Mark McGwire

Navel Lint · Post by **Navel Lint** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:37 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

Now, does anyone think Maris's record of 61 homers will ever be broken?

If Maris’ 61 are legit, then that total can be legitimately beaten. The problem is that if it happens in the next year or two, who will believe it.

In a three year span Maris hit 16, 39, and then 61 homers. Good luck to the guy doing that now. That player could take a p*** test 10 times a week and a large portion of the fans would just roll their eyes and respond with “HGH”.

I’m not blind to the fact that players were taking PED’s. But I think that it is fair to put those players in context of the era they were playing in.

Let’s face it, the players of the sixties and seventies were drinking the “spiked coffee” before the game. That Amphetamine filled coffee mug was a performance enhancer just as steroids are. To the same extent, no. But an enhancer none the less. If you could go back in time, my guess is that you would find plenty of players from the 20’s that would make the claim that they would have hit “25+ bombs” a year if they were “jacked up” before each game like the guys of the 60’s.

Navel Lint · Post by **Navel Lint** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:34 am

Originally posted by swampass:

i find it sickening now how all these bullshit writers are throwing big mac under the bus. ask those tough questions back then.. dont play monday morning qb now and act like tough guys. I agree. I think many of the writers are punishing the players in part because of their own failings. From ’94 through ’01, there were very few stories about steroids. But I bet you could find dozens if not hundreds of articles about the ball being juiced. I think many of the writer’s just feel plain duped and are now getting their payback.

I know many fans that feel duped about what they were watching.

Do I? No.

I’m not suggesting that I had any idea that the players were on steroids, I didn’t. But it in no way took away from the enjoyment I had watching the game then or my memory of it now. I’m in my early forties; the baseball of my youth was Rose, Bench, Jackson, Stargell, Buckner, Reuschel, and Carew. I’ll love those guys with a passion that can’t be changed, but I enjoy watching Arod, Jeter, Ichiro and Bradley just as much today as I ever loved the game. (OK, not Bradley).

I just think that it is a little disingenuous for the sports writers to get on the high horse now about McGwire and steroids when 10 years ago they were tripping over their own tongues lapping up the home run chase story.

Thunder · Post by **Thunder** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:58 am

IMHO

say what you want about Mcgwire and all the other steroid users (to be named later), but it was a lot of fun at Busch Stadium while he was there. he brought an unbelievable excitement to batting practice. if you didn't see it, sorry. does that make everything right, NO. but the owners bought into it, and that's the way it was.

i'll never forget the astros Billy Wagner throwing BB's at McGwire in the bottom of the 11th at Busch with two outs. Big Mac got him and parked it OVER Big Mac land in the upper deck. the crowd went stupid. nobody wanted to leave the place.

as a fan, whats wrong with that feeling of excitement?

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:20 am

I recall being very leery of big dudes with back trouble and suspected them to be the obvious roiders.

Juan Gonzalez, McGwire, etc, etc, etc.

The baseball purists are trying to make the game bigger than it is...it's simply the entertainment business...and homeruns entertain the common bleacher fan = more butts in seats = more viewers on tv = more money in commercials.

Navel Lint · Post by **Navel Lint** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:56 am

Originally posted by Kentucky Reign:

IMHO

say what you want about Mcgwire and all the other steroid users (to be named later), but it was a lot of fun at Busch Stadium while he was there. he brought an unbelievable excitement to batting practice. if you didn't see it, sorry. does that make everything right, NO. but the owners bought into it, and that's the way it was.

i'll never forget the astros Billy Wagner throwing BB's at McGwire in the bottom of the 11th at Busch with two outs. Big Mac got him and parked it OVER Big Mac land in the upper deck. the crowd went stupid. nobody wanted to leave the place.

as a fan, whats wrong with that feeling of excitement? I agree.

I think any true fan of the game feels like they have a certain entitlement or ownership over the game. More times than not their passion is routed in their youth and can never be replaced by “today’s game”. Whether the passion was gained in the 40’s, 60’s, or 80’s; things will never be like they were “back in my day”. But what I think many lose sight of is the fact that baseball is entertainment.

We hear players say all the time that sports are a business. Well, to them it is. But to the fan, its entertainment. Bottom line; was I entertained? As a Cub fan, when Sosa was putting baseballs onto Waveland Ave, I was entertained. It doesn’t mean that I have to think Sosa was the greatest home run hitter of all-time or that I don’t like a 1-0 shutout, but I was entertained.

I have a similar type argument with Sox fans here in Chicago. I ask them why the Sox don’t sell out the park like the Cubs do. I almost always get the same answer; I’ll go when they are winning. It’s not that they are being front runners, it’s just that they seem to feel that the Sox need to put a winning product on the field before they will pay to watch. My feeling has always been that as long as the team is making an effort to win, then I’m willing to spend my dollar on my favorite choice of entertainment, even if I have no more than a 50/50 chance of seeing them actually win.

TOXIC ASSETS · Post by **TOXIC ASSETS** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:27 pm

I'll give McGwire a little credit for finally admiting use. However, all of these cheaters must be punished, and the only way to do it is to exclude them from the Hall Of Fame. Integrity should mean something. Yeah, I know that guys like Ty Cobb are in, but nobody ever accused Ty of cheating the game.

headhunters · Post by **headhunters** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:23 am

navel lint. the sox fans you are asking are not good fans. their answer is b.s. I have friends like that. the real reason is the one you gave- they spend their $ elsewhere. the actual reasons the cubs sellout and the sox don't are these: A) since the tribune bought the cubs they SLAUGHTERED the sox in the marketing department. if you live in chicago there even have been internal tribune memos leaked to the media from the 80's and 90's along with e-mails to the effect of branding the cubs as "lovable losers" . the cubs brass knew that the age of the casual fan (read women) was upon us and that the sell point was not good baseball- but entertainment. no one that watched baseball in the 50's 60's or 70's ever heard the phrase "entertainment $'s". the cubs "got it" way quicker than the sox. B) harrey carey going from the sox to the cubs. harry understood entertainment to the max. the fact the sox forced him out just proves how ignorant the sox were at that time of the shift from "baseball" to "entertainment". C) eddie einhorn- who along with reinsdorf was (sadly) much more interested in "baseball as a whole" than the sox. einhorn was way ahead of his time with cable and channel 32. problem was- most people did not "receive" channel 32 well. 5-10 years of that; and the advent of the superstation (wgn) hatched about 20 million cub fans. if you don't think this is true- go back and compare sox/cubs attendance figures from the 60's 70's 80's. mark where harry was, when the trib bought the cubs and when the sox went to channel 32. pretty clear

headhunters · Post by **headhunters** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:32 am

navel- btw if you want FURTHER proof of marketing tv etc. look at the hawks attendence before wurtz died and after. ya- the team is good now. but they drew about 30% more fans the 1st year. why? geez- look at it. put the hawks on tv- what a revolutionary idea! bring back players the fans loved like bobby hull- instead of treating him like crap. wow- who would have thunk it?. what you are seeing with the hawks is what we saw with cubs /sox in the 80's. one ownership got it the other didn't. the disgrace for the tribune was- they never tried to win. never. not a knock on cub fans- the cubs fans had "lovable losers" branded into their being. they are proud to be " lovable losers". only when the trib decided to sell (more years ago than you might realize) did they try to win. to up the $. it is and was a business to them.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:22 am

A friend of mine asked me to give an over-under on how long Mark McGwire remains St Louis hitting coach.

After not too much thought, I told him the week after the season ends.

I think little of McGwire. Hiding for five years after trying to avoid questions from Congress. Only "coming out" when it best suits him and to be back in the major leagues.

Even in coming out, he says that he didn't do steroids for enhancement. A load.

Anybody that comes out now has to meet the Canseco test. When Canseco shakes his head at Clemens, ARod, Palmeiro, and McGwire, there always seems to be more to the story. Integrity fades from these four superstars when Canseco is to be believed over them.

The point is not that McGwire took steroids, that was a career decision, I am fine with that and not fine with that at the same time.

The point is that McGwire still lacks character. There is no moral fiber. Somehow in his mind, the home run record is good if he says that steroids were only taken for health reasons. Few buy into it.

Now, a steroid dealer has come out and said that McGwire told him that he wanted to "bigger, faster, stronger". Aches and pains were not mentioned.

Most big hitters, for the most part, fail as hitting instructors. 'Grip it and rip it', won't work for Brendan Ryan. Time will tell whether McGwire will succeed in that role. One thing that'll work against him though, there won't be a shot or pill to provide a shortcut.

[ January 22, 2010, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: DOUGHBOYS ]

headhunters · Post by **headhunters** » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:57 am

honestly- and i admit no medical training- i think mcquire has serious emotional issues. he really isn't steeped in reality. larussa might be in the same camp- and you can ad him to the list of canseco head shakes. btw- canseco might not be likable- but i think he has told the truth at every turn. he is ad hominem to the max. in fact, if people ever needed proof that the trial is about the person- not the facts- he is it.

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:44 pm

Originally posted by headhunters:

honestly- and i admit no medical training- i think mcquire has serious emotional issues. he really isn't steeped in reality. larussa might be in the same camp- and you can ad him to the list of canseco head shakes. btw- canseco might not be likable- but i think he has told the truth at every turn. he is ad hominem to the max. in fact, if people ever needed proof that the trial is about the person- not the facts- he is it. I agree...Canseco took the label "rat" but it takes a "rat" to expose bullshit cheaters.

Walla Walla · Post by **Walla Walla** » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:14 pm

I call Bullshit on the whole thing. Don't tell me about the Hall of Shame! Oh we have to save the game they scream. Yep the game was about dead until Roid players started hitting homeruns.

Meanwhile Pete Rose was banned from Baseball.

Than oh my God they caught us! We have to ban them! You know kids watch this game. Half the Yankees in the Hall were full blown drunks! Thats OK though. Its legal. Yep Hall of sham!

[ January 22, 2010, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Walla Walla ]