Why be a Pirate Fan?

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:44 am

Penny could be a good closer somewhere.

NorCalAtlFan · Post by **NorCalAtlFan** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:45 am

cool. partial hijack? yikes, we took it and repackaged it as a tom glavine hate/lovefest.

Pirates might get Ackley. So with Alvarez, Tabata, McCutcheon, LaRoche Jr, they might have a decent core in a couple years.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:45 am

Originally posted by Scott Boras:

fair enough. i'll give it a rest, but if the braves get penny (who's an even greater risk than glavine for poor performance or injury)... well, i might recommend frank wren audition for the pirates. he'd fit right in!

sorry dan for partially hijacking your thread.

Interesting conversation always supercedes hijackings!!!

Schwks · Post by **Schwks** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:58 am

What I dont understand is how they wind up always getting a few mid-level prospects rather then the top dogs.

Last year they traded Bay, who still had another year of team control and ended up with Mossw and LaRoche. I dont think any of those guys was a top ten prospect for Bos or LAD. I dont think any projects as anything other then an average regular at best.

Then they traded Marte and Nady (both of whom were very productive at the time) and got back

Karstens, Ohlendorf, Tabata...also none projecting very high.

McLouth is 27...leave aside the big names...Hanson, Heyward...they couldnt get a Medlen?

Scott Boras · Post by **Scott Boras** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:03 am

Hey Dan, how about a list of organizations that chronically fed other teams their stars and acted as their AAA club in addition to Pittsburgh? I can't remember all of them, but the Expos had Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Larry Walker, and Vlad Guerrero. Can you imagine if they had kept all 4 during the 90's. Sometimes it sucks that players change teams so frequently these days. Sometimes = most teams outside of Boston, Los Angeles, and New York. Another cool list would be players that SHOULD have stayed with one team with Griffey being at the top of the list.

Scott Boras · Post by **Scott Boras** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:05 am

Originally posted by Schwks:

What I dont understand is how they wind up always getting a few mid-level prospects rather then the top dogs.

Last year they traded Bay, who still had another year of team control and ended up with Mossw and LaRoche. I dont think any of those guys was a top ten prospect for Bos or LAD. I dont think any projects as anything other then an average regular at best.

Then they traded Marte and Nady (both of whom were very productive at the time) and got back

Karstens, Ohlendorf, Tabata...also none projecting very high.

McLouth is 27...leave aside the big names...Hanson, Heyward...they couldnt get a Medlen? Exactly! Well said.

Edwards Kings · Post by **Edwards Kings** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:11 am

Originally posted by Scott Boras:

If the Braves sign Penny after releasing Glavine, I will have a heart attack! Hanson I can understand. Hudson I can undertstand. Sign Penny and I'll be leading the mob with a pitchfork and a torch.

I will bring the matches!

Oh, and the beer...fruit optional!

NorCalAtlFan · Post by **NorCalAtlFan** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:11 am

Hell, the Expos gave up Sizemore, C Lee and B Phillips for Bart Colon fairly recently.

Dub · Post by **Dub** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:22 am

Originally posted by NorCalAtlFan:

Hell, the Expos gave up Sizemore, C Lee and B Phillips for Bart Colon fairly recently. Omar at his best

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:24 am

Originally posted by Scott Boras:

Hey Dan, how about a list of organizations that chronically fed other teams their stars and acted as their AAA club in addition to Pittsburgh? I can't remember all of them, but the Expos had Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Larry Walker, and Vlad Guerrero. Can you imagine if they had kept all 4 during the 90's. Sometimes it sucks that players change teams so frequently these days. Sometimes = most teams outside of Boston, Los Angeles, and New York. Another cool list would be players that SHOULD have stayed with one team with Griffey being at the top of the list. Good ideas.

I've got a non-baseball one in the works and a couple of others that are being compiled as we speak.

I've already spoke of Willie Mays and how he should have been a lifetime Giant.

Chipper Jones should always be a Brave. He just should, whenever I see Chipper's name in print, I think of Skip Carey saying it.

Jack Wilson. What player more resembles the Pirate organization than Jack Wilson?

Joba. So many stories that only New York papers can deal with future stories.

Starter/reliever, Mom's a drug dealer, Dad, knockin on heavens door, a hard drinker, looks like Babe Ruth, midges...and he's only been around a couple of years.

Nick Markakis. Peter Angelos pet. He is greek, as is Angelos. Unlike Wieters, Angelos insisted that Markakis stay up with the club while another year in the Minors may have done him some good. That turned out pretty well. Markakis stays in Baltimore as long as Angelos does.

Joe Mauer. Special case for a smaller franchise.It'll be intersting to see if money means more than hometown. The Twins will not be able to come close to what others will offer and they should be trying like mad to give him a deal NOW.

Michael Young/Ian Kinsler. Tough to think of one without the other on the field. They'll retire at different times like Biggio and Bagwell did, but they are linked, and it should be a link with the Rangers. Young especially, as he is not spectacular enough for a big money team to sign him. Kinsler may chase the cash.

Rollins/Utley/Howard. Hard to think of these guys going elsewhere.

David Wright and Jose Reyes. Read the above.

Albert Pujols. A mass exodus of Cardinal fans if he leaves.

Derek Jeter. If this were a top 10 list, here is your #1.

There are others, I'm sure.

Funny that Boston does not have that franchise head that most high profile teams have. Small cases could be made for Lester, Ellsbury, Pedroia, and Youkilis, and even Varitek wasn't a sure-sign last year, but weird, nobody to hang a hat on for a forever stay.

Berkman, Oswalt, and Helton will probably go after their contracts are over, if not before.

Smaller franchises have the largest problems. Morneau, Fielder, Votto, and Lincecum are all likely to sign with big money teams before their careers are over.

Giving any pitcher more than a three year contract is torture if the arm goes kaput. With that in mind, and half-joking about Joba, its hard to see a pitcher sticking with a franchise for the duration.

In these days and times, most players are thought of as commodities and even the players on this list could be out of town, to the shock of few.

anpyanks · Post by **anpyanks** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:44 am

Originally posted by Dub:

quote:Originally posted by NorCalAtlFan:

Hell, the Expos gave up Sizemore, C Lee and B Phillips for Bart Colon fairly recently. Omar at his best [/QUOTE]omar wasnt the gm of that deal

Scott Boras · Post by **Scott Boras** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:13 am

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

quote:Originally posted by Scott Boras:

Hey Dan, how about a list of organizations that chronically fed other teams their stars and acted as their AAA club in addition to Pittsburgh? I can't remember all of them, but the Expos had Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Larry Walker, and Vlad Guerrero. Can you imagine if they had kept all 4 during the 90's. Sometimes it sucks that players change teams so frequently these days. Sometimes = most teams outside of Boston, Los Angeles, and New York. Another cool list would be players that SHOULD have stayed with one team with Griffey being at the top of the list. Good ideas.

I've got a non-baseball one in the works and a couple of others that are being compiled as we speak.

I've already spoke of Willie Mays and how he should have been a lifetime Giant.

Chipper Jones should always be a Brave. He just should, whenever I see Chipper's name in print, I think of Skip Carey saying it.

Jack Wilson. What player more resembles the Pirate organization than Jack Wilson?

Joba. So many stories that only New York papers can deal with future stories.

Starter/reliever, Mom's a drug dealer, Dad, knockin on heavens door, a hard drinker, looks like Babe Ruth, midges...and he's only been around a couple of years.

Nick Markakis. Peter Angelos pet. He is greek, as is Angelos. Unlike Wieters, Angelos insisted that Markakis stay up with the club while another year in the Minors may have done him some good. That turned out pretty well. Markakis stays in Baltimore as long as Angelos does.

Joe Mauer. Special case for a smaller franchise.It'll be intersting to see if money means more than hometown. The Twins will not be able to come close to what others will offer and they should be trying like mad to give him a deal NOW.

Michael Young/Ian Kinsler. Tough to think of one without the other on the field. They'll retire at different times like Biggio and Bagwell did, but they are linked, and it should be a link with the Rangers. Young especially, as he is not spectacular enough for a big money team to sign him. Kinsler may chase the cash.

Rollins/Utley/Howard. Hard to think of these guys going elsewhere.

David Wright and Jose Reyes. Read the above.

Albert Pujols. A mass exodus of Cardinal fans if he leaves.

Derek Jeter. If this were a top 10 list, here is your #1.

There are others, I'm sure.

Funny that Boston does not have that franchise head that most high profile teams have. Small cases could be made for Lester, Ellsbury, Pedroia, and Youkilis, and even Varitek wasn't a sure-sign last year, but weird, nobody to hang a hat on for a forever stay.

Berkman, Oswalt, and Helton will probably go after their contracts are over, if not before.

Smaller franchises have the largest problems. Morneau, Fielder, Votto, and Lincecum are all likely to sign with big money teams before their careers are over.

Giving any pitcher more than a three year contract is torture if the arm goes kaput. With that in mind, and half-joking about Joba, its hard to see a pitcher sticking with a franchise for the duration.

In these days and times, most players are thought of as commodities and even the players on this list could be out of town, to the shock of few. [/QUOTE]Jack Wilson

Red Sox Nation · Post by **Red Sox Nation** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:15 am

Originally posted by Chico Lind's Hermanos:

quote:Originally posted by Dub:

quote:Originally posted by NorCalAtlFan:

Hell, the Expos gave up Sizemore, C Lee and B Phillips for Bart Colon fairly recently. Omar at his best [/QUOTE]omar wasnt the gm of that deal [/QUOTE]Yes he was.

# June 27, 2002 traded Grady Sizemore, Brandon Phillips, Cliff Lee and Lee Stevens to the Cleveland Indians for Bartolo Colon and Tim Drew

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:49 am

Originally posted by Scott Boras:

Hey Dan, how about a list of organizations that chronically fed other teams their stars and acted as their AAA club in addition to Pittsburgh? I can't remember all of them, but the Expos had Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Larry Walker, and Vlad Guerrero. Can you imagine if they had kept all 4 during the 90's. Sometimes it sucks that players change teams so frequently these days. Sometimes = most teams outside of Boston, Los Angeles, and New York. Another cool list would be players that SHOULD have stayed with one team with Griffey being at the top of the list. The Warriors do this in the NBA it seems.

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:25 pm

Originally posted by Scott Boras:

I can't remember all of them, but the Expos had Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Larry Walker, and Vlad Guerrero. Can you imagine if they had kept all 4 during the 90's. Not to mention:

Marquis Grissom

Moises Alou

Delino DeShields

Mike Lansing

Rondell White

Dennis Martinez

Javier Vazquez

Jeff Fassero

Ugueth Urbina

TOXIC ASSETS · Post by **TOXIC ASSETS** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 6:18 am

Baseball in Pittsburgh is a joke. Obviously, a great football town, but the taxpayers of PA should have never had to help pay for a baseball stadium....in a town that won't support baseball and whose team never wins.

ESPN8 THE OCHO · Post by **ESPN8 THE OCHO** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:19 pm

They should allow Mark Cuban to buy the franchise. It would be interesting to see what would happen. I bet they would become a winning team.

billywaz · Post by **billywaz** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:28 am

Originally posted by ESPN8 THE OCHO:

They should allow Mark Cuban to buy the franchise. It would be interesting to see what would happen. I bet they would become a winning team. Agreed.

Plus he would add his own "personality" to the team (I think that is a big reason why the Pirates "brass" doesn't want him there).

The shame is PNC Park is an awesome place to watch a game.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:52 am

After trading McLouth and Nigel Morgan, two budding stars in their 20's, the Pirates are rumored to be extending 32 year olds Freddie Sanchez and Jack Wilson.

They continue to be a AAA team for the other MLB teams.

The amusing thing is seeing "experts" analyze their trades. In the end, who they receive for their players is of no matter. If they turn out well, they'll be retraded, if not, extended.

A franchise like no other.

Maybe they should consider a name change to the Pirites, the mineral known as "fools gold".

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:59 am

Pirate announcers are fond of saying that Wilson and Sanchez are throwbacks with their style of play.

I agree. Until the 80's, speed and power were considered bonuses for middle infielders.

MGBMARTY · Post by **MGBMARTY** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:18 am

Hey Dough

I have been a Bucco fan for way too many years. Thought Clemente was most under rated RF in history. As a kid I saw Bob Moose no-hit the Mets.Loved it when they beat the Orioles and their 4 20 game winners They did not get fan support even when they were competitive. Extending Wilson and Sanchez's contracts is insane since I read they were trying to move them. Had some hope a few years back with there SP's Maholm Duke Gorzelany Snell Now I guess I have to wait on their OF's McCutcheon Young Moss with G Jones going to 1st if Laroche is dumped. Viscious cycle. Will always be a fan but any of us could do a better job in running the team

Marty

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:51 am

Marty,

When I think of the Pirates, I think of Clemente. I don't underrate him. He played in the golden era for nl outfielders. Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Billy Williams, Lou Brock, and Clemente made it awfully tough for anyone else to make an All-Star game in the outfield. It's no wonder it was the NL that dominated the All-Star game during that era. And all are in the Hall.

As for today's Pirites, I agree, I think if anyone in the NFBC were given the GM job that they could not do any worse than the way the Pirites have been run over the last 15 years.

bjoak · Post by **bjoak** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:02 am

I can get behind the Pirates unloading. The reason why is that the worse you are, the less it hurts (financially) to get rid of someone. For example, if you are a team who went to the playoffs last year, you have a lot of fans who come out to the park looking for a contender. If you won 70 games the year before, your fans aren't showing up for that reason. It is more because they show up no matter what or because they are fans who enjoy a casual MLB game without expectation of winning. In other words, there is very little difference between fan enthusiasm over a team that wins 65 games compared to a team that wins 70 games. Going from 90 to 85 is a much bigger deal.

This kind of analysis goes into these decisions and I am all for teams explaining it outright. Say, "We think this is a 70 win club and there is no way we can have a winning season, let alone make the playoffs. While we are gutting 10 million now, we are going to put that money over here and as soon as we have an 81 win club, we are going to reinvest to make it an 86 win club for a possible playoff run." They need to follow through afterward, but the financial gains of a playoff appearance are such that it makes complete sense to follow through on that message when the time comes.

Of course, you need a team that can turn your trades and dumps into an 81 win team and I admit that hasn't been the Bucs, but what they're doing makes financial sense.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:09 am

I would agree with your post, Brian, were it not for the fact that Jack Wilson is there highest paid player and that they are contemplating re-upping both he and Sanchez.

True, the Pirates have no intentions of winning in the near future, but even the financial decisions have made little sense.

In the end, they are doing every current player on their roster a big favor by trading them. The others must play as if a AAA player knowing that other teams are watching.

bjoak · Post by **bjoak** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:33 am

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

I would agree with your post, Brian, were it not for the fact that Jack Wilson is there highest paid player and that they are contemplating re-upping both he and Sanchez.

True, the Pirates have no intentions of winning in the near future, but even the financial decisions have made little sense.

In the end, they are doing every current player on their roster a big favor by trading them. The others must play as if a AAA player knowing that other teams are watching. Sanchez I think they'll move and Wilson, yeah, you have to keep some guys to man the positions, but I'm not defending their decisions in a general sense; they've sucked for a long time by making bad decisions.

On the bright side, they fleeced the Nationals pretty well. Not that Milledge will definitely work out, but they didn't give anything up to get him.