This Post Has No 'Value'

[DOUGHBOYS]

I've had a few pm's and e-mails from folks who have not been with the NFBC long asking what I find offensive about the word 'value'. I like the word. Andy Nolan even caught me using the word in Las Vegas last year. Really, it's not the word itself, it is the way fantasy players use the word. I think some of these folks want to see me go on a rant, but I'll try to stay level headed while talking about the misuse of the word.

In the most simplistic terms, any drafter who picks a player after their adp number is said to have gotten 'value'. THAT, makes me cringe.
I don't know what Justin Morneau's adp is going to be or even if an adp has been determined yet. Let's say it is the 15th round.
I've seen Morneau taken in the 13th round and 19th round.
Did the 19th round fella get value?
NO. It's January.
BOTH picks could be boom or bust. The value is not realized till the end of September.

We take Morneau in the 19th round and pat ourselves on the back. We got 'value'. Then enter another draft with Childs, Jupinka, Duke, Nolan, Hinkleman,etc and we see Morneau taken in the 30th round. That sure tarnishes the luster on that 'value' pick, right? Although the cumulative adp on Morneau is the 15th round, it is evident that the sharks feel it should be lower.
'Value is relative in March, not determined.

There was a fella who drafted Wilton Lopez in the 20th round of my current draft. Another drafter piped up that he took Lopez in the 27th round of another draft. Good for him. He thinks he got 'value'. All he got was a player earlier in one draft than another player in this draft. In the end it means nada, zero, zilch....except for some trash talk.

Last year, I saw somebody ridiculed by a drafter for taking Matt Kemp in the first round when others were getting him in the second, he then took Carl Crawford.
Who's laughing now, the guy who won the league in which Kemp was the leader, or the poor soul who took 'value' in Crawford, while yapping at the Kemp picker?

The value is all perceived. I realized this on an outing with my Grandson's. We went to the Dollar Store. Upon arrival at the Dollar Store, I always open the doors and proclaim, "Boys, ANYTHING in this whole store is yours!" They love that. So do I.
On a particular trip, they both got mystery bags. A closed paper bag for a dollar that has a 'value' of a dollar, but is a mystery to the buyer.
One of the boys got a Hershey Bar and a Hot Wheels, perfect for an eight year old boy.
The nine year old got a ruler. No 'value' for him. They both paid the same price. Both did not get the same value.

We have a track record before our pick. An advantage over the 'Mystery Sacks'.
Sometimes those matter, sometimes they don't.
Before last year, we could set our 40 home run compass by Adam Dunn. He went in the fourth and fifth rounds because of the sure thing that his home runs had become. If taken in the sixth round, it was considered 'value'.
That 'value' taken in ANY round including the 30th would go on to hurt your team last year. There wasn't a bigger fantasy cancer for a team than Dunn.

As fantasy drafters, we are too much in the moment. We 'project' these stats in March. Almost like those stats are visible in our fantasy checking account, forgetting that it's just a virtual account.
Analysts are putting Dunn's home run totals for 2012 in the 20's.
Of course they are.
When these guys put a 'stuck in the middle with you' number, it means they're throwing their hands up and saying, 'You figure out Dunn, I can't!
Dunn was taken in the 15th round of my current draft. Talk about stuck in the middle!
Dunn could revert back to fifth round status or be that cancer that ruins teams again.
And whether you take him in the 10th round or 20th round, he could carry or kill your team.
Go ahead, project that 'value'.

[OaktownSteve]

I am new to the NFBC but not new to the game. I still call it Rotisserie Baseball.

I agree with what you wrote and have been saying about the same thing myself for years. In fact I usually take the anti-value crusade a bit further still. It's tough to talk about the value of any player without context. If you have Brett Gardner, Coco Crisp, and Juan Pierre, how much is Michael Bourn worth? How much value does Bourn have on a team where the other 13 guys all run like Bengie Molina?

What's Paul Konerko worth? What if he's all that's standing between you and James Loney? What if you already have Joey Votto?

I could go on but you get the point. The value is in the context of your team, in the context of your plan.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Nail on the head.
We can call it the speed trap.
Bourn is taken in the third round. Then, one of three things happens-

1. Speed is forgotten. Bourn's stolen bases are in the bank. The drafter thinks that by taking Bourn, the burden of other speed is lifted. Check out how teams with 60 stolen bases fared in their league standings last year.

2. Speed is followed up with more speed. This drafter will win the category by a mile and be fighting the other four categories all year. A 15 in sb's will never be remembered with 1's and 2's in the other categories

3. Speed is blended. It can be done with Bourn being taken third although roster construction is a lot more difficult for the drafter. In order to 75-75, the first two picks must be power hitters.

Roster construction trumps 'value' every time. Seldom are 'Value' picks remembered in September, but some will marvel at a winners roster construction.

[JRubenstein]

So as the third round "Bourne"r, I feel like I must defend myself by mentioning that my first two picks were Fielder and Teixeira...I do agree that Bourne's value to me at this point was way higher than his value to others, but I got one of the pitchers I got it the 4th round and I risked losing my plan by not taking Bourne right away...As Dan says--who really knows in January, let alone March anyway.

[DOUGHBOYS]

No need for defending yourself. Bourn can work in the third round. Scrutinization (oh come on, spell checker!)of following picks become magnified. You're in my draft, so I know that you've done a good job with the follow up picks.
Some folks have e-mailed me to say that with this being a contract year and stolen bases being the only stat that can be 'wiggle roomed' into excess, that Bourn could have the best year of his career. And they could be right.

[KJ Duke]

On a particular trip, they both got mystery bags. A closed paper bag for a dollar that has a 'value' of a dollar, but is a mystery to the buyer.
One of the boys got a Hershey Bar and a Hot Wheels, perfect for an eight year old boy.
The nine year old got a ruler. No 'value' for him. They both paid the same price. Both did not get the same value.

I see you're already preparing them for life with fantasy baseball. The kid with the ruler should get to the top first.

Was your next line, "stop bothering me kid, go measure somethin'." ?

[DOUGHBOYS]

Exactly!
One got Asdrubal Cabrera, the other got Seth Smith.
While the first kid eats and has a good time all year, the other will have to pick his spots and know when to get the most use out of his ruler.

[bjoak]

And really, if all you're doing is trying to pick players after their adp has passed, you might as well have a monkey draft in your place. It doesn't take much of a brain to figure out who has fallen the farthest, yet it seems like some people use it as their sole strategy.

Projecting Dunn for 20 homers is not exactly saying you don't know. The suggestion has to do with luck and skill. Anyone who has dropped off as much as Dunn had to have two things working against him: luck and skill. Almost anyone would think his skills have dropped, but do you think they dropped off so powerfully that he legitimately changed from a .260, 40 homer guy to a .160 10 homer guy? He had to have some luck working against him as well. But did his luck legitimately drop him 100 points in batting average and sap all of his power so that he will go right back to normal next year? That doesn't seem likely either.

The idea is that one assumes the luck side of the ledger will go back to normal while he will still have the declining skills that were part of the problem, thus his projection will be somewhere between 2010 and 2011.

Also, though, really, Dan? Projecting him for .220 with 20 homers isn't making a judgement? Are you rushing to put that guy on your team in even the 30th round?

[DOUGHBOYS]

Also, though, really, Dan? Projecting him for .220 with 20 homers isn't making a judgement? Are you rushing to put that guy on your team in even the 30th round?

Until last year, Mark Reynolds was Mark Reynolds and Adam Dunn was Adam Dunn.
Now, Mark Reynolds is Adam Dunn and Adam Dunn is Mark Reynolds.
Instead of trying figure out who will be who next year, I'll take the easy route and project that they won't be on my team.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Also, though, really, Dan? Projecting him for .220 with 20 homers isn't making a judgement? Are you rushing to put that guy on your team in even the 30th round?

Until last year, Mark Reynolds was Mark Reynolds and Adam Dunn was Adam Dunn.
Now, Mark Reynolds is Adam Dunn and Adam Dunn is Mark Reynolds.
Instead of trying figure out who will be who next year, I'll take the easy route and project that they won't be on my team.

[bjoak]

Also, though, really, Dan? Projecting him for .220 with 20 homers isn't making a judgement? Are you rushing to put that guy on your team in even the 30th round?

Until last year, Mark Reynolds was Mark Reynolds and Adam Dunn was Adam Dunn.
Now, Mark Reynolds is Adam Dunn and Adam Dunn is Mark Reynolds.
Instead of trying figure out who will be who next year, I'll take the easy route and project that they won't be on my team.

Right!

[Quahogs]

Value and sleeper. It's just jargon. It's how we (fantasy players) converse with each other. We hear it and can then decipher what the other person is talking about. There's really no other word that fairs better as a replacement. You can go thesaurus on us but why bother. The meaning is understood.

How're ya doing ? It's a greeting. Not many really care and the same amount don't care to say ! But we use it and hear it 100x a day.

I did find a website for you doughy where you can commiserate. Lots of people hate lots of words out there...
http://boards.weddingbee.com/topic/fill ... the-word-_

[ToddZ]

I agree.

TAKE CARE.

[DOUGHBOYS]

How ya doing, Steve.

I looked and all I can say is what a retarded post

I know, I've had others call semantics on me, but it's more than that. It's the apperance that if somebody beats adp that they've won something.
You know just not getting the overall picture.

Here's a real bad joke to illustrate this 'value'...

A circle is painted on a man's lawn. He is told that if staying in that circle for the next 10 minutes, he will be paid $100.
Upon stepping in the circle, he sees that house is egged, his car is tarred, and his trees are cut. All of which could have been prevented had he gone outside the circle.
At the end of the 10 minutes, he is paid his $100 and he laughs in the face of the better.
The better says, "Why are you laughing, your damage is well over $100!"
The guy in the circle says, "Yeah, but I stepped out of the circle five times and you never saw me!"

[Quahogs]

I agree.

TAKE CARE.

Right Todd ?! You catch my drift ?

Say WHAT ? Catch my drift ? (does anyone really say "what" after that?)

From what I gather the phrase catch my drift has been around a long time. Shakespeare uses my drift (meaning my meaning) a in a few of his plays.

[ToddZ]

Word.

[DOUGHBOYS]

How about a newer one, Steve?
We've been talking about this in the chat room of our draft.
Does anybody really lol? I snicker quietly or sq, I hardly ever lol.
Todd brought up that he's never ROFLMAO and neither have I.
My dog does enjoy ROF though.

[Quahogs]

How ya doing, Steve.

I looked and all I can say is what a retarded post

I know, I've had others call semantics on me, but it's more than that. It's the apperance that if somebody beats adp that they've won something.
You know just not getting the overall picture.

Here's a real bad joke to illustrate this 'value'...

A circle is painted on a man's lawn. He is told that if staying in that circle for the next 10 minutes, he will be paid $100.
Upon stepping in the circle, he sees that house is egged, his car is tarred, and his trees are cut. All of which could have been prevented had he gone outside the circle.
At the end of the 10 minutes, he is paid his $100 and he laughs in the face of the better.
The better says, "Why are you laughing, your damage is well over $100!"
The guy in the circle says, "Yeah, but I stepped out of the circle five times and you never saw me!"

Not bad, pretty go... hey wait a minute

Value represents opinion. In his opinion he thought he got the better of a few people. How else would he describe his drafting a player 3 rounds later than his perceived normal slot ? At the end of the day he's simply making conversation whether it be verbal or in writing. Kind of like an ice breaker.

[DOUGHBOYS]

How ya doing, Steve.

I looked and all I can say is what a retarded post

I know, I've had others call semantics on me, but it's more than that. It's the apperance that if somebody beats adp that they've won something.
You know just not getting the overall picture.

Here's a real bad joke to illustrate this 'value'...

A circle is painted on a man's lawn. He is told that if staying in that circle for the next 10 minutes, he will be paid $100.
Upon stepping in the circle, he sees that house is egged, his car is tarred, and his trees are cut. All of which could have been prevented had he gone outside the circle.
At the end of the 10 minutes, he is paid his $100 and he laughs in the face of the better.
The better says, "Why are you laughing, your damage is well over $100!"
The guy in the circle says, "Yeah, but I stepped out of the circle five times and you never saw me!"

Not bad, pretty go... hey wait a minute

Value represents opinion. In his opinion he thought he got the better of a few people. How else would he describe his drafting a player 3 rounds later than his perceived normal slot ? At the end of the day he's simply making conversation whether it be verbal or in writing. Kind of like an ice breaker.

Still, its like bragging that you got laid and not mentioning she was 75 years old.

[Quahogs]

How about a newer one, Steve?
We've been talking about this in the chat room of our draft.
Does anybody really lol? I snicker quietly or sq, I hardly ever lol.
Todd brought up that he's never ROFLMAO and neither have I.
My dog does enjoy ROF though.

I kind of make a verbal ha when it's words. I'm more visual slapstick though. I LOL more so at movement/expression. The word or picture just doesn't carry the same weight for me. I actually do type HA! often.

[Quahogs]

How ya doing, Steve.

I looked and all I can say is what a retarded post

I know, I've had others call semantics on me, but it's more than that. It's the apperance that if somebody beats adp that they've won something.
You know just not getting the overall picture.

Here's a real bad joke to illustrate this 'value'...

A circle is painted on a man's lawn. He is told that if staying in that circle for the next 10 minutes, he will be paid $100.
Upon stepping in the circle, he sees that house is egged, his car is tarred, and his trees are cut. All of which could have been prevented had he gone outside the circle.
At the end of the 10 minutes, he is paid his $100 and he laughs in the face of the better.
The better says, "Why are you laughing, your damage is well over $100!"
The guy in the circle says, "Yeah, but I stepped out of the circle five times and you never saw me!"

Not bad, pretty go... hey wait a minute

Value represents opinion. In his opinion he thought he got the better of a few people. How else would he describe his drafting a player 3 rounds later than his perceived normal slot ? At the end of the day he's simply making conversation whether it be verbal or in writing. Kind of like an ice breaker.

Still, its like bragging that you got laid and not mentioning she was 75 years old.

But he did get his meaning across to you. That was his intent. You know what he was talking about (thru the word value) but you just don't agree with him.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Alright, the meaning is there.
But still, there's that mental victory dance that goes with it, included.
The word 'value' itself implies getting something of worth.
Even in the 8th round last year, Adam Dunn owners got trouble, not 'value'.

But yes, I see that it is an ends to a means and maybe I should end these means by just saying yes, I get it.

[DOUGHBOYS]

But, it still remains on my list of George Carlin fantasy words.

[Quahogs]

With this I shall leave you my calling card ...

[DOUGHBOYS]

With this I shall leave you my calling card ...

SQ!