Hall of Fame Prospects

[Navel Lint]

RE: Bagwell (sorry if someone else made this point and I missed it)

If someone like Larry Walker has to pay the Coors tax and have his numbers discounted, Bagwell should be given extra credit for calling the Astrodome home for so many years. It was PETCO before PETCO was PETCO.

Listening to some sports writers this week, I don't think Bagwell was kept out because of his stats (Read PED's)

[Ryan C]

Nice point Todd.

Since PED's has obviously come up - and the name K Hernandez - I recalled reading on some board somewhere about the guys like Mex, Parker, Gooden and Raines who used the Performance Reducing Drug of choice in the 80's - cocaine.

Made me laugh a bit when I read it.

[ToddZ]

RE: Bagwell (sorry if someone else made this point and I missed it)

If someone like Larry Walker has to pay the Coors tax and have his numbers discounted, Bagwell should be given extra credit for calling the Astrodome home for so many years. It was PETCO before PETCO was PETCO.

Listening to some sports writers this week, I don't think Bagwell was kept out because of his stats (Read PED's)

Apparently, 4 writers feel Bill Mueller must have been clean. Too bad he is off the ballot next year.

[DOUGHBOYS]

One part of me can't help but think that the question posed to voters was, 'Do you remember Bill Mueller?'
Not, 'Should Bill Mueller be in the Hall of Fame?
On second thought, he probably would have received the same four votes for both questions.

Sometimes with the Hall of Fame voters, I feel like we are watching ice skating from Moscow with Soviet and American skaters on the ice and only Russian judges.
We know what the outcome will be, but we hope for better.

[Ryan C]

Congrats to Larkin for making it in. Doesn't look good for Morris with the influx of candidates coming to the ballot.

Next year will be a doozy with Bonds, Sosa and Clemens joining Big Mac and Raffy on the All-PED squad.

Biggio should get in ahead of Bagwell.

Piazza is a likely 1st ballot guy, but he will get a long look and maybe we hear more stories about his "back-ne".

Curt Schilling is an interesting case.

I think Raines' candidcay actually takes a hit next year as Kenny Lofton comes on the ballot. I don't think anyone really thinks Lofton is a HOF. But take a look at his numbers next to Raines. Lofton comes up a little short of Raines offensive numbers. However he was by far the superior defensive player. I just think it doesn't help Raines at all to have voters consider a player like Lofton while deciding on Raines. Of course, the flip side is that it could actually help Lofton's cause.

[Money]

Jack Morris-

Jack Morris will almost forever be known as a 'Big Game Pitcher'. On October 27, 1991, Morris pitched the game that will be etched in fans minds forever. In the seventh game of the World Series, he hurled 10 innings of shutout ball to propel the Twins to a World Championship. That game is also in Hall of Fame voters minds.
Morris received 53% of the 75% vote needed to gain Hall entry in 2011.

Morris had 254 career wins. 42nd on the all time list. He was the winningest pitcher in the 1980's. 162 of his wins came in that decade. Morris also holds the distinction of being named the starter in more Opening Day games than any other pitcher, 14.

Morris never had a season with an E.R.A. below 3.00. In fact, only one time in his career did he get below the 3.25 mark. Even in the 'Big Games' of the post season for which he is lauded, Morris had a 3.80 E.R.A. That is counting the 10 inning gem. Morris lifetime E.R.A. is one that would make him tough to draft in an 'All time Career' Draft. That lifetime E.R.A. is 3.90.
If voted in, he would have the highest lifetime E.R.A. of any pitcher in the Hall of Fame.
His k/inn ratio was below 7/9 for his career. Only notching over 200 strike outs in three seasons. He led the league in wild pitches six times and ranks eighth in lifetime wild pitches.

Let's compare Morris to a pitcher Not in the Hall of Fame.
A pitcher who threw for the Twins a generation before Morris, Jim Kaat.
Morris had 254 wins. Kaat 283 wins.
Morris had 2478 strike outs. Kaat had 2461
Morris a 1.30 WHIP. Kaat, 1.26
Morris E.R.A. OF 3.90 vs. Kaat's 3.45

The major difference in voters minds is Morris marvelous effort in game seven. It isn't enough.
Morris comes up short for credentials to enter the Hall. A solid big league pitcher. A career for which any starting pitcher can aspire. Just not a Hall of Fame hurler.

I disagree, although I do think that both belong in the hall of fame.

The thing that pushes me over the top with Morris is that he was the stud starting pitcher for three (different) teams that won the World Series. That along with being the winningest pitcher in 80's.

[DOUGHBOYS]

One problem that has been hinted at, but not discussed, is the voters elitists attitude among themselves and the players.
Not only do they think about whether a candidate is worthy, they think about whether he is first ballot worthy or second ballot worthy.
Hogwash!
And I don't know what hogwash is, maybe Lindy can tell me, but it is hogwash!
Larkin is the same player as the first time they voted. He didn't get better as the ballots proceeded. It is there job to put Hall of Fame electees on ballots, not discern when.

Jim Kaat should be in the Hall of Fame. Until then, I can't get behind Jack Morris. By becoming the elitist voters that they have become, they are creating a logjam of folks that should be in the Hall of Fame. So, we have the veterans committee to right their wrongs. If they get it right the first time, they wouldn't need the mattress under the tightrope.
To put it in street terms, they have a stick up their ass.

The one or two players per year being let in has left great players by the way side. It happened to Hodges. It happened to Kaat. It happened to Santo. Deserving players are not being honored. Or worse, the error lasts so long that the recipient, like Santo, is not alive to see the honor.

[Navel Lint]

Jack Morris-

Jack Morris will almost forever be known as a 'Big Game Pitcher'. On October 27, 1991, Morris pitched the game that will be etched in fans minds forever. In the seventh game of the World Series, he hurled 10 innings of shutout ball to propel the Twins to a World Championship. That game is also in Hall of Fame voters minds.
Morris received 53% of the 75% vote needed to gain Hall entry in 2011.

Morris had 254 career wins. 42nd on the all time list. He was the winningest pitcher in the 1980's. 162 of his wins came in that decade. Morris also holds the distinction of being named the starter in more Opening Day games than any other pitcher, 14.

Morris never had a season with an E.R.A. below 3.00. In fact, only one time in his career did he get below the 3.25 mark. Even in the 'Big Games' of the post season for which he is lauded, Morris had a 3.80 E.R.A. That is counting the 10 inning gem. Morris lifetime E.R.A. is one that would make him tough to draft in an 'All time Career' Draft. That lifetime E.R.A. is 3.90.
If voted in, he would have the highest lifetime E.R.A. of any pitcher in the Hall of Fame.
His k/inn ratio was below 7/9 for his career. Only notching over 200 strike outs in three seasons. He led the league in wild pitches six times and ranks eighth in lifetime wild pitches.

Let's compare Morris to a pitcher Not in the Hall of Fame.
A pitcher who threw for the Twins a generation before Morris, Jim Kaat.
Morris had 254 wins. Kaat 283 wins.
Morris had 2478 strike outs. Kaat had 2461
Morris a 1.30 WHIP. Kaat, 1.26
Morris E.R.A. OF 3.90 vs. Kaat's 3.45

The major difference in voters minds is Morris marvelous effort in game seven. It isn't enough.
Morris comes up short for credentials to enter the Hall. A solid big league pitcher. A career for which any starting pitcher can aspire. Just not a Hall of Fame hurler.

I disagree, although I do think that both belong in the hall of fame.

The thing that pushes me over the top with Morris is that he was the stud starting pitcher for three (different) teams that won the World Series. That along with being the winningest pitcher in 80's.

I saw this on Clubhouse Confidential yesterday. So I gotta give them the credit……

Is Curt Shilling a HOF pitcher? I think he will get a good look, but most will say no.

Let’s compare the stats of Morris and Shilling.

Morris 254-186 .577 Win % / 3.90era / 105era+ / 1.296WHiP
Shilling 216-146 .597 Win % / 3.46era / 128era+ / 1.137WHiP

Other than Wins, which is a big other, Shilling looks to be the better pitcher.

But Morris was a big game pitcher you say. Game 7!

And game 7 was great, maybe the greatest in the WS considering the circumstances, but let’s look at Morris’ and Shilling's post season records.

Morris ---- Shilling

Rec --- 7-4 ---- 11-2
Inn --- 92.1 --- 133.1
ERA --- 3.80 --- 2.23
WS --- 4-2 (7 Starts, 2.96era) ---- 4-1 (7 Starts, 2.06era)

Between the two, Shilling is the pitcher that should probably get in……..and I don’t think he will.

On the bright side for Morris though, no player has ever gotten as much as 65 percent of the vote that didn’t eventually get in. So history suggest things look good for your guy.