Carlos Guillen

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:52 am

A new-found respect for Carlos Guillen. Obviously in pain and gimping around, he gets the key hits that kept Detroit in the game last night.

There are a lot of things wrong in Detroit, not him, that was a gutsy performance..

Cowboy Joe · Post by **Cowboy Joe** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 am

Dan,

Maybe you should arrange for Freddy S to have lunch with Carlos. He might learn something.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:43 am

Guillen should run a "Shut up and Play" Camp.

First signups could be Sanchez, Kendrick, the Drew bros, Weeks, Rolen, etc

By the way, great stat I heard last night. The Molina bros all got two hits the other day. The first time since the 60's that three bros. got two hits on the same day. The Alou bros did it 30 times.

Liquidhippo · Post by **Liquidhippo** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:00 am

I will grant you that Carlos had a great game with clutch hits that were key. However, if Guillen were to have stretched properly and thoroughly in the first place he wouldn't get the praise for 'gutting it out'.

Guillen's stick is an asset to the team. But as a total baseball player he is, in my opinion, the most overrated player of all time. Not the worst player, the most overrated. I can't flip on the tube without Joe Morgan or some other announcer glowing with praise for him. I can only assume they haven't watched much Detroit baseball.

By very conservative estimate, he probably blew about 20 games last year alone with his atrocious defensive play. It's painful to watch. At SS he makes Derek Jeter look like Ozzie Smith. He misses countless routine ground balls every year(that somehow get ruled as hits but that's another story unto itself), he misses countless others that he would catch if he simply leaned over further, I'm not asking him to dive, just bend down a little farter and you'll catch it, he simply chooses not to, costing them runs, and ballgames, every single week(or so it seems).

The damage he has done to the entire pitching staff's ERA cannot be overstated. With Guillen on the field, his shoddy D raises pitch counts, causing Tiger starters to leave an inning earlier(which means that their crappy bullpen gets called upon an inning earlier). The pitchers also get visibly upset. Over, and over, and over, gems turn into shellings as they assume that they have to do it all themselves, strike everybody out, etc.

Guillen has no business playing anything other than DH, which, unfortunately, isn't going to happen anytime soon.

[ April 15, 2008, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: Liquidhippo ]

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:16 am

Originally posted by Liquidhippo:

I will grant you that Carlos had a great game with clutch hits that were key. However, if Guillen were to have stretched properly and thoroughly in the first place he wouldn't get the praise for 'gutting it out'.

From your last few posts I can't tell if you are a disgruntled Tiger fan or just plain don't like the Tigers. And I don't know if you were there when Guillen went through his pre-game stretching and you felt it was insufficient. What I do know was that a lot of players wouldn't have taken the field last night, he did, and performed splendidly.

Liquidhippo · Post by **Liquidhippo** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:21 am

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

quote:Originally posted by Liquidhippo:

I will grant you that Carlos had a great game with clutch hits that were key. However, if Guillen were to have stretched properly and thoroughly in the first place he wouldn't get the praise for 'gutting it out'.

From your last few posts I can't tell if you are a disgruntled Tiger fan or just plain don't like the Tigers. And I don't know if you were there when Guillen went through his pre-game stretching and you felt it was insufficient. What I do know was that a lot of players wouldn't have taken the field last night, he did, and performed splendidly. [/QUOTE]Whether I was there or not is irrelevant. As a general rule, if you stretch PROPERLY AND THOROUGHLY, you don't strain or pull muscles. Its that simple. Unless of course:

a) You have some sort of extremely abnormal fragility/muscle deficiency.

b) You take some sort of performance enhancing supplement you shouldn't be taking.

c) You, at one point in time, didn't stretch properly and thoroughly, thus permanently damaging said muscle, leading to a chronic condition in which its easy to reaggravate the injury.

d) Some EXTREME trauma that, while common in football, is rare in baseball. Running to first doesn't qualify.

I'm a fan of whoever is on my fantasy team, but I am a Tigers season ticket holder, I call a spade a spade, and I know that Guillen is quite the slacker. I've seen it to many times to deny it. Sure, he'll hustle here and there, when he feels like it, he also takes a ton of plays off, both running the bases and in the field.

He did perform splendidly yesterday, and overall he's a good hitter.

headhunters · Post by **headhunters** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:31 am

i think you need to revisit that pulled muscle theory. it helps to stretch- but it simply won't prevent all pulled muscles- or olympic sprinters ( who stretch constantly) wouldn't be pulling their muscles. cold weather is a factor also. and gullien isn't at short anymore and the tigers era is about 12.

Liquidhippo · Post by **Liquidhippo** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:46 am

Originally posted by headhunters:

i think you need to revisit that pulled muscle theory. it helps to stretch- but it simply won't prevent all pulled muscles- or olympic sprinters ( who stretch constantly) wouldn't be pulling their muscles. cold weather is a factor also. and gullien isn't at short anymore and the tigers era is about 12. Sorry, its not a theory. There are few things I claim to be an expert in, or be certain about. This is one of them.

Notice I said properly and thoroughly, and not taking Performance Enhancers they shouldn't be taking. I have years experiencing running cross country and long distance races in hot, cold, extreme weather. Also played numerous recreational sports over the years, never pulled/strained a muscle once despite everything imaginable you'd think would induce it, nor did any of the people on my teams, or any of the people I've worked out with over the years who stretched consistently, properly, and thoroughly, not just going through the motions, which is what most do.

Yet, its an interesting myth that persists.

I think we all know that Guillen is at 1B, and he's a large part of the Tigers pitchers having a high ERA this year. Thanks for reinforcing my point.

rkulaski · Post by **rkulaski** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:09 am

Whether I was there or not is irrelevant. As a general rule, if you stretch PROPERLY AND THOROUGHLY, you don't strain or pull muscles. Its that simple. Absolutely not true. It sounds like this "general rule" is only based upon your own experiences. Consider also that Carlos Guillen as well as every other major league player is surrounded by some of the best and brightest medical staffs, athletic trainers, physical therapists, etc. I'm pretty sure Guillen knows and does stretch properly and thoroughly. There's still no guarantee that you won't pull a muscle (totally agree with headhunters). I don't know how old Guillen is but age, body type, etc plays a role as well... Does this "general rule" apply to pitchers as well such as straining a biceps or triceps?

headhunters · Post by **headhunters** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:25 am

dear mr cross country- notice i said sprinters. the best "warm up" is to jog slowly. fast movements pull muscles. also- there isn't universal agreement on how to stretch. we will agree to disagree on the stretching. on the tigers- guillen at 1st is not causing their pitching problems. please- you are way overboard. yes he is an average defender- but not the cause of the pitching problems.

crazytown · Post by **crazytown** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:04 am

Baseball is unique in this way: you stretch prior to the game and may not get action for hours. You then play RF and get no balls hit to you. You strike out 4 times(no running). In the bottom of the 9th you chase a ball in the gap at full speed. Unless you have been stretching in between innings you have cooled off for over 3 hours. Hence, groins, calfs, hamstrings.

Just my thoughts,

Thanks and have a nice day.

Liquidhippo · Post by **Liquidhippo** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:20 am

Originally posted by headhunters:

dear mr cross country- notice i said sprinters. the best "warm up" is to jog slowly. fast movements pull muscles. also- there isn't universal agreement on how to stretch. we will agree to disagree on the stretching. on the tigers- guillen at 1st is not causing their pitching problems. please- you are way overboard. yes he is an average defender- but not the cause of the pitching problems. Yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree. Guillen also disagrees, and he'll and continue to pull/strain muscles. People like me, whether we're playing baseball, basketball, snowboarding, et al, we'll continue to stretch properly and thoroughly and never pull or strain a muscle, not even slightly, not even once. Maybe we're just better athletes than the Olympians?

We'll have to agree to disagree on Guillen as well, as you'd have an easier time convincing me that Neifi Perez is a better hitter than Albert Pujols, than to convince me that Guillen's defense doesn't effect the pitching, drastically.

headhunters · Post by **headhunters** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:24 am

bringing neifi into this was a low blow!

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:58 am

Tiger ticketholder, thought you were in OH ?

Liquidhippo · Post by **Liquidhippo** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:26 am

Originally posted by Hitless:

quote: Whether I was there or not is irrelevant. As a general rule, if you stretch PROPERLY AND THOROUGHLY, you don't strain or pull muscles. Its that simple. Absolutely not true. It sounds like this "general rule" is only based upon your own experiences. Consider also that Carlos Guillen as well as every other major league player is surrounded by some of the best and brightest medical staffs, athletic trainers, physical therapists, etc. I'm pretty sure Guillen knows and does stretch properly and thoroughly. There's still no guarantee that you won't pull a muscle (totally agree with headhunters). I don't know how old Guillen is but age, body type, etc plays a role as well... Does this "general rule" apply to pitchers as well such as straining a biceps or triceps? [/QUOTE]Hi Hitless, yes, its based on my own experiences, which is true of any medical staff, trainer, athlete, etc.(not that I fit in that category, I just know what I'm doing when it comes to this) I stand by it 100% until I see someone stretch thoroughly, properly, and all of the aforementioned, not putting chemicals in your body that weaken certain tissues, or a pre-existing injury(that was brought on by earlier negligence), or some extremely rare medical condition. Been 20+ years, never seen it happen.

First off, you can have the best training staff in the world, if the athletes don't take it seriously, if they just go through the motions, its not going to do them much good. People assume they stretch properly and thoroughly, I believe that's a faulty assumption.

What do they do the first thing in the morning when they wake up? Do they stretch for 30-45 minutes? First thing before they go to bed? Do they stretch for 30-45 minutes? Do they also do the same for 30-45 minutes before each and every game? Do they do the same immediately after every single game?

Now take all of that, and do they do that 24/7/365, w/o exceptions? And do they REALLY stretch in the true sense of the word focusing on expanding their range of motion beyond what they would ever need?

On top of that, when there's down time, watching TV here and there, do they stretch, and I mean REALLY stretch?

Show me and athlete who does all of that, and I'll show you an athlete who doesn't sustain those types of injuries.

As far as pitchers, naw, that's a different animal. I'm focusing mostly on the slackers that pull up lame running the bases. Happens all the time and there's no excuse for it. (again, Rocco Baldelli types with some sort of medical condition are the exception)

Liquidhippo · Post by **Liquidhippo** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:31 am

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

Tiger ticketholder, thought you were in OH ? Yes....both correct....I know, I'm crazy. I go to 20+ games a year and sell the ones I don't go to.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:35 am

Originally posted by Liquidhippo:

quote:Originally posted by KJ Duke:

Tiger ticketholder, thought you were in OH ? Yes....both correct....I know, I'm crazy. I go to 20+ games a year and sell the ones I don't go to. [/QUOTE]Are you stretching during the other 60 games?

Quahogs · Post by **Quahogs** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:36 am

MLB's best stretcher ever ?? Jack Armstrong

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:40 am

Willie McCovey comes close.

rkulaski · Post by **rkulaski** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:59 pm

Originally posted by Liquidhippo:

quote:Originally posted by Hitless:

quote: Whether I was there or not is irrelevant. As a general rule, if you stretch PROPERLY AND THOROUGHLY, you don't strain or pull muscles. Its that simple. Absolutely not true. It sounds like this "general rule" is only based upon your own experiences. Consider also that Carlos Guillen as well as every other major league player is surrounded by some of the best and brightest medical staffs, athletic trainers, physical therapists, etc. I'm pretty sure Guillen knows and does stretch properly and thoroughly. There's still no guarantee that you won't pull a muscle (totally agree with headhunters). I don't know how old Guillen is but age, body type, etc plays a role as well... Does this "general rule" apply to pitchers as well such as straining a biceps or triceps? [/QUOTE]Hi Hitless, yes, its based on my own experiences, which is true of any medical staff, trainer, athlete, etc.(not that I fit in that category, I just know what I'm doing when it comes to this) I stand by it 100% until I see someone stretch thoroughly, properly, and all of the aforementioned, not putting chemicals in your body that weaken certain tissues, or a pre-existing injury(that was brought on by earlier negligence), or some extremely rare medical condition. Been 20+ years, never seen it happen.

First off, you can have the best training staff in the world, if the athletes don't take it seriously, if they just go through the motions, its not going to do them much good. People assume they stretch properly and thoroughly, I believe that's a faulty assumption.

What do they do the first thing in the morning when they wake up? Do they stretch for 30-45 minutes? First thing before they go to bed? Do they stretch for 30-45 minutes? Do they also do the same for 30-45 minutes before each and every game? Do they do the same immediately after every single game?

Now take all of that, and do they do that 24/7/365, w/o exceptions? And do they REALLY stretch in the true sense of the word focusing on expanding their range of motion beyond what they would ever need?

On top of that, when there's down time, watching TV here and there, do they stretch, and I mean REALLY stretch?

Show me and athlete who does all of that, and I'll show you an athlete who doesn't sustain those types of injuries.

As far as pitchers, naw, that's a different animal. I'm focusing mostly on the slackers that pull up lame running the bases. Happens all the time and there's no excuse for it. (again, Rocco Baldelli types with some sort of medical condition are the exception) [/QUOTE]I agree with you only to a certain extent. I am sure there are a lot of athletes who could avoid these strains and sprains if they took their stretching more seriously. But even then, no guarantees. Not sure what Guillen's routine is and I almost benched him this week in my satellite league thinking he'd miss time with his hammy...glad I didn't...he's having a big week so far!

Chest Rockwell · Post by **Chest Rockwell** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:36 am

that is 3 minutes of my life I will never get back

next time I get in to it with someone on these boards I can at least tell myself I have never argued with someone over the internet about who knows more about stretching.........

Liquidhippo · Post by **Liquidhippo** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:25 am

Originally posted by Chest Rockwell:

that is 3 minutes of my life I will never get back

next time I get in to it with someone on these boards I can at least tell myself I have never argued with someone over the internet about who knows more about stretching......... I'm absolutely crushed that our banter did not impress you.....I think I'll go cry now.

Chest Rockwell · Post by **Chest Rockwell** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:42 am

Originally posted by Liquidhippo:

quote:Originally posted by Chest Rockwell:

that is 3 minutes of my life I will never get back

next time I get in to it with someone on these boards I can at least tell myself I have never argued with someone over the internet about who knows more about stretching......... I'm absolutely crushed that our banter did not impress you.....I think I'll go cry now. [/QUOTE]Please stretch properly first if you do not know how refer to earlier posts on this thread.

bjoak · Post by **bjoak** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:31 am

Originally posted by Liquidhippo:

quote:Originally posted by KJ Duke:

Tiger ticketholder, thought you were in OH ? Yes....both correct....I know, I'm crazy. I go to 20+ games a year and sell the ones I don't go to. [/QUOTE]It is amazing you have time to go to any games with all that stretching.

:rolleyes: