What CAN 2nd and 3rd Prize Be?

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:48 pm

I just posted this thread somewhere else, but I thought I would create it's own thread now. Read below and give me some answers.

Okay, guys, I can't stay late tonight and I apologize but I've neglected some little buggers at home WAY too much. I promise a live chat tomorrow at 3 p.m. EST. Here's my take from today, which has been just an unbelievable roller coaster for me. But I'll lay it out for you anyway.

First of all, you guys are the most dedicated players in the industry. The universe of dedicated fantasy baseball players who can play at this level for this price with interest for 26 weeks 24/7 is limited. I knew that going in and I'm happy with the group I have. Had we reached a modest goal in Chicago, we wouldn't be having this discussion, but **** happens.

So now I need to be a big boy and make things a little more right. If I had one consensus from everyone on what to do to save $25,000, I'd do it. That's what I'm trying to do, to lessen the blow without losing any of our dedicated players. Guys have been calling me saying they need at least $8,000 for second overall, others say $5,000 overall, others say $10,000 overall and at least $5,000 for third. I feel like 4th place overall is barely a consideration of a new price structure because a free team and a $1,000 memorabilia item gets you to around $2,500 anyway.

So do I risk trying to lose members over a $15,000 second place overall prize and a $7,500 third place overall prize? Would guys really bolt over that? Possibly. Even though their odds of winning $100,000 just improved from 1:300 to 1:165? Could be.

We haven't made any decisions yet and I'm still getting calls to sign up (everyone has 8 questions for me before signing up over the phone) and seriously nobody has THE answer. So somebody tell me what second place overall HAS to be and what third place overall HAS to be at a minimum to keep the NFBC just as good as it was $25,000 ago. Then I'll come up with a new prize structure ($750 to $500 for third place overall saves $2,750) and we'll crunch the numbers here.

We are willing to give free entries to the NFBC in 2005 or the NFFC in 2004, but nobody wants to hear that now. They want to know what second place overall needs to be, while keeping the $100,000 grand prize intact. That's what I'm hearing. So tell me what second place overall and third place overall HAVE to be and after I'm done tucking in some cuties, I'll check the thread and dive in.

I'm lucky to be working for such a good company that is supporting my grandiose idea for this. I want to keep everyone happy and live for another day and then write the book on this in 2020. Help me do that with a consensus opinion that will allow us to keep all of the current members happy and still in the 2004 competition. I'm asking for your advice.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:56 pm

Wow, just before going home I went to my e-mail and found three more signups for the NFBC were entered online. Now that's the type of answer that would solve everything. Let's keep the late signups coming!!!

I'll introduce everyone when I get back. Man, there's a fellow Cheesehead from my backyard in Appleton, WI, flying to Las Vegas to draft in the NFBC. No wonder Chicago is lagging!!!

la Jolla · Post by **la Jolla** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:30 pm

greg, just read the news and have to say that gekko, top dawg and dyv are dead on. there is no way the overall prize payouts can go from 100k for 1st to what is being proposed for 2nd and 3rd overall. i understand that 100k for winning drew most of us to the contest, but lets be realistic, whoever is good/lucky enough to win 1st overall won't be kicking and screaming that he won 90k instead of 100k, but the guys that come in 2nd and 3rd overall will be furious if all they get is some memorabilia and a free entry next year. that is way too steep a difference.

Hoosier Hick · Post by **Hoosier Hick** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:50 pm

My feelings are that overall 2nd and 3rd place should be rewarded with cash prizes. Even if it was 5,000 and 3,000 plus entry to NFBC and NFFC next year.(free entries would add 2500). This would save over 15,000 dollars plus cut the third place league prize to 500.00. This is about 20,000 savings to payouts. I just hope that at a minimum, we can fill a couple more leagues before sunday night. I think that free entries are a nice fill in for cash prizes. I think that a majority of players will return next year anyways. Plus how can your wife say no when you have won a free entry the previous year.

I guess I am for keeping the 100,000 and leaving league 1st and 2nd place where they are. Cut third place in each league to 500.00. I think you have to pay 2nd and 3rd overall some cash but it can be cut down some provided that free entries are added in.

[ March 10, 2004, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: Hoosier Hick ]

SoonerC · Post by **SoonerC** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:57 pm

Assuming you are needing to cut 25K out of the prize pool, here are my suggestions. Replace the $2,500 4th overall with a free entry and/or merchandise. Lower the league prizes for the NFCB to $4,500, $1,750, & a free entry next year. For 11 leagues this would save another $13,750. This would get you well over half the way there and hopefully the additional entries coming in will take care of the rest. This will be a great thing in the future for all concerned and I think we all need to stick together on this. I can't imagine anybody threatening to pull out knowing the alternatives out there and that none of them are run anywhere nearly as well as this one appears to be. I just think it is important for the future to not mess with the top 3 overall prizes and in fact I hope 2nd & 3rd can be increased in the future. In my humble opinion, it would be better for the league winners, who are going to end up ahead anyway, to sacrifice a little this year to keep the top prizes in place.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:05 pm

I'll repeat what I said on the other thread, slightly modified.

OVERALL

#1 $100,000

#2 $10000+free entry next yr

#3 $5000+free entry

#4 $1250+free entry

#5 free entry

LEAGUE

#1 $5000

#2 $1250 +$750 off next yr's entry

#3 $750 off next yr's entry

These changes would incrementally save $22,500 on a cash flow basis for '04 with minimal impact, in my opinion, on perceived value of the prize payout. It also locks in or strongly motivates 26 players to return for next season.

For next season, the discounted players would come a net expense (22 players @ $1250*.75-$500) of just $9,625 (or less if not everyone uses their credit), which would hardly cut into a potential revenue base of $375k or more.

[ March 10, 2004, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:22 pm

All very good thoughts and helpful. Just so you know, these are just proposals I'm suggesting. I'm new to this "wait 'til the last second to enter" contests and if we get 30 entries in the last four days we'll be fine. The three tonight lifted my spirits because I haven't heard a word from two of the new guys before seeing their credit cards entered online.

We have not decided anything and won't budge at all if we don't have to. We just wanted to get a feel for what everyone thought if we made an alteration to the prize pool and wanted to make sure it was the right one when our deadline comes around on Sunday. You guys have been incredibly helpful and we'll wait a little longer before deciding anything.

Again, the current prize structure remains in place as I sit here tonight. Let's keep pushing for last minute entries and the Pete Rose autographed baseballs to our final entrants is still a good offer. Let's have a ninth inning rally in New York and Chicago, especially, and even Las Vegas and pull out a big win for everyone. If you know of someone on the fence about this, have them call me at 715-445-4612, ext. 284 and I'll assure them of what they're getting into.

I'd cut out the free beers I promised everyone to save money, but that's a tough pill to swallow. I'll need a few of those drinks myself come March 19th and 20th.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:24 pm

Option 1:

REDUCE each league 3rd place finisher from $750 to $500.

Savings = $3,500

REDUCE GP from $100,000 to $80,000.

Savings = $20,000

Option 2:

REDUCE each league 3rd place finisher from $750 to 1/2 free entry into NFBC next year.

Savings = $10,500

REDUCE GP from $100,000 to $87,000.

Savings = $13,000

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:27 pm

Thanks to the Duke for the "1/2 free entry to next year's gig" idea. Will ensure some repeat customers who were close to winning their league titles. Keep up the good work Duke!

SoonerC · Post by **SoonerC** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:30 pm

Now you ticked me off Greg. You have promised me that beer way too many times to back out now! I know one thing, I'm going to have a great time next week regardless of how this ends up.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:36 pm

If there is one thing I can definitely guarantee you, it's that the first beer is on me. No questions about that!!!

Cellar Dwellers · Post by **Cellar Dwellers** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:37 pm

Here's my take on it: Although I personally wouldn't have a problem with the grand prize going down to 80K or 90K, I don't think that's the way to go to benefit the NFBC. They are trying to create a brand here and keeping the 100K is probably essential to that. Here's how I think it can be done without pissing off too many people:

1-100K

2-7.5K

3-4K

4-Free entry 2005

5-Free entry 2005

That's a savings of 13.5K. When you add in taking away the free entries for 6,7,8th place, that's another 3.75K. Then for the league prizes:

1-5K

2-1.5K

3-$500

That gives an additional saving of 5.5K. Added all together it comes out to a $22,750.00 reduction. I believe in my heart you will get at least another full league before it's all said and done, so the 22.75K seems doable to me without any major distortions to the prizes. You will be building a brand that will be THE game to play in future years, it's all up from here.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:45 pm

Originally posted by Cellar Dwellers:

Here's how I think it can be done without pissing off too many people: 2-7.5K (Down from $15,000) **OWNER PISSED

3-4K (Down from $7,500) **OWNER PISSED

4-Free entry 2005 (Down from $2,500) **OWNER PISSED

add in taking away the free entries for

6 **OWNER PISSED,

7 **OWNER PISSED,

8th place **OWNER PISSED

Then for the league prizes:

2-1.5K **OWNERS PISSED

[ March 10, 2004, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: Gordon Gekko ]

Jackstraw · Post by **Jackstraw** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:49 pm

What is Uncle Sam's cut on whatever we win that has to be reported?

SoonerC · Post by **SoonerC** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:51 pm

Anything over $600 has to be reported. As far as Uncle Sams cut, that depends on what tax bracket you are in and how many expenses you can offset your winnings with.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:09 pm

Are you telling me you would stay in the NFBC if I used your model, Cellar Dwellars? I enjoyed our conversation today and learned from it. In my heart I think we'll get another league too, but I'm preparing for anything. Your scenario is doable.

Cellar Dwellers · Post by **Cellar Dwellers** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:11 pm

Gekko-You're not thinking about what's best for the NFBC and what they are trying to create here. I can't see how people would be upset about not getting a free entry for finishing 6,7, or 8th. Something's got to be cut somewhere without 300 players and cutting the Grand Prize, while it wouldn't bother me, is not good for the NFBC, who advertised a 100K prize.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:11 pm

I'm bowing out for tonight, guys. Keep the suggestions coming. Better yet, keep the signups coming. Nothing would make me feel better than a New York minute rush from New Yorkers and everyone else.

Cellar Dwellers · Post by **Cellar Dwellers** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:12 pm

Yes Greg, I'd definitely stay in with that scenario.

Dyv · Post by **Dyv** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:27 pm

I don't understand how a grand prize of $85k would ruin this event.

Cellar Dwellars, can you help me understand that?

We seem to operate on the assumption that $100k is untouchable. It's ridiculous to put our stake in the ground around protecting almost 50% of the total inflow for the contest to a single person at the cost of everyone else in the contest.

Why not just make it winner take all then?

Ridiculous...

Dyv

Dyv · Post by **Dyv** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:28 pm

Originally posted by Cellar Dwellers:

Gekko-You're not thinking about what's best for the NFBC and what they are trying to create here. I can't see how people would be upset about not getting a free entry for finishing 6,7, or 8th. Something's got to be cut somewhere without 300 players and cutting the Grand Prize, while it wouldn't bother me, is not good for the NFBC, who advertised a 100K prize. I would be upset if I finished in 7th overall and got nothing for it when a free entry was offered. I would NOT be upset if Greg handed me a check for $80,000 in October...

Dave

Dyv · Post by **Dyv** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:29 pm

(or $75k or $80k or $85k... whatever)

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:29 pm

Originally posted by Cellar Dwellers:

Gekko-You're not thinking about what's best for the NFBC and what they are trying to create here. Sorry, but I am. You need to reward the skilled fantasy players with decent payouts. Winning 7.5K for coming in second out of 165 players is too low. I'm curious, have you ever played in a high stakes event? If so, what?

Originally posted by Cellar Dwellers:

Something's got to be cut somewhere without 300 players and cutting the Grand Prize, while it wouldn't bother me, is not good for the NFBC, who advertised a 100K prize. They also advertised 2nd place overall at $15,000 and 3rd place overall at $7,500. So what's your point? We aren't playing the lottery here. Again, skilled fantasy players need to be rewarded.

Legend7 · Post by **Legend7** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:39 pm

Greg,

I (for one)won't bolt regardless what you guys decide, just let me know when it's my turn to pick, I'm coming to play...You fence sitters are crazy not getting in this thing, your taking a pass on history I'm telling ya....don't panic Greg we still have time to make a big rally of players...

______________________________

Build it and they will come...

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:51 pm

Greg, I'm in this for the long haul. Please do what is necessary for the survival of this league. The important thing to remember is tthat you're never going to make everyone completely happy. I believe that even if you HAD gotten 300 owners to sign up, there would be people questioning KP's profit on the event--that you guys were making too much. It's just human nature--people will always have a reason to complain about something, no matter how hard you try.

Now, about those pinch hitters...