Ohtani and the NFBC

[DOUGHBOYS]

The NFBC is not pristine. As I write this, there are many tech problems that have been brought up by players and not addressed. Including the clock on DC's stopping at 1 AM, EST instead of 2 AM, EST as stated in the rules.
Long time NFBC members know the drill. They know that the NFBC is slow to fix things. Most, don't care. They just like drafting here.
After all, THAT is what we're here for.

In my eyes, the NFBC really got one thing wrong though. The ruling on Shohei Ohtani.
During the baseball playoffs, I brought up to Greg that a ruling would be needed on Ohtani. It was debated on these Message Boards.
I wanted Ohtani to be used as he is in real baseball.
His owner would have the chance to use Ohtani as both a P and U if the owner wanted.
The other side of the debate was that Ohtani should only be a P or a U. Not both, but just one or the other.
The thinking was that giving him both P and U would make him overly valuable or that his drafter should be penalized in some way by being charged with two picks.
Ultimately, Greg made the decision that was in between both camps.
Ohtani can be used as a P OR U during a week. Not both.


It's a blah ruling.
A ruling that, we all know, in the future will be changed. It just will to match the play on the real baseball field.
It's early in their strategy for Ohtani, but the Angels have stated that they're comfortable pitching Ohtani once a week. Probably every Sunday.
It's a cruel blow for his ownership.
A change in rotation, a whim, or the weather, etc could result in Ohtani not making a start at all during a week.
His hitting will be spotty.
Some say he won't hit the day before or the day after a Start.

What the Angels have is a hybrid player. A hitter four times a week. A pitcher once a week.
What the NFBC has is a watered down version of Ohtani. His owners have to make a choice.
In making that choice, they are risking getting no Start at all from Ohtani or lessened at bats than other hitters.
If both a pitcher and hitter, with one roster spot, he would be a swiss army knife. Instead, pick a blade.
In effect, the Hybrid has been turned into a role player.
The never-seen-before starter as a pitcher/hitter relegated to a platoon player between Starter and Hitter.

As a result, NFBC Drafters have wised up.
Ohtani is falling down the ADP lists.
In November, without thinking of the real ramifications of the Ohtani decision and just his talent , drafters cited Ohtani at number 79 in ADP.
Or, a top of the sixth round pick.
In Mid-December, it began to hit NFBC drafters that they were not getting Ohtani, but only part of Ohtani at a time.
His ADP fell to 90. The bottom of the sixth round.
This month, 103. Or, near the bottom of the seventh round.
By the time the Main Events come, he may not be in single digit rounds.

Instead of the fun of having a two-way player on our roster.
We have to choose our poison.
Forgotten, is that Ohtani is truly good at both hitting and pitching.
If playing every day as a hitter and outfielder and not pitching, he would be a four-sixth round pick by drafters.
If pitching every fifth day, he may be a third or fourth round pick, depending on how well he comes back from Tommy John.
In this respect, the Angels are gypping us and themselves.
In having Ohtani do both, it requires more bench time. Bench time is the enemy of all NFBC drafters.
If Ohtani was available to do both on our rosters though, he would have become the ultimate multi-position player.
We could have forgiven the less at bats and occasional missed starts more readily.


Here is what I am hoping happens....
After July, when the Angels are comfortable with Ohtani and lift inning limitations, they let him be Ohtani. The full Ohtani.
He pitches every fifth day and hits in three of the four games in between.
His drafters wanting more, implore the NFBC to have Ohtani be both a hitter and pitcher on NFBC rosters next year.
It would be only right.
Fantasy baseball should celebrate a player who both pitches and hits and succeeds at both.
His production from the mound and batters box should not be stifled.
It should be appreciated.

Edit- What if Ohtani could be used as both a hitter and Pitcher?
How much would his stock be up, really?
His owner would be able to use to use him as a U and a P or bench him for either or both.
Yes, he becomes a useful gadget for a short bench of just seven players.
At the same time, his owners would still be faced with what his owners face this year. Bench time and the fear of missing his start.
I believe if granted both P and U designations that Ohtani would probably be a fifth round player.
His unique multi-position use being the chief reason.
Maybe not even that high upon further thought.
Would you prefer full use of Ohtani or Matt Olson? Trevor Bauer? Noah Syndergaard?
Would you want Ohtani or Nelson Cruz?
It would have added strategy, no?
We'll never know this year, but it sure would have been interesting.

[Edwards Kings]

Rarely do I disagree with you Dan, but this may be one of those times. As I read what you wrote, something that probably already occurred to you just came to me. Ohtani is not that unique. On fifteen other teams, players both bat and pitch.

Now Ohtani may hit four or five times a week (and is very good at it). He will pitch once a week (at most). On NL teams, four or five players a week will pitch once or twice and therefore once or twice a week bat. It is a matter of degree (i.e. how good a hitter, how frequent they hit).

I understand how the ruling diminishes Ohtani's value for fantasy purposes. He is going to end up like quite a few ballplayers who are more valuable to a "real" MLP team, not quite as much to NFBC fantasy due to his either/or status. But to allow a fantasy owner both hitting and pitching stats for Ohtani, but not count both hitting and pitching stats for NL pitchers (or certain interleague) doesn't seem quite right to me either.

Yes, the rule may change when the universal DH is in place, but for now, I can understand the logic of the current rule. Just my opinion.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Ugh.
It's a weak argument, Wayne.
You would even have to also be against the way Ohtani is being used now by the NFBC, since no NL pitcher can also be used a hitter and Ohtani can.
Folks have got to quit comparing Ohtani to a National League pitcher.
National League pitchers (except for Michael Lorenzen who should also have two way status (29 Gms in OF!)) do not start at other positions.
Neither do most (hello Brandon McKay) A.L. pitchers.
It is why Bumgarner prioritized an N.L. team. So he can hit! He knows that he would seldom, if ever have DH'd in the A.L.
This conversation could be null and void anyways, since the Union is pushing Major League Baseball very hard to start the DH in both leagues starting 2021.
Comparing Ohtani to NL pitchers is like saying that Jose Canseco was a pitcher too, since he relieved late in a game.
It makes no sense.
In fact, last year, Ohtani could ONLY be drafted as a hitter. Not a Pitcher.Is there another pitcher that could only be drafted as a hitter?
Name one NL pitcher that you would start on the hitting side for his one game if allowed to start a pitcher as a hitter in your fantasy lineup.
You can't, because you simply would not do it.
Please stop the NL pitcher comparisons to Ohtani. It's apples and kumquats.

Like it or not, I believe next year we will have full use of Ohtani. It's plain silly to let a player who qualifies at a HITTING position and be a Pitcher, not be allowed to be in lineups at both those positions. Every other Multi-positioned player can be played at both positions.
Ohtani is penalized in his uniqueness.

[Gekko]

Hi doughy.

Is there confirmation anywhere as to whether the NFBC gaming platform (Programming, etc) would be able to successfully meet the specifications of your proposal without any unintended consequences (counting other pitchers hitting stats, etc).

Also, suppose the angels played at Yankee stadium on a Sunday and Ohtani owners want to set their lineup so that only his hitting stats count for that week. Would that be possible (both policy wise and Via the NFBC gaming platform) under your proposal?

[DOUGHBOYS]

Hi doughy.

Is there confirmation anywhere as to whether the NFBC gaming platform (Programming, etc) would be able to successfully meet the specifications of your proposal without any unintended consequences (counting other pitchers hitting stats, etc).

Also, suppose the angels played at Yankee stadium on a Sunday and Ohtani owners want to set their lineup so that only his hitting stats count for that week. Would that be possible (both policy wise and Via the NFBC gaming platform) under your proposal?

Hi Mark!

According to Darik, programming did not come into play in the Ohtani decision.
However, your point is well-taken. As we both know, the NFBC has had problems in the actual performance of its programming.

[Edwards Kings]

Well, this one of those where we will just agree to disagree. Not surprisingly, I think my logic is sound but I respect that you feel differently about the situation. The current solution is satisfactory to me but whatever we come up with in the future, I can deal. Just another parameter to the game...

Funny how MLB is moving towards a DH in part not to put pitchers at risk of batting (yes, I know the union wants it mainly to extend the careers of the old and fat) while at the same time the new fun flavor is two-way players. Ohtani getting hurt again would probably end the experiment anyway (not wishing it of course).

[DOUGHBOYS]

Well, this one of those where we will just agree to disagree. Not surprisingly, I think my logic is sound but I respect that you feel differently about the situation. The current solution is satisfactory to me but whatever we come up with in the future, I can deal. Just another parameter to the game...

Funny how MLB is moving towards a DH in part not to put pitchers at risk of batting (yes, I know the union wants it mainly to extend the careers of the old and fat) while at the same time the new fun flavor is two-way players. Ohtani getting hurt again would probably end the experiment anyway (not wishing it of course).

It's funny how the Union protects their older, more veteran players, but don't care that Would-be prospects like Bryant a few years ago get screwed.
I don't get it.

Actually, I am ok with Ohtani too.
It's wrong, clearly, but my drafting soul is ok with it.
I don't like Ohtani much as a drafter with this ruling. The either/or will be a nightmare for his drafters. In the seventh round, I don't want the headache.
If they had made Ohtani a hybrid, I would have a lot more difficulty in grading Ohtani's worth.

[Edwards Kings]

If they had made Ohtani a hybrid, I would have a lot more difficulty in grading Ohtani's worth.

On this, I fully agree. The duality makes it lose/lose to me. We have 23 active roster spots. If hybrid, one of those spots with Ohtani means you have a batter that will be Chipper Jones-esque...you know he will only bat four days (some cases five) a week. Good numbers when he is in there but lots of PA left on the table. You get his pitcher points, but he will be the perpetual one-start a week starter, so for that roster spot you leave at least half a dozen starts on the table. Makes it difficult to value.

[DOUGHBOYS]

If they had made Ohtani a hybrid, I would have a lot more difficulty in grading Ohtani's worth.

On this, I fully agree. The duality makes it lose/lose to me. We have 23 active roster spots. If hybrid, one of those spots with Ohtani means you have a batter that will be Chipper Jones-esque...you know he will only bat four days (some cases five) a week. Good numbers when he is in there but lots of PA left on the table. You get his pitcher points, but he will be the perpetual one-start a week starter, so for that roster spot you leave at least half a dozen starts on the table. Makes it difficult to value.

Yes Sir!

In a way, Ohtani becomes a little bit like Joey Votto. Votto would drive his own owners insane by ignoring RBI to draw a walk.
Ohtani owners will get bitten by circumstance.
The zero for the week in pitching. The seldom occurring batting appearances. AND, we have to choose which we want!
Sure, like every player, there will be times we wished we owned him. But there will be more when we're glad we don't.

Our overall game suffers by the decision. The NFBC should be on the forefront of fantasy baseball.
It would be exciting to think that a player can be a hybrid. The ultimate multi-position player. It's just better for our game to add that magic touch.
Enough preaching by me though, I'll move on.

[Thurman15]

Ohtani is of little to no value in the fantasy baseball world. But I don't blame the NFBC. I blame Billy Eppler. The Angels GM is a donkey in my view. He babies Ohtani so much that the Angels don't have a star player in him. They have a "imagine if...." player. Even before Tommy John, Eppler had no intention of letting him pitch regularly. He is 24 years old !! He is a great athlete. Let the man play.!! Every NL pitcher hits on the day they pitch. And now he can't even DH on the day before or after ? Come on ...get real....DHing does not take much out of you at all. He should be hitting 6 times a week, and pitching every 5th day. Billy Eppler has turned Ohtani from a potential star to a part time player. Why do almost all of the Japanese/foreign pitchers come over and start every 5th day ?? But Ohtani is not allowed to. Regarding fantasy, why would you pick him in even the 6th round ? How many at bats will he get ?? Don't tell me "if" I asked how many at bats WILL he get ? How many innings will he pitch ?? Don't tell me "if" I asked how many he WILL pitch. Now cut this down even farther because he can only be used as 1 of the 2. According to ADP, Syndergaard and Trevor Bauer can be had in the 6th round. Or Matt Chapman, Max Muncy or Jeff McNeil. Why the hell would you pick Ohtani to hit over those guys ? I would never pick Ohtani until roughly the 14th or 15th round. The hitters I'm picking in the 14th and 15th rounds will produce more offence than Ohtani. How many strikeouts and wins will Ohtani have compared to Noah Syndergaard and Trevor Bauer or Brandon Woodruff ?

The end result is Ohtani has some, but not a lot of value in Fantasy Baseball. Blame Billy Eppler....and don't even get me started on the pitching staff Eppler puts together every year. Dan or Wayne, if you were the GM and spoke with Arte Moreno, you could put together a better staff than Eppler. So could I.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Ohtani is of little to no value in the fantasy baseball world. But I don't blame the NFBC. I blame Billy Eppler. The Angels GM is a donkey in my view. He babies Ohtani so much that the Angels don't have a star player in him. They have a "imagine if...." player. Even before Tommy John, Eppler had no intention of letting him pitch regularly. He is 24 years old !! He is a great athlete. Let the man play.!! Every NL pitcher hits on the day they pitch. And now he can't even DH on the day before or after ? Come on ...get real....DHing does not take much out of you at all. He should be hitting 6 times a week, and pitching every 5th day. Billy Eppler has turned Ohtani from a potential star to a part time player. Why do almost all of the Japanese/foreign pitchers come over and start every 5th day ?? But Ohtani is not allowed to. Regarding fantasy, why would you pick him in even the 6th round ? How many at bats will he get ?? Don't tell me "if" I asked how many at bats WILL he get ? How many innings will he pitch ?? Don't tell me "if" I asked how many he WILL pitch. Now cut this down even farther because he can only be used as 1 of the 2. According to ADP, Syndergaard and Trevor Bauer can be had in the 6th round. Or Matt Chapman, Max Muncy or Jeff McNeil. Why the hell would you pick Ohtani to hit over those guys ? I would never pick Ohtani until roughly the 14th or 15th round. The hitters I'm picking in the 14th and 15th rounds will produce more offence than Ohtani. How many strikeouts and wins will Ohtani have compared to Noah Syndergaard and Trevor Bauer or Brandon Woodruff ?

The end result is Ohtani has some, but not a lot of value in Fantasy Baseball. Blame Billy Eppler....and don't even get me started on the pitching staff Eppler puts together every year. Dan or Wayne, if you were the GM and spoke with Arte Moreno, you could put together a better staff than Eppler. So could I.

Al, I can't disagree with anything said!
Good points.

[Edwards Kings]

Dan or Wayne, if you were the GM and spoke with Arte Moreno, you could put together a better staff than Eppler. So could I.

Thanks for the vote of confidence!

As GM Wayne, rather than Rendon (nothing against Rendon, but I see other needs), I am grabbing Moustakas (not Rendon, but certainly and upgrade), Mad-Bum, and Ryu. With Heaney, Canning, Teheran, Bundy and even Ohtani I think the Angels would finally have some rotation depth and a playoff team.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Dan or Wayne, if you were the GM and spoke with Arte Moreno, you could put together a better staff than Eppler. So could I.

Thanks for the vote of confidence!

As GM Wayne, rather than Rendon (nothing against Rendon, but I see other needs), I am grabbing Moustakas (not Rendon, but certainly and upgrade), Mad-Bum, and Ryu. With Heaney, Canning, Teheran, Bundy and even Ohtani I think the Angels would finally have some rotation depth and a playoff team.

Year to year, the Angels tread water.
They have Mike Trout! I would never be a tread water franchise.
This year, I also would have left Rendon alone.
If breaking the bank, I would have offered Cole or Strasburg a lot of money.
Moustakas, Castellanos, and Grandal would have been the targets if falling short on the two pitchers.
BUT, this is the Angels M.O.
They put a lot of money in one player.
Pujols, Ohtani, Trout, and Rendon all long, big contracts.
Around them, Crap. Crap pitching rotation. Crap Bullpen. Crap lineup.
It's why they tread water. Their work is done after making a big signing. Baseball doesn't work that way.

[Yah Mule]

Ohtani is of little to no value in the fantasy baseball world. But I don't blame the NFBC. I blame Billy Eppler. The Angels GM is a donkey in my view. He babies Ohtani so much that the Angels don't have a star player in him. They have a "imagine if...." player. Even before Tommy John, Eppler had no intention of letting him pitch regularly. He is 24 years old !! He is a great athlete. Let the man play.!! Every NL pitcher hits on the day they pitch. And now he can't even DH on the day before or after ? Come on ...get real....DHing does not take much out of you at all. He should be hitting 6 times a week, and pitching every 5th day. Billy Eppler has turned Ohtani from a potential star to a part time player. Why do almost all of the Japanese/foreign pitchers come over and start every 5th day ?? But Ohtani is not allowed to. Regarding fantasy, why would you pick him in even the 6th round ? How many at bats will he get ?? Don't tell me "if" I asked how many at bats WILL he get ? How many innings will he pitch ?? Don't tell me "if" I asked how many he WILL pitch. Now cut this down even farther because he can only be used as 1 of the 2. According to ADP, Syndergaard and Trevor Bauer can be had in the 6th round. Or Matt Chapman, Max Muncy or Jeff McNeil. Why the hell would you pick Ohtani to hit over those guys ? I would never pick Ohtani until roughly the 14th or 15th round. The hitters I'm picking in the 14th and 15th rounds will produce more offence than Ohtani. How many strikeouts and wins will Ohtani have compared to Noah Syndergaard and Trevor Bauer or Brandon Woodruff ?

The end result is Ohtani has some, but not a lot of value in Fantasy Baseball. Blame Billy Eppler....and don't even get me started on the pitching staff Eppler puts together every year. Dan or Wayne, if you were the GM and spoke with Arte Moreno, you could put together a better staff than Eppler. So could I.

The question, though, is do the kid gloves come off when they're in a pennant race and the guy is itching to do more? I think the pressure would be on the Angels front office to cut him loose.

[Yah Mule]

Dan or Wayne, if you were the GM and spoke with Arte Moreno, you could put together a better staff than Eppler. So could I.

Thanks for the vote of confidence!

As GM Wayne, rather than Rendon (nothing against Rendon, but I see other needs), I am grabbing Moustakas (not Rendon, but certainly and upgrade), Mad-Bum, and Ryu. With Heaney, Canning, Teheran, Bundy and even Ohtani I think the Angels would finally have some rotation depth and a playoff team.

Year to year, the Angels tread water.
They have Mike Trout! I would never be a tread water franchise.
This year, I also would have left Rendon alone.
If breaking the bank, I would have offered Cole or Strasburg a lot of money.
Moustakas, Castellanos, and Grandal would have been the targets if falling short on the two pitchers.
BUT, this is the Angels M.O.
They put a lot of money in one player.
Pujols, Ohtani, Trout, and Rendon all long, big contracts.
Around them, Crap. Crap pitching rotation. Crap Bullpen. Crap lineup.
It's why they tread water. Their work is done after making a big signing. Baseball doesn't work that way.

The Halos did luck into a borderline spectacular return for utility infielder Luis Rengifo yesterday. The Dodgers were dumping salary and it was like your neighbor upgraded his living room furniture and sold you his old stuff for pennies on the dollar.

[DOUGHBOYS]

One year of Pederson, two of Stripling.
I guess that is good for the Angels. It is still treading water.
Pederson replaces Calhoun.
Stripling becomes one of the Angels top pitchers.
Until I can quit saying that last sentence, it is hard to take the Angels seriously.