My annual selections for induction into the Baseball Hall of Fame- Here's the ballot:
The guys who shouldn't make it in...
Andre Dawson- Nope- borderline call, but falls just behind Rice in line. Discount his Cub numbers- they mean nothing. He was truly a HOF'er during his Montreal days as a CF, but that damn turf destroyed his knees. Juts not great enough long enough for me...
Lee Smith- No. Please. His one claim to fame is a stupid record (saves) which he doesn't even hold anymore...no way.
Jack Morris - No. He was great at times, and a horse and true staff ace. But his numbers just aren't good enough- career numbers fall short, peak numbers not quite there. Definately behind Dlyleven, Tommy John, and a bunch of others. Might be the dividing line- better than Morris and you're in; not and your out. Sort of like Dale Murphy...
Mark McGwire - Nope. Without the steroids he would have about as many HR's as Fred McGriff, who shouldn't be in either. But he was way better than Tony Perez...
Don Mattingly- Nope, and it's too bad about the injured back, or he would be there. But you can say that about a lot of guys...
Dave Parker - Nada- Stupidest player since Denny McLain in throwing away a HOF slot...
Dale Murphy - Nah. Just behind Rice, just ahead of Dawson in line.
Harold Baines- No. Wouldn't even come close as an OF, and his career as a DH wasn't that great...
Steve Avery † - No, but I would be tempted to vote for him since he's from my area, a great guy, and I've met him. Another example of why Leo Mazzone is an idiot- that guy has ruined more young power arms than anyone in history...
Jay Bell †- No- good player, but nowhere near the HOF standard.
Jason Bere †- No- His only qualification is he played badly for parts of 10 years...
Mike Bordick †No- see above comment.
John Burkett †-No- Maybe the bowling hall of fame..
David Cone †- No. Great pitcher, just not great enough long enough...about equal to Bret Saberhagen...
Omar Daal †- No. He is proof that there should be some sort of qualification more than 10 years in the bigs. Like actually being a major leaguer.
Ron Gant †- No- a better player than most think, but still no...
Joe Girardi †- No-only in the overrated Yanklee hero hall of fame...
Mark Grace † - No. A poor man's Keith Hernandez, a rich man's Doug Mientkiewicz...
Mark Guthrie †- No, but at least he was better than Omar Daal...
Joey Hamilton †- No- and the nation collectively yawns...
Bill Haselman † - No- not even in a backup catcher hall of fame...
Darren Holmes † - No- he's not even a HOF Darren...
Trenidad Hubbard †- No, but I wonder if he has a brother named "Tobago"?
Todd Hundley †- No. Not even as good as his dad Randy, who wasn't a HOF'er, either...
Brian L. Hunter †- No. When you need your middle intial included to seperate you from the other Brian Hunter, you know neither of you will be in the Hall...
Félix José †- No way, Jose!
Chad Kreuter †- No- would give Bill Hasselman a run for his money, though...
Graeme Lloyd †- No. The first Australian in the Hall will not be Graeme Lloyd...
Keith Lockhart †- No. June Lockhart of "Lost in Space' fame has a better shot...
Albie Lopez †- No, but he sure served up enough gopher balls to put other guys in...
Pat Mahomes †- No- he made it 10 years?
Al Martin † - No. Boring name, boring player, boring career...
Orlando Merced †- No, but you can never predict any election remotely related to Florida- even if it's just a first name...
Charles Nagy †- No. Pretty good pitcher, though...
Denny Neagle † - No. Had more press than Nagy, but not as much game...
Troy O'Leary † - No. The perennial prospect/suspect, even after 10 years...
Jesse Orosco †-No, but a lot of fun to watch pitch...
Lance Painter †- No. Does make it in the "All Occupational Last Name Hall", though...
Dean Palmer † No. The Doug Decinces of the 90's...
Craig Paquette †No, and no one will ever convince me that he wasn't cloned from Scott Fletcher's jock sweat...
Dan Plesac †-No. Jessie Orosco without the fun...
Tom Prince †- No, but it is a good yearfor occupational names, though...
Jeff Reboulet † No. Wasn't he already listed? Oh, wait- that was Keith Lockhart...
Rick Reed †- No. His greatest achievement is making it into the pension plan...
Rich Rodriguez †- No, and he probably won't get as many votes as university of Michigan's coach of the same name had wins this year. That's gotta hurt...
Terry Shumpert †- No. Always seemed like a good teammate, though...
Luis Sojo †- No. The reason there is a pension plan- at least he can still make a living signing at baseball card shows...
Greg Vaughn †- No. lots of homers, lots of cheeseburgers..
Mo Vaughn † - No. Lots more homers, lots more cheeseburgers...
Dave Veres †- No. And no smart aleck comments about this guy....
Matt Walbeck †- No. the third of the Hasslman-Kruter- Walbeck trioka...
Matt Williams † - No. What is it about big, burly, third basemen and bad backs? Decinces, Palmer, and Williams all could have been in the gray area if their backs had held out...
Mike Williams † - No. which one? there's been thousands! If all the Mike Williamses got one vote, then it might be enough...
Kevin Young †- No. The ultimate fantasy league disappointment...
And who should get in...
Jim Rice (f) - The ultimate borderline guy. Was truly a HOF'er at his best, but it wasn't a real long period of dominance. His career numbers are a bit low for a slugger, and he wasn't a good OF or baserunner. What pushes him over the top for me is his lieftime BA- just under .300 is pretty good for a slugger of his time, so he was more than just a masher. No one worse than Rice should ever make it though...
Bert Blyleven- Yes, and it is silly he isn't in. All the periphrial numbers are there, and he won a boatload of games. Argument against is that he was never the dominant pitcher of his time. Neither was most guys in the HOF. Blyleven was one of the best for a longer time than most. If Blyleven isn't in, then leave out Mussina, Glavine, and any other pitchers of recent years not named Big Unit, Pedro, Maddux, or Clemens...
Tommy John (f) - Yes. Better than Morris, way better than Jim Kaat, better than Phil Niekro as well. Not as good as Blyleven, though...
Tim Raines- Yes. It's not his fault that he was only the second best leadoff guy of his generation- the best was the best ever in Rickey Henderson.
Alan Trammell -Yes. Do Ozzie Smith and Cal Ripkin belong in? Yes, even though their vote totals were ridiculous. Was Trammell better than either? Arguable- but the fact that it is indeed arguable shows how good Trammell was. Side note- Trammell had a better winning percentage in games he played in than either Ozzie or Ripkin. And Trammell was usually the best or second best player on those teams. Think a 1980's version of Derek Jeter. Actually, it breaks down to me like this on Trammell and Ripkin- it all depends on the team you have. If you have a Mark Grace or Keith Hernandez at first, your team needs power, so you want Ripkin. If you have Eddie Muirray or Albert Pujols at first, you need guys on base, and you want Trammell.
Rickey Henderson †- Yes. Should be unanimous, but won't- and any sportswriter not voting for him should have their credentials stripped and then be shot.
Hall of Fame
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Main C3-pick#12 Crawford/Upton/Mags/Guillen/Chipper/Zimmerman/Del Young
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Jesse Homer
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Hall of Fame
Couldn't agree more about Bert Blyleven.Just can't figure that one out.
Hall of Fame
Andre Dawson is the first guy I'd put in.
He epitomized what the game is all about. He had great numbers for the time and place in which he played, and it was the very qualitites that made him such a great player that cut short his time in the league and thus his numbers short.
I'd put him in ahead of Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Clemens and countless others who already are there. This guy was everything you want in a baseball player and teammate.
He epitomized what the game is all about. He had great numbers for the time and place in which he played, and it was the very qualitites that made him such a great player that cut short his time in the league and thus his numbers short.
I'd put him in ahead of Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Clemens and countless others who already are there. This guy was everything you want in a baseball player and teammate.
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Edwards Kings
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Hall of Fame
Originally posted by Sheep:
My annual selections for induction into the Baseball Hall of Fame- Here's the ballot:
The guys who shouldn't make it in...
Jack Morris - No. He was great at times, and a horse and true staff ace. But his numbers just aren't good enough- career numbers fall short, peak numbers not quite there. Definately behind Dlyleven, Tommy John, and a bunch of others. Might be the dividing line- better than Morris and you're in; not and your out. Sort of like Dale Murphy...
Wasn't Morris, if memory serves, the one who won 15 or more games twelve times in fourteen years from 1979 (year of his first full time gig) through 1992 and one of the two years he didn't he win 14? In those same 14 years, didn't he keep his ERA below 4.00 in the AL nine times? And those were not all good years for Detroit. He wasn't exactly a strike-out pitcher, but still manages to K more than 200 three times. Is this the guy who had 175 complete games and 28 shut-outs? Is this the guy who pitched in 13 post-season games and took the loss (a complete game loss) only once versus six wins and a total five complete games?
Yes, he walked a few, and I am not sure what stats you are looking at, but I guess you are a tough grader!
Morris was a winner and deserves the Hall.
BTW, Blyleven does too!
[ December 01, 2008, 06:24 AM: Message edited by: Edwards Kings ]
My annual selections for induction into the Baseball Hall of Fame- Here's the ballot:
The guys who shouldn't make it in...
Jack Morris - No. He was great at times, and a horse and true staff ace. But his numbers just aren't good enough- career numbers fall short, peak numbers not quite there. Definately behind Dlyleven, Tommy John, and a bunch of others. Might be the dividing line- better than Morris and you're in; not and your out. Sort of like Dale Murphy...
Wasn't Morris, if memory serves, the one who won 15 or more games twelve times in fourteen years from 1979 (year of his first full time gig) through 1992 and one of the two years he didn't he win 14? In those same 14 years, didn't he keep his ERA below 4.00 in the AL nine times? And those were not all good years for Detroit. He wasn't exactly a strike-out pitcher, but still manages to K more than 200 three times. Is this the guy who had 175 complete games and 28 shut-outs? Is this the guy who pitched in 13 post-season games and took the loss (a complete game loss) only once versus six wins and a total five complete games?
Yes, he walked a few, and I am not sure what stats you are looking at, but I guess you are a tough grader!
Morris was a winner and deserves the Hall.
BTW, Blyleven does too!
[ December 01, 2008, 06:24 AM: Message edited by: Edwards Kings ]
Baseball is a slow, boring, complex, cerebral game that doesn't lend itself to histrionics. You 'take in' a baseball game, something odd to say about a football or basketball game, with the clock running and the bodies flying.
Charles Krauthammer
Charles Krauthammer
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Edwards Kings
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Hall of Fame
Originally posted by Sheep:
Kevin Young †- No. The ultimate fantasy league disappointment...
Not to hijack the thread, but Kevin Young was involved in a trade that won me a NL-Only 5x5 league. In 1997, I traded Greg Maddux for a player and the rights to McGuire before he came to the NL. My team sucked and I was building for 1998. About mid-season in 1998, I was running away with HR, so I traded McGuire for pitching help, but the guy I ended up trading with was really down on Young (as you could imagine). The pitcher I got back was Maddux but insisted that big bats were worth more than big Pitchers. Got Young as a toss in. As it turns out, McGuire hit more HR, but I still won the category. Young got me like 10 SB which netted me a couple of points and the BA, R, RBI difference didn't cost me any points. Maddux solidified my pitching staff. Best fair trade I ever made.
Kevin Young †- No. The ultimate fantasy league disappointment...
Not to hijack the thread, but Kevin Young was involved in a trade that won me a NL-Only 5x5 league. In 1997, I traded Greg Maddux for a player and the rights to McGuire before he came to the NL. My team sucked and I was building for 1998. About mid-season in 1998, I was running away with HR, so I traded McGuire for pitching help, but the guy I ended up trading with was really down on Young (as you could imagine). The pitcher I got back was Maddux but insisted that big bats were worth more than big Pitchers. Got Young as a toss in. As it turns out, McGuire hit more HR, but I still won the category. Young got me like 10 SB which netted me a couple of points and the BA, R, RBI difference didn't cost me any points. Maddux solidified my pitching staff. Best fair trade I ever made.
Baseball is a slow, boring, complex, cerebral game that doesn't lend itself to histrionics. You 'take in' a baseball game, something odd to say about a football or basketball game, with the clock running and the bodies flying.
Charles Krauthammer
Charles Krauthammer
Hall of Fame
Agree with most of your choices but:
No way Rice gets my vote and Dawson doesn't.
8 GG to 0 for Rice gives Dawson the edge in my book. But I'll vote for Jim as well - but he gives a lot of guys not in or coming up an easier argument.
Tommy John should get in just for the surgery named after him - the fact that the stats are there - great.
Raines - I don't have a problem with him getting in - but he should have to wait awhile. Shouldn't be on stage with Rickey. Also - if you let in Raines - then Kenny Lofton's case gets a lot better. The fact that Lofton was a leadoff man for multiple postseason teams could help as will his easily superior highlight reel defense.
Trammel - I would not vote for Trammel this year. I don't even see how you can put him in the same class with Ripken - it's not even close.
I look at it this way - if I had to choose between Trammel and Ripken (and Ozzie) you take Ripken everytime. I do agree that Ripken and Arod forever changed the way we view SS's and it is unfair to a guy like Trammel and aguy I like more - Concepcion. I have always liked football's HOF selection process more. They always have a stage full of greats and they are less hung up on stats. But baseball has set a numbers standard that Trammel doesn't meet. That said - if he gets in someday then Barry Larkin has to get in as well and probably Omar Vizquel as well.
Two players to compare:
Player A: 2304 Hits 1071 R 1085 RBI 207 HR 318BA
Player B 2153 Hits 1007 R 1099 RBI 222 HR 307BA
Player A: 9 Time AS 6 SS 6 GG 12 seasons
Player B: 6 Time AS 3 SS 9 GG 14(12 really)season
Player A:Two WS championships
Player B: 1 MVP award
Player A: Kirby Puckett
Player B: Don Mattingly
No way Rice gets my vote and Dawson doesn't.
8 GG to 0 for Rice gives Dawson the edge in my book. But I'll vote for Jim as well - but he gives a lot of guys not in or coming up an easier argument.
Tommy John should get in just for the surgery named after him - the fact that the stats are there - great.
Raines - I don't have a problem with him getting in - but he should have to wait awhile. Shouldn't be on stage with Rickey. Also - if you let in Raines - then Kenny Lofton's case gets a lot better. The fact that Lofton was a leadoff man for multiple postseason teams could help as will his easily superior highlight reel defense.
Trammel - I would not vote for Trammel this year. I don't even see how you can put him in the same class with Ripken - it's not even close.
I look at it this way - if I had to choose between Trammel and Ripken (and Ozzie) you take Ripken everytime. I do agree that Ripken and Arod forever changed the way we view SS's and it is unfair to a guy like Trammel and aguy I like more - Concepcion. I have always liked football's HOF selection process more. They always have a stage full of greats and they are less hung up on stats. But baseball has set a numbers standard that Trammel doesn't meet. That said - if he gets in someday then Barry Larkin has to get in as well and probably Omar Vizquel as well.
Two players to compare:
Player A: 2304 Hits 1071 R 1085 RBI 207 HR 318BA
Player B 2153 Hits 1007 R 1099 RBI 222 HR 307BA
Player A: 9 Time AS 6 SS 6 GG 12 seasons
Player B: 6 Time AS 3 SS 9 GG 14(12 really)season
Player A:Two WS championships
Player B: 1 MVP award
Player A: Kirby Puckett
Player B: Don Mattingly
Mastersball
“You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else.” - Albert Einstein
“You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else.” - Albert Einstein
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Edwards Kings
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Hall of Fame
Originally posted by Spartacus:
Very entertaining post EK. Legitimate arguments aside: Tobago Hubbard? Bob, Tobago Hubbard gets in the same time as an equally worthless baseball brother, Ozzie Canseco, gets in! 
Very entertaining post EK. Legitimate arguments aside: Tobago Hubbard?
Bob, Tobago Hubbard gets in the same time as an equally worthless baseball brother, Ozzie Canseco, gets in! Baseball is a slow, boring, complex, cerebral game that doesn't lend itself to histrionics. You 'take in' a baseball game, something odd to say about a football or basketball game, with the clock running and the bodies flying.
Charles Krauthammer
Charles Krauthammer
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Head 2 Head
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Hall of Fame
Originally posted by Edwards Kings:
quote:Originally posted by Sheep:
My annual selections for induction into the Baseball Hall of Fame- Here's the ballot:
The guys who shouldn't make it in...
Jack Morris - No. He was great at times, and a horse and true staff ace. But his numbers just aren't good enough- career numbers fall short, peak numbers not quite there. Definately behind Dlyleven, Tommy John, and a bunch of others. Might be the dividing line- better than Morris and you're in; not and your out. Sort of like Dale Murphy...
Wasn't Morris, if memory serves, the one who won 15 or more games twelve times in fourteen years from 1979 (year of his first full time gig) through 1992 and one of the two years he didn't he win 14? In those same 14 years, didn't he keep his ERA below 4.00 in the AL nine times? And those were not all good years for Detroit. He wasn't exactly a strike-out pitcher, but still manages to K more than 200 three times. Is this the guy who had 175 complete games and 28 shut-outs? Is this the guy who pitched in 13 post-season games and took the loss (a complete game loss) only once versus six wins and a total five complete games?
Yes, he walked a few, and I am not sure what stats you are looking at, but I guess you are a tough grader!
Morris was a winner and deserves the Hall.
BTW, Blyleven does too! [/QUOTE]Guess I have gotten to be a tougher grader. I went back and looked at what I wrote last year (page 21 of general discussion):
"Jack Morris- High era, Blah blah blah...lost too many, blah blah blah. Has good enough career numbers, proven post-season ability, and, if you had to play one game for the safety of the universe between the prime years of Tom Seaver and Randy Johnson, who would you choose to be your starting pitcher? This guy, that's who! For that reason, I Vote- In!"
"So there you have it- 7 deserving HOFer's on the ballot in 2008- Raines, Dawson, Blylevin, Morris, Trammell, Rice, and Gossage. If you want to take the vote to 10, throw in Tommy John, Dale Murphy, and Don Mattingly."
[ December 01, 2008, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: Head 2 Head ]
quote:Originally posted by Sheep:
My annual selections for induction into the Baseball Hall of Fame- Here's the ballot:
The guys who shouldn't make it in...
Jack Morris - No. He was great at times, and a horse and true staff ace. But his numbers just aren't good enough- career numbers fall short, peak numbers not quite there. Definately behind Dlyleven, Tommy John, and a bunch of others. Might be the dividing line- better than Morris and you're in; not and your out. Sort of like Dale Murphy...
Wasn't Morris, if memory serves, the one who won 15 or more games twelve times in fourteen years from 1979 (year of his first full time gig) through 1992 and one of the two years he didn't he win 14? In those same 14 years, didn't he keep his ERA below 4.00 in the AL nine times? And those were not all good years for Detroit. He wasn't exactly a strike-out pitcher, but still manages to K more than 200 three times. Is this the guy who had 175 complete games and 28 shut-outs? Is this the guy who pitched in 13 post-season games and took the loss (a complete game loss) only once versus six wins and a total five complete games?
Yes, he walked a few, and I am not sure what stats you are looking at, but I guess you are a tough grader!
Morris was a winner and deserves the Hall.
BTW, Blyleven does too! [/QUOTE]Guess I have gotten to be a tougher grader. I went back and looked at what I wrote last year (page 21 of general discussion):
"Jack Morris- High era, Blah blah blah...lost too many, blah blah blah. Has good enough career numbers, proven post-season ability, and, if you had to play one game for the safety of the universe between the prime years of Tom Seaver and Randy Johnson, who would you choose to be your starting pitcher? This guy, that's who! For that reason, I Vote- In!"
"So there you have it- 7 deserving HOFer's on the ballot in 2008- Raines, Dawson, Blylevin, Morris, Trammell, Rice, and Gossage. If you want to take the vote to 10, throw in Tommy John, Dale Murphy, and Don Mattingly."
[ December 01, 2008, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: Head 2 Head ]
"However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results." - Winston Churchill
Hall of Fame
Gossage is in. Henderson is a no-brainer. Rice, Dawson, and Blyleven are the only other players with a chance this year.
I tend to favor the Hall being elitists and keeping entrants to the truly deserved. Football is a different animal with career spans of five or six years.
Blyleven is a step up from Morris and John. And anyone that isn't the equal of Blyleven probably won't get in.
300 games won is an automatic ticket to Cooperstown. With Mike Mussina retiring,Randy Johnson is the only one close, he needs five more wins for 300. After him, it is the retirement home of pitchers with over 200 wins:
Moyer-246
Rogers-219
Schilling-216
Pettitte-215
Pedro-214
Smoltz-210
Of those, Smoltz is a Hall of Famer, Pedro and Schilling will get votes, not much of a chance for others. But the question is, after the Unit gets 300, will we see another 300 game winner?
It is forseeable that MLB will go to six man rotations in the future. Specialization of bullpens are taking innings away from starters. Complete games have become sparse.
All active pitchers with 200 wins will be lucky to still be throwing in three years, let alone gunning for 300 in five years. Using the first Mock Draft after the season, as an example, only five pitchers taken in the first 10 rounds have even over 100 wins. Halladay with 131, Oswalt with 129, Lowe with 126,Sabathia with 117, and Santana with 109.
I'm going to try and tune in Johnson's 300th win, he may be the last 300 game winner in baseball history.
[ December 01, 2008, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: DOUGHBOYS ]
I tend to favor the Hall being elitists and keeping entrants to the truly deserved. Football is a different animal with career spans of five or six years.
Blyleven is a step up from Morris and John. And anyone that isn't the equal of Blyleven probably won't get in.
300 games won is an automatic ticket to Cooperstown. With Mike Mussina retiring,Randy Johnson is the only one close, he needs five more wins for 300. After him, it is the retirement home of pitchers with over 200 wins:
Moyer-246
Rogers-219
Schilling-216
Pettitte-215
Pedro-214
Smoltz-210
Of those, Smoltz is a Hall of Famer, Pedro and Schilling will get votes, not much of a chance for others. But the question is, after the Unit gets 300, will we see another 300 game winner?
It is forseeable that MLB will go to six man rotations in the future. Specialization of bullpens are taking innings away from starters. Complete games have become sparse.
All active pitchers with 200 wins will be lucky to still be throwing in three years, let alone gunning for 300 in five years. Using the first Mock Draft after the season, as an example, only five pitchers taken in the first 10 rounds have even over 100 wins. Halladay with 131, Oswalt with 129, Lowe with 126,Sabathia with 117, and Santana with 109.
I'm going to try and tune in Johnson's 300th win, he may be the last 300 game winner in baseball history.
[ December 01, 2008, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: DOUGHBOYS ]
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Hall of Fame
Pedro is a lock.....and the Hall just isnt the hall without Donnie Baseball!!!!
Sometimes I'm good and sometimes I'm bad....but I always try real hard.
Hall of Fame
I think that HOF voting is very very difficult. I am a huge baseball fan and I have difficulty measuring up guys that played within years that I was an avid fan. To then ask to translate a guy's career whose career pre-dated my memory, is just whacky...then it all based upon raw statistics and/or reputation.
FOr example. Dawson's career was entirely within my time. Plus he played within my team's division, so I was aware of him during his prime in Montr. He was always a very good player, but except for that one year later with the CUbs, I do not remember him as being a pinnacle type guy, which is my test. My test is whether a guy was anongst the very top best guys in baseball for a period of time, and if so, how long did the period last for?
I do not remember Dawson being amongst that class. He also seemed to be perennially injured.
I agree that Henderson is a no-brainer. I like Rice, because I think he was a top feared hitter in baseball for 6 or seven years almost like a Manny type figure. He was also putting up silly numbers, before those things became common.
Pitchers are a bit harder to quantify because they are reliant upon their teams. I do not truly remember John or Blyleven in their primes. Their numbers suggest not a ton of dominant years, but I can not really comment on the actuality
Morris, I remember pretty well. He was on a tier just below the elite of his time. I think he could go either way. When you say that, tie should go against the candidate.
Mattingly WAS the summer of 85-and 86. You could not open a sports section or listen to the radio without hearing about his feats. He clearly satisfies the first question but I agree that he should not make it.
Cone to me is actually a tough call. He had a lot of very dominant years, post season, perfect game. I think his time should actually come, but not yet.
Trammell is a classic example. A retrospective look at his #s precludes him. If you take out the juiced ball year of 87, his numbers were just good. But I remember him as being a dominant force in baseball during his career, on a par with Yount. But I have no problem making him wait one or two years.
Lee Smith was a totally dominant reliever for a VERY long time. TO me he was the best in the business or top 2-3 for what seemed like an eternity. Unless you think RP shouldnt be in, he has to be there.
I vote in Henderson(whom I actually do not like), Rice, Lee Smith with the caveat that I cant comment fairly on a few of the candidates.
FOr example. Dawson's career was entirely within my time. Plus he played within my team's division, so I was aware of him during his prime in Montr. He was always a very good player, but except for that one year later with the CUbs, I do not remember him as being a pinnacle type guy, which is my test. My test is whether a guy was anongst the very top best guys in baseball for a period of time, and if so, how long did the period last for?
I do not remember Dawson being amongst that class. He also seemed to be perennially injured.
I agree that Henderson is a no-brainer. I like Rice, because I think he was a top feared hitter in baseball for 6 or seven years almost like a Manny type figure. He was also putting up silly numbers, before those things became common.
Pitchers are a bit harder to quantify because they are reliant upon their teams. I do not truly remember John or Blyleven in their primes. Their numbers suggest not a ton of dominant years, but I can not really comment on the actuality
Morris, I remember pretty well. He was on a tier just below the elite of his time. I think he could go either way. When you say that, tie should go against the candidate.
Mattingly WAS the summer of 85-and 86. You could not open a sports section or listen to the radio without hearing about his feats. He clearly satisfies the first question but I agree that he should not make it.
Cone to me is actually a tough call. He had a lot of very dominant years, post season, perfect game. I think his time should actually come, but not yet.
Trammell is a classic example. A retrospective look at his #s precludes him. If you take out the juiced ball year of 87, his numbers were just good. But I remember him as being a dominant force in baseball during his career, on a par with Yount. But I have no problem making him wait one or two years.
Lee Smith was a totally dominant reliever for a VERY long time. TO me he was the best in the business or top 2-3 for what seemed like an eternity. Unless you think RP shouldnt be in, he has to be there.
I vote in Henderson(whom I actually do not like), Rice, Lee Smith with the caveat that I cant comment fairly on a few of the candidates.
schwanks.blogspot.com
Little Bits mostly non-related to fantasy sports...alright maybe a little
Little Bits mostly non-related to fantasy sports...alright maybe a little
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Edwards Kings
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Hall of Fame
Originally posted by Sheep:
Steve Avery † - No, but I would be tempted to vote for him since he's from my area, a great guy, and I've met him. Another example of why Leo Mazzone is an idiot- that guy has ruined more young power arms than anyone in history... BTW, besides Avery, whom I agree is a good example of the risk taken by putting too much on a young arm, what other power-pitchers do you think that Mazzone "ruined". It is hard to call him an idiot for ruining arms when guys who played such a significant part of their careers, including when they were young (and in some cases in the minors) like Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz are #4, #11, and #66 respectively for all time in games started by pitchers!
Steve Avery † - No, but I would be tempted to vote for him since he's from my area, a great guy, and I've met him. Another example of why Leo Mazzone is an idiot- that guy has ruined more young power arms than anyone in history... BTW, besides Avery, whom I agree is a good example of the risk taken by putting too much on a young arm, what other power-pitchers do you think that Mazzone "ruined". It is hard to call him an idiot for ruining arms when guys who played such a significant part of their careers, including when they were young (and in some cases in the minors) like Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz are #4, #11, and #66 respectively for all time in games started by pitchers!
Baseball is a slow, boring, complex, cerebral game that doesn't lend itself to histrionics. You 'take in' a baseball game, something odd to say about a football or basketball game, with the clock running and the bodies flying.
Charles Krauthammer
Charles Krauthammer
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Head 2 Head
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Hall of Fame
Wayne,
Yup- he's lived off the big three his whole career. But let's take a closer look...
Maddux- already an established star when he went to Mazzone, and no one had to teach him anything. Plus Maddux was never a power arm...
Glavine- Never threw 90 in his life- no power arm to ruin.
Smoltz- Has had all sorts of elbow problems, but he is indestructable.
Now for the power guys...
Steve Avery
Kent Merker
Tommy Greene
Jason Schmidt
David Neid
Pete Smith
Derek Lillequist
kid named Blasingame whose arm exploded in triple A
(just off the top of my head)
All young, hard throwers. All have history of arm and back trouble. Reason?
Dumb ass Mazzone trying to make them use that freakin' slide step when they were still developing. That puts an insane amount of pressure on your arm, shoulder, and back, when you throw hard. There's a reason the Red Sox don't let their guys use that crappy motion...last time I checked, no power pitcher who used the slide step with men on base lasted real long as a flamethrower.
Nolan Ryan never did. Tom Seaver never did. Clemens and Unit use it rarely...
Then Mazzone goes to Baltimore. Eric Bedard goes nuts, and everyone says Mazzone has done it again. The following year Bedard has arm problems again.
Coincidence?
Gary
Yup- he's lived off the big three his whole career. But let's take a closer look...
Maddux- already an established star when he went to Mazzone, and no one had to teach him anything. Plus Maddux was never a power arm...
Glavine- Never threw 90 in his life- no power arm to ruin.
Smoltz- Has had all sorts of elbow problems, but he is indestructable.
Now for the power guys...
Steve Avery
Kent Merker
Tommy Greene
Jason Schmidt
David Neid
Pete Smith
Derek Lillequist
kid named Blasingame whose arm exploded in triple A
(just off the top of my head)
All young, hard throwers. All have history of arm and back trouble. Reason?
Dumb ass Mazzone trying to make them use that freakin' slide step when they were still developing. That puts an insane amount of pressure on your arm, shoulder, and back, when you throw hard. There's a reason the Red Sox don't let their guys use that crappy motion...last time I checked, no power pitcher who used the slide step with men on base lasted real long as a flamethrower.
Nolan Ryan never did. Tom Seaver never did. Clemens and Unit use it rarely...
Then Mazzone goes to Baltimore. Eric Bedard goes nuts, and everyone says Mazzone has done it again. The following year Bedard has arm problems again.
Coincidence?
Gary
"However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results." - Winston Churchill
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Edwards Kings
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Hall of Fame
Gary,
Sorry, but that doesn't hold up to me. For the pitchers you named, outside of Avery, who I think had problems others than those which may have been induced by the "slide", I think you are erroneously blaming Mazzone. Some of the pitchers he worked with will not make the Hall of Fame, but the ones you mentioned like:
David Neid was left unprotected by the Braves (I am guessing for a reason) and was picked up by the expansion Rockies. Nied was never part of the Richmond Braves rotation while Mazzone was pitching coach from 1988 through 1990 when Mazzone came up to Atlanta when Cox was named manager. In 1987, when Neid was drafted, Mazzone was manager in Greenville. Where did or when did Mazzone have a chance to mess up Neid? Dry balls (no pun intended) and Colorado launching pad and pitching coaches messed up Neid, not Mazzone.
Derek Lilliquist a power pitcher? Lilliquist came to the Braves in the 1987 Amateur draft and was gone by July 1990. In 1988, the only year Lilliquist was with Mazzone in Richmond, he threw 80 k's in 171 IP with 36 walks. Hardly killer heat.
Tommy Greene was with Mazzone for 1988, 1989, and 1990 in Richmond. He had good, but not Hall of Fame stuff. Could have been a good major leaguer, but ended up with control problems. Not sure you can blame the slide on his injuries when in 1990 he threw 69 k's in 116 IP with 67 walks. Not sure you can pin this one on Mazzone.
As I recall, Merker and Schmidt went on to have pretty good major league careers, though Merker ended up better suited for the bullpen. I do not see where Schmidt pitched with Mazzone in the minors and started a whopping 13 games for Atlanta in 1995 and 1996. Blaming his arm problems four years later in 2000 on Mazzone is a bit of a stretch (Schmidt averaged 33 starts for Pittsburgh in 1997, 1998, and 1999).
Blasingame I am having trouble locating, but he was never with Mazzone in AAA. I do not think he ever pitched in the majors.
Pete Smith came over to the Braves from the Phillies in 1987. In 1988, while Mazzone was still in AAA, he debued for a full season with the Braves. By 1990, when Mazzone joined the big league club, he was already injured and was not a full time contributor. He was gone from the Braves after 1993 and never pitched more than 100 IP after 1989 for the Braves. How did Mazzone impact him so poorly? Smith's best year was 1988, before Mazzone, and he had 124 K's in 195 IP, again not really a power pitcher.
On the plus side and some of the reason for the Mazzone mistique:
Chris Hammond - Out of baseball for two years before posting an 0.95 ERA in 2002
Jorge Sosa - 2005
Jaret Wright - 2004
John Thomson - 2004
Russ Ortiz - 2003
Atlanta led or was second in the NL in ERA 12 of his last 14 seasons with Atlanta.
Team ERA under 4.00 in 13 of 15 full seasons.
It is just my opinion, but I think Mazzone should be classified as one of the better pitching coaches of all time.
[ December 04, 2008, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Edwards Kings ]
Sorry, but that doesn't hold up to me. For the pitchers you named, outside of Avery, who I think had problems others than those which may have been induced by the "slide", I think you are erroneously blaming Mazzone. Some of the pitchers he worked with will not make the Hall of Fame, but the ones you mentioned like:
David Neid was left unprotected by the Braves (I am guessing for a reason) and was picked up by the expansion Rockies. Nied was never part of the Richmond Braves rotation while Mazzone was pitching coach from 1988 through 1990 when Mazzone came up to Atlanta when Cox was named manager. In 1987, when Neid was drafted, Mazzone was manager in Greenville. Where did or when did Mazzone have a chance to mess up Neid? Dry balls (no pun intended) and Colorado launching pad and pitching coaches messed up Neid, not Mazzone.
Derek Lilliquist a power pitcher? Lilliquist came to the Braves in the 1987 Amateur draft and was gone by July 1990. In 1988, the only year Lilliquist was with Mazzone in Richmond, he threw 80 k's in 171 IP with 36 walks. Hardly killer heat.
Tommy Greene was with Mazzone for 1988, 1989, and 1990 in Richmond. He had good, but not Hall of Fame stuff. Could have been a good major leaguer, but ended up with control problems. Not sure you can blame the slide on his injuries when in 1990 he threw 69 k's in 116 IP with 67 walks. Not sure you can pin this one on Mazzone.
As I recall, Merker and Schmidt went on to have pretty good major league careers, though Merker ended up better suited for the bullpen. I do not see where Schmidt pitched with Mazzone in the minors and started a whopping 13 games for Atlanta in 1995 and 1996. Blaming his arm problems four years later in 2000 on Mazzone is a bit of a stretch (Schmidt averaged 33 starts for Pittsburgh in 1997, 1998, and 1999).
Blasingame I am having trouble locating, but he was never with Mazzone in AAA. I do not think he ever pitched in the majors.
Pete Smith came over to the Braves from the Phillies in 1987. In 1988, while Mazzone was still in AAA, he debued for a full season with the Braves. By 1990, when Mazzone joined the big league club, he was already injured and was not a full time contributor. He was gone from the Braves after 1993 and never pitched more than 100 IP after 1989 for the Braves. How did Mazzone impact him so poorly? Smith's best year was 1988, before Mazzone, and he had 124 K's in 195 IP, again not really a power pitcher.
On the plus side and some of the reason for the Mazzone mistique:
Chris Hammond - Out of baseball for two years before posting an 0.95 ERA in 2002
Jorge Sosa - 2005
Jaret Wright - 2004
John Thomson - 2004
Russ Ortiz - 2003
Atlanta led or was second in the NL in ERA 12 of his last 14 seasons with Atlanta.
Team ERA under 4.00 in 13 of 15 full seasons.
It is just my opinion, but I think Mazzone should be classified as one of the better pitching coaches of all time.
[ December 04, 2008, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Edwards Kings ]
Baseball is a slow, boring, complex, cerebral game that doesn't lend itself to histrionics. You 'take in' a baseball game, something odd to say about a football or basketball game, with the clock running and the bodies flying.
Charles Krauthammer
Charles Krauthammer
Hall of Fame
Why does Dave Parker get so little HOF love?
He received MVP votes in 9 years
He was top 5 in MVP for 5 years
He was MVP once
HE was in ASG 7 times
Career Avg og 290 (which included last 3-4 yrs when he was a shell)
9 times drove in 90 or more
WS win
He obviously wont make it..I just dont know why
He received MVP votes in 9 years
He was top 5 in MVP for 5 years
He was MVP once
HE was in ASG 7 times
Career Avg og 290 (which included last 3-4 yrs when he was a shell)
9 times drove in 90 or more
WS win
He obviously wont make it..I just dont know why
schwanks.blogspot.com
Little Bits mostly non-related to fantasy sports...alright maybe a little
Little Bits mostly non-related to fantasy sports...alright maybe a little
Hall of Fame
Anybody that read every word in the 1st post of this thread deserves to be in the HofF.
And I thought I was F#$%%% up!
Happy Holidays
And I thought I was F#$%%% up!
Happy Holidays
Hall of Fame
Originally posted by Schwks:
Why does Dave Parker get so little HOF love?
He received MVP votes in 9 years
He was top 5 in MVP for 5 years
He was MVP once
HE was in ASG 7 times
Career Avg og 290 (which included last 3-4 yrs when he was a shell)
9 times drove in 90 or more
WS win
He obviously wont make it..I just dont know why To be a smartass I would say which name doesen't belong...Frank Robinson, Carl Yastrzemski, Tony Gwynn, Dave Parker.
To be frank, Parker should have been a dh but was in the wrong league, an atrocious fielder. Although some of his numbers are of Hall of Fame calibre, he was never media-friendly and did not distinguish himself as belonging to the Hall. Mattingly will get more votes than him despite his numbers towering over Donny Baseball.
Bill James came up with a concept on how to compare numbers to Hall of Famers, calling them 'similarity scores'. They are in his book, "The Politics of Glory" or now I'm sure they can be found online.
Why does Dave Parker get so little HOF love?
He received MVP votes in 9 years
He was top 5 in MVP for 5 years
He was MVP once
HE was in ASG 7 times
Career Avg og 290 (which included last 3-4 yrs when he was a shell)
9 times drove in 90 or more
WS win
He obviously wont make it..I just dont know why To be a smartass I would say which name doesen't belong...Frank Robinson, Carl Yastrzemski, Tony Gwynn, Dave Parker.
To be frank, Parker should have been a dh but was in the wrong league, an atrocious fielder. Although some of his numbers are of Hall of Fame calibre, he was never media-friendly and did not distinguish himself as belonging to the Hall. Mattingly will get more votes than him despite his numbers towering over Donny Baseball.
Bill James came up with a concept on how to compare numbers to Hall of Famers, calling them 'similarity scores'. They are in his book, "The Politics of Glory" or now I'm sure they can be found online.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
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headhunters
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Hall of Fame
if dave parker had played for the yankees- he would be in. as i recall there was a "teddy ballgame" but a " donny ballgame" - only in ny.
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headhunters
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Hall of Fame
btw- if you look at pedros #'s- you get sandy koufax. koufax is for sure a hall of famer and pedro is also. harder park, waaaay more hitting. a lock.
Hall of Fame
Kind of tough to compare Koufax with anybody since his career was cut short at 31 and he left winning 26 and 27 games his last two years.
Maybe a comparison with Marichal would be better.
Marichal made the Hall on his third or fourth try.
By the way, I know it's a "My dad is bigger than your dad" type statement, but, you take Pedro in his prime, I'll take Koufax in his and I'll take my chances with those light-hitting Dodger teams.
Maybe a comparison with Marichal would be better.
Marichal made the Hall on his third or fourth try.
By the way, I know it's a "My dad is bigger than your dad" type statement, but, you take Pedro in his prime, I'll take Koufax in his and I'll take my chances with those light-hitting Dodger teams.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
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Head 2 Head
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Hall of Fame
The pre-1943 part of the Veterans Committee selected former Yankees 2B Joe Gordon for the Hall of Fame- about time! Gordon should have been in years ago. As a hitter, he is the best of Jeff Kent, and as a fielder he was in the Roberto Alomar mode. Gordon was better than Bobby Grich (and you have to be better than Grich to be worthy of discussion), better than Lou Whitaker (who should be in, but is at least the line between in or out), better than Bobby Doerr (who is in, but was the second best 2B in AL behind Gordon), and way better than Ryan Sandberg (who sailed in on the first ballot). Good to see at least part of the HOF make the right call...
"However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results." - Winston Churchill
Hall of Fame
Right you are!
Lost a couple of prime years to WW II - then came back and after one more season as a Yankee - helped lead Cleveland to their second, and last, World Series Title in 1948.
Lost a couple of prime years to WW II - then came back and after one more season as a Yankee - helped lead Cleveland to their second, and last, World Series Title in 1948.
Mastersball
“You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else.” - Albert Einstein
“You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else.” - Albert Einstein
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BaseBrawler
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Hall of Fame
I like to give alittle love to Jim Rice. I believe he is a hall of famers.
He is very comparible to HOFs Billy Williams, Orlando Cepeda, and Duke Snider. The difference is Rice won an MVP. I would put Willie Stargell on the list but he hit 475 hrs.. 100 more then Rice. Plus Rice was a Feared Hitter and played in an era were 500 hrs was hard to do.
I'd also like to state that if Carlton fisk and gary carter are in the hall of fame why cant thurmon Munson? I know people will disagree with me here , Carter and fisk have inflated stats for playing so long. muson only played 10 1/2 years. I know he wasnt comparable a homerun hitter, but But he is a former MVP fisk and carter are not.
Gold Gloves Munson 3 carter 3 fisk 1
mvps Muson 1 carter 0 fisk 0
Post Sea Ave Muson 357 carter 280 fisk 259
If muson played 15 plus season he would be a HOF with better stats.
But I guess you can make the same push for lance parrish lol?
Thats why we debate these things....
[ December 26, 2008, 06:11 AM: Message edited by: TheFoot ]
He is very comparible to HOFs Billy Williams, Orlando Cepeda, and Duke Snider. The difference is Rice won an MVP. I would put Willie Stargell on the list but he hit 475 hrs.. 100 more then Rice. Plus Rice was a Feared Hitter and played in an era were 500 hrs was hard to do.
I'd also like to state that if Carlton fisk and gary carter are in the hall of fame why cant thurmon Munson? I know people will disagree with me here , Carter and fisk have inflated stats for playing so long. muson only played 10 1/2 years. I know he wasnt comparable a homerun hitter, but But he is a former MVP fisk and carter are not.
Gold Gloves Munson 3 carter 3 fisk 1
mvps Muson 1 carter 0 fisk 0
Post Sea Ave Muson 357 carter 280 fisk 259
If muson played 15 plus season he would be a HOF with better stats.
But I guess you can make the same push for lance parrish lol?
Thats why we debate these things....
[ December 26, 2008, 06:11 AM: Message edited by: TheFoot ]
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