBI, 34 SB, .289 BA, 38.4 WAR. Six-time all-star.

Jones: 434 HR, 1204 R, 1289 RBI, 152 SB, .254 BA, 66.9 WAR. Five-time all-star. Ten-time Gold Glove winner.

Jones had a shorter career, and so while he accumulated more offensive stats in some categories, he trails Baines in others. Unlike Baines, Jones scored more than 100 R in a season (4 times). Jones also had more 100 RBI seasons (five, including two at 128 and 129) versus Baines (three). Jones was a better power hitter, accumulating more HR over a shorter period of time.

Most important, at least to me, is that Jones was the greatest defensive player in his era. While I can't go back in time, I'm skeptical that there were many - or maybe any - player in the history of the game that played a better CF. In comparison, Baines largely was a DH. While WAR probably is overrated, 38.4 v 66.9 says something about the value each player provided to his teams over the years. Sadly, there probably are 5-10 other players that may be better than Andruw Jones and a helluva lot better than Baines who are excluded. Just annoying.

Mike
Mike Mager
"Bronx Yankees"

DOUGHBOYS
Posts: 13088
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:00 pm

Re: Writers and the Hall

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:16 pm

For baseball, it is worse than annoying. It is EMBARRASSING.
A blue ribbon for Baines is a black eye for the Hall.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

DOUGHBOYS
Posts: 13088
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:00 pm

Re: Writers and the Hall

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:19 pm

I'm sorry (No, I'm not), but Baines was not even one of the top players of his own generation.
Joe Jackson, Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens and more were all the best, the Creme de la Creme of their generations.
And we have HAROLD BAINES going in the Hall of Fame?
It has become a joke.
And nobody is laughing.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

mbendar16
Posts: 204
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:00 pm

Re: Writers and the Hall

Post by mbendar16 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:21 pm

I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw Baines was in the HOF. Whether you like the writers or not, especially over their judgment of deciding who did or did not take steroids instead of their merits of HOF consideration, this Baines selection truly makes their job a lot more difficult. I think he was going to get in anyway, but how can Edgar Martinez not get in after Baines does? If he doesn't, is he an auto 2019 committee selection? It truly diminishes what used to be an honor for the game's best, more so than anyone in the last 25-30 years.

DOUGHBOYS
Posts: 13088
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:00 pm

Re: Writers and the Hall

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:46 pm

mbendar16 wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:21 pm
I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw Baines was in the HOF. Whether you like the writers or not, especially over their judgment of deciding who did or did not take steroids instead of their merits of HOF consideration, this Baines selection truly makes their job a lot more difficult. I think he was going to get in anyway, but how can Edgar Martinez not get in after Baines does? If he doesn't, is he an auto 2019 committee selection? It truly diminishes what used to be an honor for the game's best, more so than anyone in the last 25-30 years.
Agreed. The hall keeps on doing things that make baseball fans roll their eyes.
This committee should be abolished.
The bar has been set at a new low.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

DOUGHBOYS
Posts: 13088
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:00 pm

Re: Writers and the Hall

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:04 am

Baines entrance into the Hall of Fame opens the doors for many.
There is a list I like that is almost all Hall of Famers, current players that will be Hall of Famers, or steroid-tied players.
Baines is on this list, actually.
It serves players who played a long, long time.
It is the players who have hit 250 homers and have amassed 2,500 hits.
Besides Baines, other Hall of Famers, current players, and steroid tied players, here are the 10 players that are left....

Rusty Staub- 292, 2,716

Carlos Beltran- 435, 2,725

Todd Helton- 369, 2,518

Luis Gonzalez- 354, 2,591

Dave Parker- 339, 2,712

Steve Finley- 304 2,548

Garrett Anderson- 287, 2,529

Steve Garvey- 272, 2,599

Derek Jeter- 260, 3,465

Vada Pinson- 256, 2,757

Now that Baines is in, these fellas should also be permitted entrance.This committee opened the door.
Each has the same or more of a right to be admitted...

It's the time we live in. The wussification of America.
If not being in the Hall, I also believe that every other player alive and dead, should be given a participation ribbon.
Yeah, that's sarcasm.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

mbendar16
Posts: 204
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:00 pm

Re: Writers and the Hall

Post by mbendar16 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:07 pm

On that list, Dave Parker and Steve Garvey stand out to me. Both very good players with a strong reputation in their playing days, but just not HOF worthy. Trammell was in a similar boat last year, but not in the same unworthy ballpark as Baines. Will be interesting the floodgates of "very good" ballpayers inducted as a result of this. Also interesting if any HOF's speak out on this ( probably not, just curious)

DOUGHBOYS
Posts: 13088
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:00 pm

Re: Writers and the Hall

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:28 pm

I believe the Hall players will say little.
Like the MLB Network, it is rare when somebody says something negative about their brethren.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

mbendar16
Posts: 204
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:00 pm

Re: Writers and the Hall

Post by mbendar16 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:15 pm

Goose Gossage doesn't have any problems speaking up :mrgreen: I agree with you Dan, but I'll admit I was thinking of goose when I wrote that curious comment.

DOUGHBOYS
Posts: 13088
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:00 pm

Re: Writers and the Hall

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:28 pm

I love Rich. I was lucky enough to play softball with and against him after his playing years.
A guy like us.

Also love Maddog Russo who called out that stupid committee in 'coming up' with Baines.
Everybody on the network, besides him, just regurgitate stats that fit and tell all what a nice guy and player he was.
Don't you just love politics? :mrgreen: :roll:
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

Post Reply