Teixeira, Boras, and the Press

Joe Sambito · Post by **Joe Sambito** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:59 am

Yanks land Teix!

Time to take my Mike Lowell jersey off ebay...

Quahogs · Post by **Quahogs** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:27 am

Originally posted by Joe Sambito:

Yanks land Teix!

Time to take my Mike Lowell jersey off ebay... what the heck bosox ?? geez crack open the wallet you cheapos... he would have been a great add for my pedroia and youk keeper team

kgrady · Post by **kgrady** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:52 am

Now that the Yankees have shelled out another $180 million to land Mark Teixeira, I look so very forward to seeing Hank and Hal Steinbrenner with their hands fully extended waiting for the New York taxpayers to fork over another $300+ million to pay for their new stadium. Real class acts. The apple sure doesn't fall far from the tree in that family.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:23 am

I would be in favor of 15-year contracts. Bear with me, contracts have steadily lengthened over the past several years. This year the magic number (the Yanks magic number?) seems to be eight years. It'll be 10 soon enough.

Lets quit messing around and give 15 year contracts. If the Giants like Lincecum, don't skimp and give him a contract to cover a couple of free agent years. Lets make him a Giant forever.

Same with the Rays and Longoria, the Mets and Wright, the Indians and Sizemore. Fans of respective teams will be able to count on the franchise player not leaving.

Heck, these guys will be paid more in a few years with a shorter contract anyway, sign 'em to 15 years. Let the fans know that the franchise player is staying home.

May as well start now, its looking like a trend that will be here soon.

[ December 23, 2008, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: DOUGHBOYS ]

751542 · Post by **751542** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:30 am

i use to respect the yankees...now i detest them..i know they are playing within the parameters of the rules but CMON MAN!!!! take a note from tampa bay, defending al champs, u dont need to buy championships you build from within....i will truley enjoy rooting against them all season!!! i guess the next signing will be manny for another 75 million to eclipse the 500 million mark this offseason in a depressed economy....putrid!!! may all the has beens wearing pinstripes arms blow up!!!! and riddle your orginization for the next 10 years!!! may the fleas of 1000 camels...u know how the saying goes....aaaarrrggghhhh

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:35 am

Originally posted by RoundTrippers:

i use to respect the yankees...now i detest them..i know they are playing within the parameters of the rules but CMON MAN!!!! take a note from tampa bay, defending al champs, u dont need to buy championships you build from within....i will truley enjoy rooting against them all season!!! i guess the next signing will be manny for another 75 million to eclipse the 500 million mark this offseason in a depressed economy....putrid!!! may all the has beens wearing pinstripes arms blow up!!!! and riddle your orginization for the next 10 years!!! may the fleas of 1000 camels...u know how the saying goes....aaaarrrggghhhh Have faith, RT, they are the Fed....er ... Yankees.

It'll be fun to see how their management messes up.

ALL-IN JD · Post by **ALL-IN JD** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:40 am

Sour grapes for Yankee Bashers. They subtracted 88-89 million dollars off of their payroll and added 60 back. They will start the year UNDER 200 million, and less than last year.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:48 am

No sour grapes here. I just wonder at how the Yankees put themselves in this money trap time after time.

In a few years Sabathia will be broke and a drag on the payroll. Burnett may be broke now, I don't know. I don't have a problem with the Yankees spending money. Its HOW they spend the money that bothers me. Tethering themselves to obscenely long contracts has not worked very well in the past and with Sabathia and Burnett's signings, I don't think it'll work now either.

Teixeira is a good signing. Granted. But the front office has to take a breath and look at the small things (to them) like their bullpen, their OF defense, and who will catch once Posada breaks.

I'm not a Yankee basher, as much as a Yankee management basher.

[ December 23, 2008, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: DOUGHBOYS ]

ALL-IN JD · Post by **ALL-IN JD** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:51 am

Im also pretty sure you are not a Yankee fan!

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:57 am

Originally posted by fireballs:

Im also pretty sure you are not a Yankee fan!

Put ARod and Jeter on my NFBC team and voila! One more Yankee fan.

Really, I have no allegiance to any team.

In their own way, I put yankee management on par with Pirate management. Its just that the Pirates are more like my drunk Aunt Lucy. You would not want to see her with a lot of money.

Spartacus · Post by **Spartacus** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:13 pm

I grew up a yankee fan, bled pinstripes to be sure. I cried for days when Mazeroski hit that 3 run homer off Ralph Terry and to this day I swear that the hardest ball I ever seen hit was by Willie McCovey with runners on second and third and two outs in the seventh game of the '62 World Series. The only thing that prevented me from swallowing my Adam's Apple was that Bobby Richardson caught it. I haven't thought much about those days recently, although I have to admit that last year as I watched Josh Hamilton I couldn't help but be reminded of Mantle launching balls into the right center bleachers. But that's another story.

By 1990 I had enough though. It wasn't about the winning or losing, it was simply that the Yankee's under Steinbrenner had become a tawdry circus. The Brian Doyle, Elliot Maddux, Dave Winfield saga's among others had finally taken their toll on me. Not only was I walking away from the Yankee's I was walking away from baseball itself. I was truly done but for a chance invitation by a friend to join something called a fantasy baseball league? (Bless his heart).

As I watch the next generation of Steinbrenners continue in their father's footsteps I wonder how the hell can anybody root for these guys without holding their nose's? After watching them spend a gaudy almost half billion dollars on just 3 players (and RT I agree: very tacky particularly in this economic climate) it's for all intents and purposes like rooting for 'Scut Farkas' to beat up little 'Ralphie Parker' on his way home from school! Red Sox fans may laugh, but the Sox are not much better than Scut's toady friend Grover Dill. May the Bumpus dogs run through both of their kitchens! (Then head over to one of Scott Boras's houses for dessert!)

Now that I've gotten that off of my chest, may all of you have wonderful Christmas stories of your own, more Hanukkah miracle's, and of course a happy "Festivus" to the rest-of-us.

Red Sox Nation · Post by **Red Sox Nation** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:54 pm

I think the Red Sox get lumped together with Yankees too much when it comes to payroll. The Red Sox certainly have large resources but the Yankees are in a league by themselves. Since 2003 Boston has been outspent by NYY by 390 million.

2008

Yankees 209 million

Red Sox 133 million

2007

Yankees 189 million

Red Sox 143 million

2006

Yankees 194 million

Red Sox 120 million

2005

Yankees 208 million

Red Sox 123 million

2004

Yankees 184 million

Red Sox 127 million

2003

Yankees 152 million

Red Sox 100 million

It's not the first time the Red Sox were outbid by NYY and it won't be the last. I just hope this one turns out as well as Contreras, Pavano, and Damon.

PS I'm not crying poor here. Just making a point that Boston is the second tier when it comes to spending. NYY is all alone. AL East should be a dogfight!

[ December 23, 2008, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: Red Sox Nation ]

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:24 pm

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

who will catch once Posada breaks.

Kevin Cash is not the answer.

crazytown · Post by **crazytown** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:59 am

"Tethering themselves to obscenely long contracts has not worked very well in the past"

Just curious, isn't 13 out of 14 straight years being in the playoffs and 4 world series titles acceptable?

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:31 am

Originally posted by crazytown.gov:

"Tethering themselves to obscenely long contracts has not worked very well in the past"

Just curious, isn't 13 out of 14 straight years being in the playoffs and 4 world series titles acceptable? No.

When you have the monetary advantage that the Yankees have. No.

The Braves had a similar playoff run without the monetary advantage. If you had three first round picks in a fantasy baseball draft, while everybody else got one, and just got your money back, would you be satisfied? In business parlance the Yankees should be crushing competition like WalMart kills KMart. They are Potter, and the George Bailey's of the league are making fun of them.

It is lucky that they use their money advantage to hamstring themselves to a lot of long, bad contracts, otherwise baseball would not be near as interesting. They shop for free agents like Jim Carrey in "Yes Man". And trust me, the #1 Yankee fan is Scott Boras.

All that said, the Teixeira signing was a good sign. There is every chance that Teixeira will be helping them in eight years, although, not worth the money he will be receiving then.

Ownerships of most teams, especially the Yankees, think too much about the present and the first few years of the contract. They should think in reverse and wonder if Sabathia, Burnett, and Teixeira are going to be worth that money during the last year of the contract.

Even with the luxury tax, Yankee spending has increased and they didn't even make the playoffs last year and haven't won a Championship since 2003. So again, to answer the question, no.

[ December 31, 2008, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: DOUGHBOYS ]

Red Sox Nation · Post by **Red Sox Nation** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:45 am

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

quote:Originally posted by crazytown.gov:

"Tethering themselves to obscenely long contracts has not worked very well in the past"

Just curious, isn't 13 out of 14 straight years being in the playoffs and 4 world series titles acceptable? No.

When you have the monetary advantage that the Yankees have. No.

The Braves had a similar playoff run without the monetary advantage. If you had three first round picks in a fantasy baseball draft, while everybody else got one, and just got your money back, would you be satisfied? In business parlance the Yankees should be crushing competition like WalMart over KMart, instead, when the season starts, they are just another team. Heck, I had a lot more respect for them in the 60's and before when free agency didn't exist.

It is lucky that they use their money advantage to hamstring themselves to a lot of long,bad contracts otherwise baseball would not be near as interesting. They shop for free agents like Jim Carrey in "Yes Man". And trust me, the #1 Yankee fan is Scott Boras.

All that said, the Teixeira signing was a good sign. There is every chance that Teixeira will be helping them in eight years, although, not worth the money he will be receiving then.

Ownerships of most teams, especially the Yankees, think too much about the present and the first few years of the contract. They should think in reverse and wonder if Sabathia, Burnett, and Teixeira are going to be worth that money during the last year of the contract.

Even with the luxory tax, Yankee spending has increased and they didn't even make the playoffs last year and haven't won a Championship since 2003. So again, to answer the question, no. [/QUOTE]Just a minor correction (but important in my neck of the woods) They haven't won since 2000.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:40 am

Originally posted by Red Sox Nation:

quote:Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

quote:Originally posted by crazytown.gov:

"Tethering themselves to obscenely long contracts has not worked very well in the past"

Just curious, isn't 13 out of 14 straight years being in the playoffs and 4 world series titles acceptable? No.

When you have the monetary advantage that the Yankees have. No.

The Braves had a similar playoff run without the monetary advantage. If you had three first round picks in a fantasy baseball draft, while everybody else got one, and just got your money back, would you be satisfied? In business parlance the Yankees should be crushing competition like WalMart over KMart, instead, when the season starts, they are just another team. Heck, I had a lot more respect for them in the 60's and before when free agency didn't exist.

It is lucky that they use their money advantage to hamstring themselves to a lot of long,bad contracts otherwise baseball would not be near as interesting. They shop for free agents like Jim Carrey in "Yes Man". And trust me, the #1 Yankee fan is Scott Boras.

All that said, the Teixeira signing was a good sign. There is every chance that Teixeira will be helping them in eight years, although, not worth the money he will be receiving then.

Ownerships of most teams, especially the Yankees, think too much about the present and the first few years of the contract. They should think in reverse and wonder if Sabathia, Burnett, and Teixeira are going to be worth that money during the last year of the contract.

Even with the luxory tax, Yankee spending has increased and they didn't even make the playoffs last year and haven't won a Championship since 2003. So again, to answer the question, no. [/QUOTE]Just a minor correction (but important in my neck of the woods) They haven't won since 2000. [/QUOTE]My bad.

Schwks · Post by **Schwks** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:26 am

GREAT posting Sparticus!!! I think the fan of a team creates a rationalization in his head for each exhorbitant signing. The question becomes how far can you take the rationalization. My rough calculations have it that the Yanks better win with this lineup or be prepared to go into the 300 mill per yr range.

Navel Lint · Post by **Navel Lint** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:53 am

Originally posted by Schwks:

GREAT posting Sparticus!!! I think the fan of a team creates a rationalization in his head for each exhorbitant signing. The question becomes how far can you take the rationalization. My rough calculations have it that the Yanks better win with this lineup or be prepared to go into the 300 mill per yr range. I’m not sure what your ‘rough calculations’ are, but the very thought that you can fix winning by spending more is number one in the list of problems why the Yankees’ salary has gotten this high.

Of course, “problem” is a relative term. They earn the most and spend the most. I would love to see a spend-to-earn ratio for all the teams in the league, but that would require them to open the books. That’s not going to happen.

bjoak · Post by **bjoak** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:33 am

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

quote:Originally posted by bjoak:

quote:Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

For real baseball, I have a hard time buying into the 200 is better than 70 argument. We can use Smoltz as an example. He shined at both starting and closing. Atlanta used him at their greater need and it was beneficial to them both ways.

I think with their recent signings that the Yankees have more of a need setting up Rivera than using Joba as a fifth starter over Hughes or another signing. The difference at fifth starter will not be as great as Joba setting up Rivera.

Although flush with money, the Yankees do not make very good personnel decisions. With that said,I believe that Joba will start the season as the fifth starter, I also believe he will end up in the pen.

Fantasy-wise, Joba won't have Joba setting up after a start. Lessening his fantasy value a bit.

Besides, beyond your 200-70 ip theory, Joba can effect the outcome of 70 games as a reliever, only 30 as a starter. Well, outcomes of games but you're still just talking outcomes of innings within those games. You know, in a sense I could see how that bullpen could be a disaster and in that sense he has more value in the pen, but that is just bad management. You can get a good non-closing reliever on the cheap (say Juan Cruz) and then use Joba in the rotation. By way of example, they could have gotten Cruz way, way cheaper than Burnett and then used Joba in the rotation. I guess some people might want the marquee names, but I think at the end of the season there is not a whole lot of difference between AJ SP, Joba RP and Joba SP, Cruz RP other than the extra 40 million or more they'd have spent on the former. Again, it ends up being a misutilization of resources. If nothing else, he has more monetary value in the rotation. [/QUOTE]The Yankees are the kings of misutilizing resources, its their way of keeping things even in baseball.

In real baseball, the goal is to make it to the playoffs and then have the best team over a shorter period of time.

Wouldn't the rotation of

1. Sabathia

2. Wang

3. Burnett

4. Pettitte

With Joba and Rivera in the pen, give them the best chance at a Championship? [/QUOTE]Okay, how about Sabathia, Wang, Burnett, Joba, and Cruz, Rivera in the pen. Far better and probably costs the same. Any way you dice it, he has more value in the rotation. Maybe money makes no difference to the Yankees, but I have no other way to express 'more value'. You can express every which way that Joba is worth more as a starter by looking at the way they might fill in their team around him.

bjoak · Post by **bjoak** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:36 am

Originally posted by Quahogs:

quote:Originally posted by Joe Sambito:

Yanks land Teix!

Time to take my Mike Lowell jersey off ebay... what the heck bosox ?? geez crack open the wallet you cheapos... he would have been a great add for my pedroia and youk keeper team

[/QUOTE]You can see how he has more value to a team with no first baseman vs. a team with a good one. You look at economic realities, you can almost predict what will happen.

bjoak · Post by **bjoak** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:46 am

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

I would be in favor of 15-year contracts. Bear with me, contracts have steadily lengthened over the past several years. This year the magic number (the Yanks magic number?) seems to be eight years. It'll be 10 soon enough.

Lets quit messing around and give 15 year contracts. If the Giants like Lincecum, don't skimp and give him a contract to cover a couple of free agent years. Lets make him a Giant forever.

Same with the Rays and Longoria, the Mets and Wright, the Indians and Sizemore. Fans of respective teams will be able to count on the franchise player not leaving.

Heck, these guys will be paid more in a few years with a shorter contract anyway, sign 'em to 15 years. Let the fans know that the franchise player is staying home.

May as well start now, its looking like a trend that will be here soon. I guess if I was an old fashioned fan who was more of a fan of the parts rather than the sum and didn't worry about losing seasons I'd like that. Me, I'm a fan of the front office and the team that they put on the field each year, whoever is on it. If my team gave 15 years to Lincecum, I'd find a new team that was trying to win. How many pitchers last 15 years? 1 in 200? 300?

Teams would love to get shorter contracts. The only reason the Yankees are willing to pay Tiexera for years 5-8 is so that they can have years 1-4. Any contract is just the same. You can see it all the more when players have the Drew/Burnett 'out' clause. The only thing the team is paying for the final years of the contract is insurance to the player should he fall apart.

[ December 24, 2008, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: bjoak ]

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:01 am

Originally posted by bjoak:

quote:Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

quote:Originally posted by bjoak:

quote:Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

For real baseball, I have a hard time buying into the 200 is better than 70 argument. We can use Smoltz as an example. He shined at both starting and closing. Atlanta used him at their greater need and it was beneficial to them both ways.

I think with their recent signings that the Yankees have more of a need setting up Rivera than using Joba as a fifth starter over Hughes or another signing. The difference at fifth starter will not be as great as Joba setting up Rivera.

Although flush with money, the Yankees do not make very good personnel decisions. With that said,I believe that Joba will start the season as the fifth starter, I also believe he will end up in the pen.

Fantasy-wise, Joba won't have Joba setting up after a start. Lessening his fantasy value a bit.

Besides, beyond your 200-70 ip theory, Joba can effect the outcome of 70 games as a reliever, only 30 as a starter. Well, outcomes of games but you're still just talking outcomes of innings within those games. You know, in a sense I could see how that bullpen could be a disaster and in that sense he has more value in the pen, but that is just bad management. You can get a good non-closing reliever on the cheap (say Juan Cruz) and then use Joba in the rotation. By way of example, they could have gotten Cruz way, way cheaper than Burnett and then used Joba in the rotation. I guess some people might want the marquee names, but I think at the end of the season there is not a whole lot of difference between AJ SP, Joba RP and Joba SP, Cruz RP other than the extra 40 million or more they'd have spent on the former. Again, it ends up being a misutilization of resources. If nothing else, he has more monetary value in the rotation. [/QUOTE]The Yankees are the kings of misutilizing resources, its their way of keeping things even in baseball.

In real baseball, the goal is to make it to the playoffs and then have the best team over a shorter period of time.

Wouldn't the rotation of

1. Sabathia

2. Wang

3. Burnett

4. Pettitte

With Joba and Rivera in the pen, give them the best chance at a Championship? [/QUOTE]Okay, how about Sabathia, Wang, Burnett, Joba, and Cruz, Rivera in the pen. Far better and probably costs the same. Any way you dice it, he has more value in the rotation. Maybe money makes no difference to the Yankees, but I have no other way to express 'more value'. You can express every which way that Joba is worth more as a starter by looking at the way they might fill in their team around him. [/QUOTE]You only did this so you can see me rail against Yankee management again, didn't you.

Funny, but with the signing of Teixeira, it makes it even more imperative that the Yankees put Joba in the pen. We'll go back to your 200-70 theory. The Yankees will now score more runs with Teixeira than they would without him. I think everybody would agree with that. This means that Yankee starters will be able to give up more runs and still win games. How many 8-2 games will Joba pitch if he starts? I'm guessing more than a few, if he remains healthy starting. Now, lets put another signee or Hughes there, they can have their 4.50 era, they're still going to win games. They don't need Joba for 200 innings, they need an innings eater.

Think of it in fantasy terms. You draft Ellsbury, Figgins, and Pierre. You're most likely getting a 15 in sb's. But hurting yourself in the other categories. Take away Ellsbury and put in Dunn, you're still challenging for a 15 in sb's while enhancing the power stats, albeit lowering the avg.

The Yankees like overkill though, and they will get a lot of those 8-2 games. I would like to put a difference maker (Joba) in a difference making setting (a close game).

The argument is mute, the Yankees will put him in the rotation. They are not bright enough to sign Cruz. And guys like Joe Morgan and Tim McCarver will be left wondering why the Yankees can't win close games.

[ December 24, 2008, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: DOUGHBOYS ]

Schwks · Post by **Schwks** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:15 am

Joe Morgan thinks? It certainly doesnt come through in his broadcasts

Schwks · Post by **Schwks** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:20 am

BTW I agree that Joba should be in the pen and I still think that their is a moderate(30% chance that is wher he will end up this yr. It is one thing to have a good set up guy. It is quite another when you are locking down games by the 7th inning...which means you have a weapon. Joba is good as a sp but he is a weapon in relief.

Incidentally, I think that Joba is being picked too high. Most SP come with 2 risks: injury and ineffectiveness. Joba comes with 3: injury(very real), ineffectiveness AND that he goes to pen either to start or at some point during season as you are competing for 100 large.