'Helpful' Lists

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DOUGHBOYS
Posts: 13088
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:00 pm

'Helpful' Lists

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:36 am

I drafted Zack Greinke in the 11th round of a DC Draft this week. Greinke has been drafted mostly in the eighth round of most drafts.
For you that believe in 'Value Picks', go ahead and scream 'value'.
I think of Greinke as an aging pitcher who can still fool some hitters.
Certainly not a difference maker on any roster.
And this post is not about Greinke per se or 'value'.

Writers make lists. Podcasters make lists. We make lists.
None of us follow them to a tee. We make them because it is what we believe, at the time, to be right.
When we make lists, we can deviate from those lists as much as we want. They are OUR lists. Nobody but OURS.
When a writer or podcaster makes a list, he is trying to 'help' their readers in focusing on what player may be better than another.
We perceive these lists to be an honest effort in trying to help us.
But, what if they really don't believe what they write?

I'm currently in a draft with Frank Stampfl.
Until this morning, I did not know Mr. Stampfl from a hole in the ground.
By dumb luck, I was doing some research for pitching and came across his name.
On the CBS site, there are individual lists by writers and podcasters.
One of those lists is that of Mr. Stampfl.
I looked at it and was shocked.
Listed as the number 22 pitcher on his list is Zack Greinke.
What?!
I'm in a draft with this fella and I know I just got Greinke in the 11th round!
He was the 45th Starting Pitcher taken!
Not only that, but in the sixth round, he drafted Zack.......Wheeler, a pitcher he had seven spots below Greinke on his 'helpful' list.

This really isn't to besmirch Stampfl. I get that it is a knee jerk reaction to put seasoned pitchers and pitchers with a history of being good high on lists.
But man, whatever happened to 'Practice what you preach'?
Talk about a 'value pick'.
An opportunity to get somebody listed as 22 on that list for half the price of 45?
It's clear that he doesn't really believe in Greinke.
At the same time, he wants to perpetuate the thought that Greinke is as good as he ever was.
It just goes to show that we have to take all 'helpful' lists with a grain of salt.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

Thurman15
Posts: 158
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:27 pm

Re: 'Helpful' Lists

Post by Thurman15 » Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:16 pm

Interesting. Like everybody, I make lists. But I must lie to myself because sometimes I skip over a better pitcher (or hitter) and go lower on my list. So why didn't I just have the "lower" pitcher ahead of the higher pitcher ? I don't know. But I admit I do it. And I guess a lot of people do it. However it is harder to defend when your list is read by other fantasy players. I'm not criticizing Frank Stampf but if was teaching in a classroom, how would he explain to his students. I don't think it was to deliberately mislead people. I believe, just like myself, Frank lied to himself.

Regarding Greinke (and I realize this is not relevant), but I have him so far down my list that I will never get him. To me, he is aging and striking out less batters. I don't want to be caught the year he "really" slips. But it brings up another point. I sometimes don't put a player on my list at all if I am absolutely certain he will be long gone before I would pick him. Am I the only one that does this ? What about you Dan ? I'm a Yankee fan but Aaron Judge and Giancarlo don't ever get on my list. For me, I expect them to get hurt a lot, pretty well every year. And trust me, I love Aaron Judge's leadership, his dedication, his power and his defence. But not a chance in hell would I take him as high as he goes. So I don't list him. And since I detest Tampa's use of platoons, I rarely consider a Tampa hitter. And I dropped all their starters since they won't get the innings. I love analytics, but I believe Tampa goes overboard. Happy Remembrance Day to all.
Rogers Hornsby, Hall of Famer with the Cardinals was once asked " You love Baseball Rogers, but what do you do in the winter ? " His response......"I stare out the window and wait for spring "

DOUGHBOYS
Posts: 13088
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:00 pm

Re: 'Helpful' Lists

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:37 am

I am being held to a higher standard because I am writing in public. If misleading people, I would lose my integrity and why would somebody want to read what somebody without integrity had to say on a regular basis? (Oh wait, that happens with social media all the time)
If saying something in public, OWN IT.
Stampfl probably did not mislead people on purpose, but he did something worse. He made a crappy list. A list that we can find by almost ANY writer, then didn't stand behind it when skin was on the line.
The more I think about it, the more mad I get.
I know Stampfl was probably addressing Yahoo Kids who don't know fantasy baseball as well as we do. But dammit, if not thinking that Greinke is the number 22 best Starter, DON''T PUT HIM ON YOUR LIST OF TOP STARTERS!
And I would cut him a break if he had picked another on his list before Greinke, which he did.
But letting him slip to the 11th round and showing no interest after 44 other Starters have been selected let's us know that Greinke was a non-pick for him and that Greinke was Casper the ghost.
So write THAT. Write that Greinke should NOT be taken as a Starter any longer.
Don't write a list just to match your fellow scribes list (Which undoubtedly was his purpose)
I want a writer who rocks the boat a bit, we have enough sheep among writers.
Not a writer who is disingenuous.

I never leave any player off of a list. I know there are players I would never draft. Joey Votto, for years, was a non-pick for me.
But having Votto on my lists, especially for live drafts, helped me in ascertaining who would be picked before the next pick came around to me.
If I was drafter two and I knew that drafter one needed a 1B with Votto tops on my list, that is information that I could certainly use.

I lie to myself with lists (Certainly not listing a Starter as 22nd best and letting him fall to 45th).
Wait, I wouldn't even call it lying to myself. Each draft takes on a different story.
In one draft, Randal Grichuk may fill the bill for power even though I have a speedster above him.
And sometimes a McCutchen-type is needed over a power guy, etc.
Our lists, our personal lists, are not an end all, be all.
They are a guide.
A guide to help us navigate the trails that lead us through a draft.
Using our list verbatim would not make us very good drafters. Sometimes, we have to make decisions in seconds. The name at the top off our list looking like a square peg for a round hole.
We improvise.
If not improvising, then we haven't learned much since being that Yahoo Kid. :D
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

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