The Vegas Contract League

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KJ Duke
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The Vegas Contract League

Post by KJ Duke » Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:12 pm

As some of you know I have run the Gridiron league in Vegas for the past 10 years hosted by Greg and the NFFC. It's a DC-style format but with the addition of cash draft slot bidding in the first two rounds which go into a side pool which is paid out to weekly winners. It's a fun league with money on the line each week. It's rare that anyone involved misses a season so it feels like a home league among friends.

Some of you also may have heard of the contract league which I've run on and off as a private baseball league for more than 10 years. In this league the entry fee is determined based on the MLB salaries of the players you draft. It's a bit too time-consuming and complex to do as a live league, although we've discussed wanting to do a live one for many years.

So I've come up with a modified/ simplified version of these 2 concepts that I think works as a "live" league in Vegas, with the objective being:
1) Make it a really fun event
2) Keep everyone involved all season with a weekly payout, so a bad start or even a mostly bad season doesn't derail you from league winnings
3) Create a home league feel with a group that will want to come to Vegas each year to compete in this one-of-a-kind league.

And with that, I propose ..

Overview
• 15-team draft champion format - no FAAB
• 40 rounds
• 10-player roster expansion draft (reverse order of standings) during the All-Star Break
• Season ends the final weekend in August

NFBC Prize Pool
• 5x5 roto scoring
• $1000 NFBC entry fee
• Top 3 for 5x5 roto scoring pays $7000 / $3500 / $1500

Private Prize Pool
The private pool entry fee is $200 per team plus ...
1) Cash bidding for draft slots in Round 1 & 2. Draft slots are auctioned off in order. A pick is made after each draft slot is won.
2) Players drafted in the first 3 rounds will incur a cash cost equal to that player's MLB contract based on $10 per $1 million in salary; for example, if you choose to draft a $15 million per year player he would cost you an additional $150. A list of probable draft choices for these rounds with salaries will be provided in advance of the draft.
→ No clock running for the first three rounds - we'll give everyone a couple minutes to check salaries and make a decision.

• Round 2 draft slots will determine the order of all other rounds (the first pick in R2 gets the last pick in R3, then the first pick in R4 which begins the "free" portion of the draft)
• Cash bids and player costs are due in Vegas via cash/check/paypal at the conclusion of the draft

Private payout
• 100% of the private pool will be paid out equally to 20 weekly high scorers
••• opening weekend games will be combined with week 2
••• all-star week games will be combined with the following week
• Weekly winners will be based on each team's stats for that week translated into points (not roto) as shown below

Weekly points totals will be based on cutline scoring:
HITTERS: AB -1 , H +4 , R/RBI +2 , HR +6 , SB +5
PITCHERS IP +3 , Hit/BB -1 , ER -2 , K +1 , W +6 ,SV +8

And just to clarify - the season-long prize pool will be based on roto standings like any other DC league, although it will end about a month early --- avoiding the diluted roster weeks at year-end.

Meanwhile, the weekly prize pool will be determined based on cutline-style points scoring although it will use stats from the lineup you choose rather than optimal scoring like the cutline itself.
Last edited by KJ Duke on Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:36 am, edited 4 times in total.

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KJ Duke
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Re: The Vegas Contract League

Post by KJ Duke » Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:26 pm

·
Last edited by KJ Duke on Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:47 pm, edited 9 times in total.

thundherd
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Re: The Vegas Contract League

Post by thundherd » Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:37 pm

KJ - I would like to join the league. It sounds like a fun format. Thanks.

Steve Marshall

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KJ Duke
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Re: The Vegas Contract League

Post by KJ Duke » Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:01 pm

thundherd wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:37 pm
KJ - I would like to join the league. It sounds like a fun format. Thanks.

Steve Marshall
Will do Steve, you're on the list.

COZ
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Re: The Vegas Contract League

Post by COZ » Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:42 pm

KJ Duke wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:12 pm

• Season ends the final weekend in August
Season ends in August? This is un-American & offends my all-games-count sensibilities & paraphrasing Billy Beane my shit doesn’t work for 5 months. I mean it doesn’t really work for 6 months either but I like to have September to delude myself into thinking my team(s) will rise like a Phoenix from the depths of the standings. So if you’re amenable to a full season I would join this. If it’s a DC, why not go the full 162, or 163 as the case may be? Curious as to your rationale on that.
COZ

"Baseball has it share of myths, things that blur the line between fact & fiction....Abner Doubleday inventing the game, Babe Ruth's Called Shot, Sid Finch's Fastball, the 2017 Astros...Barry Bonds's 762 HR's" -- Tom Verducci

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KJ Duke
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Re: The Vegas Contract League

Post by KJ Duke » Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:53 pm

COZ wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:42 pm
KJ Duke wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:12 pm

• Season ends the final weekend in August
Season ends in August? This is un-American & offends my all-games-count sensibilities & paraphrasing Billy Beane my shit doesn’t work for 5 months. I mean it doesn’t really work for 6 months either but I like to have September to delude myself into thinking my team(s) will rise like a Phoenix from the depths of the standings. So if you’re amenable to a full season I would join this. If it’s a DC, why not go the full 162, or 163 as the case may be? Curious as to your rationale on that.
The final month of the season is just sad baseball Coz. The season should be 100 games. I feel like I am caving to the money-hungry nature of the league by letting it go thru August! :D Every league should end by August, but this is the only one I can control.
Last edited by KJ Duke on Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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KJ Duke
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Re: The Vegas Contract League

Post by KJ Duke » Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:46 pm

UPDATED INTEREST LIST (post my exit :) )

THE VEGAS CONTRACT LEAGUE
Wednesday, March 23, 4pm pacific time
1. Scott Keikoan/ Steve Wells
2. Rob Geise/ Matt Anderson
3. Steve Marshall
4. Todd Cohen
5. Matt Modica
6. Eric Albright
7. Jeff Campbell
8. Thomas Warner
9. John Pausma/Doug Gruber
10. Jon Stadtmueller/ Shawn Childs
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
Last edited by KJ Duke on Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Greg Ambrosius
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Re: The Vegas Contract League

Post by Greg Ambrosius » Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:55 am

I would just like to say WELL DONE to KJ and everyone for creating this new live event/contest. I will try to get the Bellagio suite again for this one and get the setup similar to our NFFC Gridiron League in September. Thanks to everyone for coming into Las Vegas a day early and making this the new kickoff event of our Las Vegas live events. I love it.
Greg Ambrosius
Founder, National Fantasy Baseball Championship
General Manager, Consumer Fantasy Games at SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @GregAmbrosius

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KJ Duke
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Re: The Vegas Contract League

Post by KJ Duke » Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:40 am

One minor tweak to the rules after further thought and discussion, the private pool will include an additional $200 per team entry along with draft slot bidding and player salaries. Thus, the absolute minimum a team could spend will be $1250 rather than $1050. This will give the weekly payout a higher floor.

COZ
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Re: The Vegas Contract League

Post by COZ » Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:40 pm

KJ Duke wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:40 am
One minor tweak to the rules after further thought and discussion, the private pool will include an additional $200 per team entry along with draft slot bidding and player salaries. Thus, the absolute minimum a team could spend will be $1250 rather than $1050. This will give the weekly payout a higher floor.
Understandable. Even Victor Frankenstein had to tweak his abominable creation. 8-)
COZ

"Baseball has it share of myths, things that blur the line between fact & fiction....Abner Doubleday inventing the game, Babe Ruth's Called Shot, Sid Finch's Fastball, the 2017 Astros...Barry Bonds's 762 HR's" -- Tom Verducci

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Ando
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Re: The Vegas Contract League

Post by Ando » Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:20 pm

COZ wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:40 pm
KJ Duke wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:40 am
One minor tweak to the rules after further thought and discussion, the private pool will include an additional $200 per team entry along with draft slot bidding and player salaries. Thus, the absolute minimum a team could spend will be $1250 rather than $1050. This will give the weekly payout a higher floor.
Understandable. Even Victor Frankenstein had to tweak his abominable creation. 8-)


Let's see it, Cozymoto. Be lucky #14.
"Luck is the residue of design."

-Branch Rickey

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KJ Duke
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Re: The Vegas Contract League

Post by KJ Duke » Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:34 pm

Ando wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:20 pm
COZ wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:40 pm
KJ Duke wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:40 am
One minor tweak to the rules after further thought and discussion, the private pool will include an additional $200 per team entry along with draft slot bidding and player salaries. Thus, the absolute minimum a team could spend will be $1250 rather than $1050. This will give the weekly payout a higher floor.
Understandable. Even Victor Frankenstein had to tweak his abominable creation. 8-)
Let's see it, Cozymoto. Be lucky #14.
Image

Teufel Hunden
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Re: The Vegas Contract League

Post by Teufel Hunden » Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:06 am

Coz, if 2021 NFBC $50 DC Champion John Pausma signs his soon to be released book "Dominating kindergarten dodgeball and $50 DC's" for you, would that be enough? :lol:

Tom

COZ
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Re: The Vegas Contract League

Post by COZ » Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:52 am

Teufel Hunden wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:06 am
Coz, if 2021 NFBC $50 DC Champion John Pausma signs his soon to be released book "Dominating kindergarten dodgeball and $50 DC's" for you, would that be enough? :lol:

Tom
That could help, as well as Ando & Giese agreeing to share some of their watermelon White Claw. In all seriousness, I refuse to accede to KJ’s fascist decision-making that seeks to normalize lopping off an entire month of the season. 8-)

P.S. If games suspended before the arbitrary August deadline are then resumed in September when stats then become “official,” will those September stats be applied nunc pro tunc back to that date or nah? Please advise. 8-)
COZ

"Baseball has it share of myths, things that blur the line between fact & fiction....Abner Doubleday inventing the game, Babe Ruth's Called Shot, Sid Finch's Fastball, the 2017 Astros...Barry Bonds's 762 HR's" -- Tom Verducci

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KJ Duke
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Re: The Vegas Contract League

Post by KJ Duke » Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:19 pm

COZ wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:52 am
Teufel Hunden wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:06 am
Coz, if 2021 NFBC $50 DC Champion John Pausma signs his soon to be released book "Dominating kindergarten dodgeball and $50 DC's" for you, would that be enough? :lol:

Tom
That could help, as well as Ando & Giese agreeing to share some of their watermelon White Claw. In all seriousness, I refuse to accede to KJ’s fascist decision-making that seeks to normalize lopping off an entire month of the season. 8-)

P.S. If games suspended before the arbitrary August deadline are then resumed in September when stats then become “official,” will those September stats be applied nunc pro tunc back to that date or nah? Please advise. 8-)
Thanks for bringing this up Perry Mason. The season will end when it ends, and each week will end when it ends.
→ PPD/suspended game scoring totals beyond the given scoring period will not be retroactively added back to change weekly totals. If the NFBC includes partial game stats at the end of that week they will count, otherwise not. Not sure how the site handles this.
→ PPD/suspended game stats will count for roto season totals if concluded by the final game of the last Sunday in August. Games after that will not count.

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KJ Duke
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Re: The Vegas Contract League

Post by KJ Duke » Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:29 am

COZ wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:52 am

P.S. If games suspended before the arbitrary August deadline are then resumed in September when stats then become “official,” will those September stats be applied nunc pro tunc back to that date or nah? Please advise. 8-)
P.S. Ending the season in August is not arbitrary. It roughly coincides with MLB roster expansion as well as many teams being eliminated from playoff contention which dilutes and bastardizes playing time and stats for many players - much like week 18 in he NFL.

The fantasy game needs this overhaul and I intend it to be the trendsetter for a better future of fantasy baseball. :geek:

COZ
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Re: The Vegas Contract League

Post by COZ » Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:13 pm

KJ Duke wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:29 am
COZ wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:52 am

P.S. If games suspended before the arbitrary August deadline are then resumed in September when stats then become “official,” will those September stats be applied nunc pro tunc back to that date or nah? Please advise. 8-)
P.S. Ending the season in August is not arbitrary. It roughly coincides with MLB roster expansion as well as many teams being eliminated from playoff contention which dilutes and bastardizes playing time and stats for many players - much like week 18 in he NFL.

The fantasy game needs this overhaul and I intend it to be the trendsetter for a better future of fantasy baseball. :geek:
Pretty much what I suspected your intent was. And now I know why the cutline contest ends in August. 8-)

It is an arbitrary ending date. Why not exclude the month of April then while we’re at it with all the cold weather, rainouts, snow outs, & the otherwise slow starts of many hitters & pitchers? Why not arbitrarily make it from May 1-August 31st? Is September baseball any less “sad” than April?

Further, there are significant obvious differences between Fantasy Football & Baseball where eliminating the final week in Fantasy Football is not equivalent to eliminating the final month of the baseball season. First, points scoring v. Rotisserie categories are different. Second, in fantasy football weeks 13-16 are the “playoffs” & thus more important in determining winners & it is logical to eliminate the final week because of the importance of those “playoff” weeks. In Fantasy baseball, it is merely another month of games & statistics with no more importance placed on it in determining winners than any other month. Frank “The Tank” Schwindel’s epic August-September performance should matter just as equally as Bryan LaHair’s April-June performance in 2012. The randomness & unpredictability of late season breakouts & call-ups makes it fun, not “sad.” September baseball matters. Frankie Schwindel matters. 162 games matter. 8-)
COZ

"Baseball has it share of myths, things that blur the line between fact & fiction....Abner Doubleday inventing the game, Babe Ruth's Called Shot, Sid Finch's Fastball, the 2017 Astros...Barry Bonds's 762 HR's" -- Tom Verducci

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Re: The Vegas Contract League

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:49 am

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but like the discussion about a full season or not.
And I hardly ever disagree with KJ, so there is a degree of fun for me. :lol:

September baseball has gotten a bad rap from the past. Most of the past has been cured for us.
Rosters are only expanded by two spots now. One of those spots almost always goes to a reliever that nobody gives a rats ass about.
Problem solved.
Players are 'rested' through the season. When a team clinches a pennant now, most players are only 'rested' for a day, as like the regular season.
It is NOT like football when good players miss a whole week.
Problem solved.
Really, the only major confinement is the 'saving' of young pitchers arms or Aces arms for the playoffs.
Something that most savvy fantasy managers know going into the final week of the season.
Not a problem.

The full season matters. Playing parts of a season whether it's a weekly game, a monthly game, or a April to August game is not the same game.
It only serves to make it a truncated or shortened game. Which, I guess, serves the fantasy football folks well.
We live and die more in September than other months because the standings come into focus for us as well as the standings mean a lot for the players on the field.
Changing it to April to August may seem like some kind of improvement to some, but really, it is just a change. Period.
It certainly is not an improvement.
If not playing till the season ends, it is not a real fantasy 'season'.

As said, I have no dog in this hunt, but Coz is 100 percent correct. September matters.
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Teufel Hunden
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Re: The Vegas Contract League

Post by Teufel Hunden » Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:02 am

Coz, thank you for standing up for the purity of our beloved hobby based entirely on statistics that may/may not have anything to do with determining who wins a baseball game.

Additionally, good luck with your six entries in the four week post-season contest. I am glad your fantasy baseball purity ended at game 162 so you could participate with a clear conscience. :D

I will keep a co-owner seat open for you in case you want to join us.

Tom

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KJ Duke
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Re: The Vegas Contract League

Post by KJ Duke » Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:41 pm

DOUGHBOYS wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:49 am
I don't have a dog in this hunt, but like the discussion about a full season or not.
And I hardly ever disagree with KJ, so there is a degree of fun for me. :lol:

It only serves to make it a truncated or shortened game. Which, I guess, serves the fantasy football folks well.


This is another issue, Dan. No doubt.

The excruciatingly long season is a disadvantage for two-sport players. Particularly busy employed ones. Being all those things, that's another factor along with my reaching a point of baseball burnout later in the season. Maybe I just need to retire from FB. Not sure. I 'm still excited to play every Spring but worn of it by September.

Maybe I got spoiled by the "sprint" season. Really enjoyed that, which makes me think maybe it's more a too-long season issue than a football issue.

For this particular format, a distinguishing feature is the weekly high-score prize and I didn't want to dilute that down by the full 26 weeks as it may already be well below the gridiron weekly. So, multitude of reasons to have a shorter season here. I was 99% joking and 1% wishing that I'm setting a trend knowing many and probably most would be in your camp.

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KJ Duke
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Re: The Vegas Contract League

Post by KJ Duke » Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:56 pm

That said, Coz's stubborn view of THIS league is unfounded. It's a unique concept and rule set that should not be tethered to the 1973 rotisserie chicken ruleset. To accept all the other changes but get hung up on one small element which fits this concept better - already having short time-frame components with urgency built-in - is absurdity.

The other practical consideration for this and the cutline, on top of all the others, is that an early end to this side-contest would allow one to focus on the main event and other high stakes lges in the critical final weeks. This is just a distraction league for junkies. :mrgreen:

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Re: The Vegas Contract League

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:54 pm

Point taken.

There isn't as much 'work' required for football and baseball does have a way of going from excitement to tedium over the long haul.
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Greg Ambrosius
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Re: The Vegas Contract League

Post by Greg Ambrosius » Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:49 pm

KJ Duke wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:56 pm
That said, Coz's stubborn view of THIS league is unfounded. It's a unique concept and rule set that should not be tethered to the 1973 rotisserie chicken ruleset. To accept all the other changes but get hung up on one small element which fits this concept better - already having short time-frame components with urgency built-in - is absurdity.

The other practical consideration for this and the cutline, on top of all the others, is that an early end to this side-contest would allow one to focus on the main event and other high stakes lges in the critical final weeks. This is just a distraction league for junkies. :mrgreen:
With this league paying weekly winners — a BIG part of this format — it makes perfect sense to have a shorter season. I think everyone who has signed up understands that and is ready to draft teams that can dominate each week through the first five months. Makes sense.
Greg Ambrosius
Founder, National Fantasy Baseball Championship
General Manager, Consumer Fantasy Games at SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @GregAmbrosius

COZ
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Re: The Vegas Contract League

Post by COZ » Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:19 am

Greg Ambrosius wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:49 pm
KJ Duke wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:56 pm
That said, Coz's stubborn view of THIS league is unfounded. It's a unique concept and rule set that should not be tethered to the 1973 rotisserie chicken ruleset. To accept all the other changes but get hung up on one small element which fits this concept better - already having short time-frame components with urgency built-in - is absurdity.

The other practical consideration for this and the cutline, on top of all the others, is that an early end to this side-contest would allow one to focus on the main event and other high stakes lges in the critical final weeks. This is just a distraction league for junkies. :mrgreen:
With this league paying weekly winners — a BIG part of this format — it makes perfect sense to have a shorter season. I think everyone who has signed up understands that and is ready to draft teams that can dominate each week through the first five months. Makes sense.
Based on your statements, KJ, your thoughts & rationale on the format are still evolving and I think that is good to help focus on whether your rules really square with the type of format you're looking to create. From your initial post stating you wanted to avoid end-of-year diluted rosters in September to your personal feelings of end-of-year burnout & interference for two sport guys to not wanting to dilute the weekly prizes as well as to looking for a format with more of a sense of urgency similar to the experience of the "Sprint" contest, it is clear to me your thoughts are a still a work in progress. Now setting aside your personal feelings of burnout/being a 2 sport guy & the end-of-year dilution of rosters argument which Doughboys addressed in his comment, I want to focus on the weekly payouts & creating a "Sprint" feel which I think maybe really gets to the heart of what you're trying to accomplish.

When you say you want a sense of "urgency," what I really think you are trying to do without maybe articulating it as such, is to mix a blend of the week-to-week rush & urgency of points-based fantasy football while still maintaining a rotisserie season-long component where a slow start or injuries do not totally eliminate a team. I think that the weekly payouts do provide this sense of "urgency," but to me (& correct me if I'm wrong), what I think you are really looking for is some type of immediate results & immediate gratification of the type only daily fantasy or weekly fantasy football provides. The problem I think is that fantasy baseball does not lend itself well to short sample sizes nor trying to pigeon-hole it into a weekly-or-DFS-fantasy-football-type format. Anyone who has played DFS understands the urgency, immediacy of results & instant gratification experienced. The downside, however, is immediate elimination & disappointment. And to me it all feels artificial, gimmicky & leaving the player with a bad taste like a spin on the roulette wheel. The beauty of season long rotisserie fantasy is not just the delayed sense of gratification & disappointment but also the hope & sense of satisfaction of a late season run after a slow start. By artificially trying to create this urgency or immediacy by shortening the season-long component, I feel you thereby detract from the beauty of regression to the mean that only a 162 game season can provide without really creating that sense of urgency or immediacy that you are trying to accomplish.

The more I really think about this, the genius of your idea is trying to blend that points-based-week-to-week fantasy football type urgency while still maintaining the season-long rotisserie component and combining them into one league. However, in my opinion, eliminating September detracts from the rotisserie season long component without really doing anything to create that sense of urgency you seek & instead feels artificial & gimmicky. I think to best accomplish this sense of urgency you seek, I think it is best to view the weekly component as not just some fun side pot to keep people engaged but rather as a nice weekly carrot to chase but also to view this separately from the season long rotisserie component.

As such, and in order to make the weekly prize meaningful, I would suggest higher entry fees with even more money to the weekly prize where it is a nice chuck of change where that week to week immediacy or urgency is really felt, BUT without shortening the season & thereby detracting from the season long component. Or maybe it is time to re-think the weekly prize & instead make it monthly, or maybe divide the season into 3 separate 2-month "Sprints" (Opening Day - June 1; June 1 to July 31; Post-Trade-Deadline Sprint from Aug.1-End of Season).

As Doughboys said, I too, often find myself agreeing with your take on all things fantasy & find your ideas & concepts fascinating & very well-thought out but I am still a bit taken aback by your stance on eliminating the final month. While I understand the thought process, I strenuously disagree with it. And maybe I am just being stubborn, and in spite of prior tongue-in-cheek comments, I feel it is a really cool concept that is worth exploring and tweaking & one I would like to participate in but I cannot get past the shortened season-long component of this. I hope maybe a vacation and a little time away from fantasy baseball will cause you to maybe rethink & re-tweak this rule. 8-)
COZ

"Baseball has it share of myths, things that blur the line between fact & fiction....Abner Doubleday inventing the game, Babe Ruth's Called Shot, Sid Finch's Fastball, the 2017 Astros...Barry Bonds's 762 HR's" -- Tom Verducci

Teufel Hunden
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Re: The Vegas Contract League

Post by Teufel Hunden » Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:06 am

I know we discussed it in our group text, but would making it $500 instead of $200 move the needle for owners? I am fine either way, but would prefer $500+, and don't see increasing the minimum to $1550 keeping anyone away. That should guarantee a weekly prize of at least $750.

One other thought I had was to introduce a skins concept. For example, the weekly winner has to finish in the top 5 the following week to get paid (except for period 20). Otherwise the weekly prize gets tacked onto following week. This could create some additional excitement.

Either way, good discussion and I will be looking forward to bidding $300 for Bichette at 1/1 :)

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