Live Chat For Wednesday Starts Now

viper · Post by **viper** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:56 am

Well, my take is to keep the league 1st and 2nd place money as is. The crack at $100K was a big factor in many joining this championship but the good league prizes were likely the actual deciding factor. Winning overall is indeed a crapshoot with lots of factors you have no control over being the eventual deciding factors. Winning your league can be done with a good draft and solid FA moves.

Having the lesser prizes under $600 would be nice from a tax standpoint as no 1099 would need to be issued. I think you have to issue them for the free entries however.

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:04 am

All of this is contingent upon the number of participants being 165. If we get to 180 or 195 or even 210, there will be sufficient money to pay out sizeable 2nd and 3rd place money.

I like the idea of keeping the 1st, 2nd and 3rd place league prizes intact. We're all playing to win, but I'd like a chance to win SOMETHING if everything doesn't go as I foresee it this year.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:11 am

Originally posted by Leaderboard Sports:

Change 2nd and 3rd place league finishes to free 2005 entries and take the second and third place league cash and pay $15,000 to second and $10,000 for third. So the event starts off with a ~30K hit for next year (assuming there is a next year) due to 26 or so free entries. I'm not sure what kind of margins you run in your business, but that is setting yourself up for failure.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:15 am

Originally posted by Nevadaman:

Gekko doesn't seem to understand that some changes must occur in order to keep this contest going. A good way of doing that is to help this year's cash flow by giving free teams instead of money to 2nd place league finishers. If we can just get through this year, I think next year will explode. I've presented changes. You might be blinded by your ridiculous thought of having 1000 owners in this event. You clearly don't have any type of business/management skill set. Stick to things you know.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:16 am

King of Queens is right on. We are still shooting to grow the total, but I'm being up-front about the possibilities in case we stay at 11 leagues for the NFBC. If we get up to 195 or 210, we'll be in good shape. Stay positive and help us get there.

I've played a lot of games myself and I'd like the cash for second place. Then I'll decide if I was happy enough in this contest to re-up for 2005. That's just my feeling and I might be wrong, but I'd like the $1,750 in cash after paying $1,250 to compete against the best.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:18 am

Don't worry about next year just yet Gordon. We didn't back out of anything; we're just looking to make this right for 2004 and still making it first-class. We're not going anywhere after the first year. What we really needed was a stronger Chicago showing as we didn't anticipate just 2-3 leagues there. That's been the biggest problem.

viper · Post by **viper** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:21 am

As the current prize structure stands, each league contributes $11,250 to the overall prizes and overhead ($18750-7500). Prizes are currently $125K in cash and $5K in future entries). My guess is that the co-owners fee will cover the $5K future money with a little to spare. We will likely not know the actual overhead to run this. STATS Inc probably isn't free and the ballrooms were not likely donations by the three cities out of the goodness of their hearts. Eleven leagues generate $123,750 towards the published remaining $125,000 in overall prizes. Last time I checked, 123 was less than 125. We definitely need three more league to even get near a break-even point.

viper · Post by **viper** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:25 am

By the way, what is the status of the site?

seefer · Post by **seefer** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:31 am

I for one love the idea of a free team for 2nd place in each league.

In next year's ads, you could write how you gave out FREE entries to the 2005 league. Americans love the word FREE no matter how rich or poor they are. It is what this country was originally based on FREE(dom).

I sincerely believe that you do need to keep the $100K grand prize as a marketing/advertising eye opener for next year and beyond.

I for one am not opposed to cutting the 2nd thru 4th place finishes (overall) in half. This makes the $100 grand more GRAND.

To totally change the subject, can we choose our team names yet? Is the site up and running?

[ March 10, 2004, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: seefer ]

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:36 am

I would suggest reducing payout for overall #2-#4 while adding a free entry next yr ...

#2 overall $10000 +'05

#3 overall $5000 +'05

#4 overall $1250 +'05

Additionally, rather than $750 for lge 3rd place, why not offer a 50% discount for entry next yr.

These 2 changes would save $17k on a cash flow basis with minimal impact, in my opinion, on perceived value of the prize payout. It also locks in or strongly motivates an additional 14 players to return for next season.

[ March 10, 2004, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

Leaderboard Sports · Post by **Leaderboard Sports** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:41 am

Originally posted by Gordon Gekko:

quote:Originally posted by Leaderboard Sports:

Change 2nd and 3rd place league finishes to free 2005 entries and take the second and third place league cash and pay $15,000 to second and $10,000 for third. So the event starts off with a ~30K hit for next year (assuming there is a next year) due to 26 or so free entries. I'm not sure what kind of margins you run in your business, but that is setting yourself up for failure. [/QUOTE]If the event comes off as well as I think it will and with the addition of a fourth city next year (Orlando)

I would be shocked if next year didn't get to 300 and show a profit even with free entries. The third year, once the NFBC has established itself as the event for fantasy baseball I think you will see 400-500. The competition with the WCOFB hurt this year and I think some may have decided to just wait till next year and see whose still standing.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:43 am

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

I would suggest reducing payour for overall #2-#4 while adding a free entry next yr ...

#2 overll $10000 +'05

#3 overall $5000 +'05

#4 overall $1250 +'05

Additionally, rather than $750 for lge 3rd place, why not offer a 50% discount for entry next yr.

These 2 changes would save $17k on a cash flow basis with minimal impact, in my opinion, on perceived value of the prize payout. It also locks in or strongly motivates an additional 14 players to return for next season. Interesting thought.... I'm headed out to dinner. I'll review it when I get back.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:49 am

Originally posted by Leaderboard Sports:

If the event comes off as well as I think it will and with the addition of a fourth city next year (Orlando)

I would be shocked if next year didn't get to 300 and show a profit even with free entries. Assuming 300 teams next year, 26 free entries is over 8% right off the top. If you think you'll make a profit doing that, you're wrong (unless you reduce the prize schedule).

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:51 am

Leaderboard, I value your opinion and you and I have talked many times about 2003 being an establishment year. I have tried to do everything first class and a lot of people have some autographed memorabilia as a result. We are not going to do anything second class at the drafts, either. That's why I'm asking for a little help in Year One and if 2 or 3 people have to win a little less money than expected, I think they now know me well enough to realize that I'll find a way to get them additional publicity, additional goodies or something nice in 2005. We are NOT going away in this category and we are not going to take our lumps this year and lay low for next year. We are going to expand this and reach 300 and beyond, but that's for another budget.

Nobody is hitting the panic button here, just trying to lessen a tough blow if it comes on Sunday. I'm asking for everyone's support if that happens and continued loyalty to the NFBC. If you choose not to, then I'll understand. But we've established something great here and plan on a great 2004 season and even bigger participation in 2005.

nnoy · Post by **nnoy** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:01 am

Speaking of team names (let’s keep the positive rolling since Christmas is only 10 days away). Are there are stipulations on team names? (such as it needs to include part of your last name etc.)

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:03 am

Gekko, using my suggestion, you end up with 18 free or discounted entries, worth $22,500, reduced by $6,825 assuming all 3rd place lge winners enter. If you further assume a 75% payout structure the net cost of these entries would be just $10,050, 2.7 % of revenue, or about $33 per entry assuming 300 entrants next year. Not a big hit to '05 P&L.

[ March 10, 2004, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

Jon_Ashton · Post by **Jon_Ashton** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:07 am

Greg, I really appreciate what you're doing. I hate to imagine the stress on you to make the event succeed. I hope you can keep up the good work. Thanks for making this event possible this year and into the future!

My own personal preference: Keep the overall prize 100% intact at $100,000 and the 1st place league prizes at $5,000. Other than that, chop the "place and show" prizes (overall and league) however necessary. The important thing to me is to have the shot at the big money. If I fall short of that, sure, I'd like a nice big cash prize for second, but, if that's not going to be feasible this year, so be it. If you're rolling in tons of dough next year and get overly stingy with the prize structure, people will be perturbed. But do what you have to this year to get this rolling is how I feel.

Jon

Leaderboard Sports · Post by **Leaderboard Sports** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:15 am

I'm more than happy with everything that has gone down with the NFBC. As you and I talked about when you first started out I thought 300 in the first year was a little ambitious and that 200 would be a big success. Well looks like 200 is in the bag so I think you're right on target. After the lurkers see all the fun they miss out on I think next year will be huge and I'm a pessimist.

Congrats on making it happen Greg. The first time always hurts but next year will be much more pleasurable

viper · Post by **viper** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:28 am

The WCOFB only looks to have 3+ leagues at this point. I wonder how many of their entries are also in the NFBC. This is the WCOFB's 2nd year and they don't seem to have found the winning formula. I'm no marketing expert but they should probably drop baseball but keep their seemingly successful football championship. As they said in the old west ... This town ain't big enough for the both of us.

seefer · Post by **seefer** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:58 am

As much as I love Chicago (I do live here!), I am very upset with my comrads from the midwest and the lack of entries here. Instead of expanding into Orlando next yr. and having 4 cities, I would recommend cutting Chicago. Or if you do intend on doing Chicago next yr., the Sports Collector's Convention will be going on the same time as the draft. It would be fairly inexpensive to see to it that all the walk-ins at the Sports show get a flyer. Heck it doesn't have to be more than a Xeroxed page with $100,000 and the word FREE written all over it! Of course, your contact info. would help.

seefer · Post by **seefer** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:09 pm

Look at the growth rate from last year to this year: 2003 WCOFB had 45 teams. 2004 WCOFB 45 and 2004 NFBC 210 for a total of 255 teams. 45 to 255 is more than 500% growth. Heck if the "suits" at Krause can't see that then they should just stick with doing the sports conventions that fewer and fewer dealers embrace (I used to sell vintage baseball cards at them) as the memorabilia/collector's market is being rapidly dominated by eBay.

But what do I know, I just sell olives for a living (and sell baseball cards online).

[ March 10, 2004, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: seefer ]

Dyv · Post by **Dyv** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:48 pm

Edited... repeated a few message down.

[ March 10, 2004, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: Dyv ]

Top Dawg · Post by **Top Dawg** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:49 pm

OK - I'll throw in my 2 cents. Gordon, or someone else mentioned that the $100K grand prize is the eye catcher, but the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place league payouts is the convincer. I have to agree. The fact that with a smart draft, good health to my players and good free agent pick-ups I can win $5K, make a few bucks for 2nd, or get a little something back for 3rd was what made me sign up.

I played in the WCOFF last year and know the guy who finished 2nd overall. He lead the field from week 2 to nearly the end of August by many points. Then, due to some injuries and bad luck, he fell back to 2nd overall. I doubt a free entry to this years draft and a signed jersey would have made him feel good. Instead, he settled for 2nd overall money; which wasn't bad considering they only had 3 leagues.

My feeling is, there has to be some "decent" amount of money paid to the 2nd place team overall as well as a nice token to the third.

I would be in favor of $10K to 2nd and $5k to 3rd and a signed jersey to 4th. If 2005 cash flow is an issue, then cut back or eliminate the free entries for the next few overall finishers.

In the individual leagues, keep the 1st and 2nd place money as is. If needed, credit the winnings ($750) for 3rd to the 2005 event and don't payout anything now. Consider that a "deposit" on next year. To be fair, let the winner assign it to someone else if they can't make it.

You may still be in the "red" for year one; but this proposal will save $10K in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place overall and $8250 in cash flow this year to league 3rd place finishers. That's over $18 grand towards your P&L's bottom line.

Looks like I offered a bit more than my 2 cents. Sorry for rambling on.

Pete

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:53 pm

Originally posted by Dyv:

If I took 3rd overall and got a check for $1,000 and a free big mac at McDonald's I'd be ticked off.Exactly!

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:54 pm

Originally posted by Top Dawg:

My feeling is, there has to be some "decent" amount of money paid to the 2nd place team overall. Well said Pete!