Roto Snips

[rockitsauce]

kyle lohse is in a worse situation.. who the hell is going to sign that guy?

I don't see how Lohse is in a worse situation. He's a SP. Teams ('cept maybe the Dodgers this yr) ALWAYS need SP. The recent news about Carpenter seems like it def. helps his cause to get a deal done w/ the Cards.

Whoops. Totally forgot about the loss of draft pk for whichever tm signs him. My bag, or bad....whatever, my mistake You have great pt there Swamp Thing. As a guy who just drafted the Tony LaRussa imposter I hope he does go back to Cards.

where's LaRussa?

Kyle-Lohse-is-Hipster-Tony-La-Russa.png (137.49 KiB) Viewed 9208 times

Alan, w/ or w/out Bourn the Mets are still battling the Marlins to stay out of the cellar. Get a grip...even Glenn knows that

[BK METS]

Diehard Mets fan here...just say no to Bourn! Stick with a plan for once...rebuild slowly but the right way

Who says signing Bourn is not sticking with the plan? And what is the plan in your mind? They already have one of the youngest teams in the majors and are middle of the pack in salary, even including Santana and the Bay remains. They need to attempt to field an adequate team. They have no outfield. They need a speed guy and defensive center fielder. Its funny that Mets fans don't want a winning team. I don't know about you but I want my team to contend. Signing a top fielding speed centerfielder is something that needs to be done for now.. I think its is definitely worth signing Bourn, as long as they don't have to give up a draft pick.

[mbendar16]

Alan, I'm another big-time Mets fan on the "no" to Bourn plan. The only constant is defense, and that isn't worth the price Boras will ask for. Desperation for an OF isn't a reason to sign him, as leadoff men that strike out 150 times a year will likely decline over the life of whatever contract they give him, as soon as this year. Boras thrives on desperation and hopefully the Mets don't fall for his latest trap to overpay 1 of his players.

There is no question his defense would make the Mets a better team in 2013, but not enough to handcuff the team when the limited resources they now have are needed to sign the impact player they will need in 2-3 years to truly contend if everything goes according to their plan.

Mark

[BK METS]

Again with the "plan"... I haven't heard about this "plan"... is is to be competiive 5 years from now? Not acceptable for one of the richest teams in baseball. Mets fans have accepted a below .500 team. The Mets have not been competitive in 7 years. I am a season ticket holder that will not accept Shaun Marcum as the only major league free agent signed (I don't count Brandon Lyon... barely a middle reliever) after losing our Cy Young award winner. Mets fans need to wake up and not accept a loser. And last time I checked, its not your money being spent. Through it all, the Wilpons' are still billionaires and Mets fans deserve better. I like that we are building through the farm system. I am all for that. But we have exactly ZERO outfielders. Even the young teams, if they are going to be contenders, need to pick up one or two legit free agents. Bourn is not a permanent fix, but he solidifies the outfield with a guy that can cover ground and can lead off and steal bases. He is everything they need right now. Yet, "Mets" fans want to stick to the "plan". If that means another 2 or 3 "90 loss" seasons, that's not a plan that is acceptable to me.

[Wolfpac]

I've had this conversation with plenty fellow mets fans...i love what the mets are finally doing but i think they NEED to sign Bourn. First I think the Mets can be legit contenders in 2015 and Bourn can provide solid output from now till 2016. Also attendance keeps dipping and the Mets have a mountain of debt, but its a catch 22 if they dont spend some now they will have less to spend in the future...mets need the revenue so if nothing else signing Bourn could increase said revenue while filling a need for the next 4 years in the OF

[BK METS]

I've had this conversation with plenty fellow mets fans...i love what the mets are finally doing but i think they NEED to sign Bourn. First I think the Mets can be legit contenders in 2015 and Bourn can provide solid output from now till 2016. Also attendance keeps dipping and the Mets have a mountain of debt, but its a catch 22 if they dont spend some now they will have less to spend in the future...mets need the revenue so if nothing else signing Bourn could increase said revenue while filling a need for the next 4 years in the OF

THANK YOU! Finally a Met fan that gets it. It not about Michael Bourn helping them win a world series this year. Its about showing your fans that you give a crap about the team, you have no outfield, and at least making an attempt to win. As far as Bourn's value, if you look at these 3 guys who were free agents this year, and their contracts, you will see what he is worth. Bourn just turned 30. Being fair, every free agent ranking I have seen, from CBS to Foxsports to bleacher report, they all rank Bourn higher than all of these guys, but I would rank Upton a little higher because of the power numbers.

BJ Upton - Similar - Younger, more power, lower BA, decent OF - 5 years 75 Million
Shane Victorino - Worse overall - A little older, a little more power, less speed, average OF - 3 years 39 Million
Angel Pagan - Worse overall - A little older, same power, less speed, bad OF - 4 Years 40 Million

Based upon these guys, 3 years 42 Million would be fair, maybe with a 4th year option.

[Edwards Kings]

Not a Mutts fan and have never even condescended to play one on TV, but if I can interject into this discussion on rebuilding the franchise, I think I know who would NOT like NY to sign Bourn. That would be the Nationals, Braves, and Phillies.

Why? Simple. Bourn over Tejada is a HUGE upgrade for at least several years until Bourn's speed starts to decline (no sign of it yet). Tejada is a guy who has speed, but won't steal, so is not really a threat to the pitchers. Bourn did strike out a lot, but still got on at a .350 OBP, which is not bad (not elite, but not bad). And he WILL steal and put worry on the pitchers/catchers.

Tejada
Murphy
Wright
Davis
Duda

Ehhh?

Bourn
Murphy
Wright
Davis
Duda

Makes that top five look a lot more intimidating to me.

The Mets may not challenge for the division in 2013, but they are going to be tougher than most think because Santana, Niese, Harvey are vastly underrated at the top of the rotation and there are a lot worse options than Marcum and Gee on the back end. A little more offense will make them much more competitive TODAY and maybe the spoiler. And NY LOVES their spoilers.

[DOUGHBOYS]

This thread has turned into a Bourn love/hate fest, so just to get back on track a little bit....

'Tigers pitching coach Jeff Jones told Lynn Henning of the Detroit News that they expect Casey Crosby to have a good spring training and a great season now that he's older and more experienced'


This is even better than the 'best shape of his life' blurbs.
With this logic, EVERY player in baseball will be a little bit better this year because they're more older and experienced.
Rumors are that Jones also came up with the line, "You're not getting older, you're getting better".


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Hanley Ramirez-
'The Dodgers were hoping that Ramirez would be able to work on his defense during winter ball, but he mostly served as the designated hitter. Only adding to their frustration is that he figures to play third base during the World Baseball Classic with Jose Reyes and Erick Aybar already in-house at shortstop for the Dominican Republic. Still, the Dodgers' plan right now is for Ramirez to play shortstop and Luis Cruz to open the year at third base.'


Is it just me, or does everybody in baseball know that Hanley is a crappy shortstop, EXCEPT FOR THE DODGERS?


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'Barry Zito says that he wants to finish his career with the Giants and would be open to a contract extension.
Zito is entering the final season of a seven-year, $126 million deal signed in 2006 and would almost certainly need to accept a "team-friendly" contract to return.'


Quite possibly, Zito's contract next year, might be for less than 1 per cent of his old one.
Translated to 'real people' incomes, a employee making $10 an hour this year, would be making less than 10 cents an hour next year.... Ouch.

[NorCalAtlFan]

"This thread has turned into a Bourn love/hate fest, so just to get back on track a little bit...."

it's been a baseball discussion. killjoy!

[Schwks]

Sorry Dan...one more Mets argument since my assertion was "attacked":

The Mets' plan seems to be building around a young, price effective starting rotation of Harvey , Wheeler and Niese and middle of lineup of Ike, Wright, D'Arnealt and attaining competitiveness in roughly 2015, perhaps 2014 if everything falls into place. Bourn is a 30 year old guy whose assets are his legs and I think we all know the dangers of investing in that. He is an imperfect leadoff guy, who has a 75% contact rate and strikes out a lot. Signing him at 10-15 mill per year even for 3 years hamstrings the Mets during the very year that they want to be adding key pieces to augment their run. Speaking of hamstrings Bourn is a hamstring pull away from being out of baseball and one season away from being Nyjer Morgan.

Mets should have gone harder after J Upton, who is 25 and has proven that he can carry a team. His contract fits in perfectly with the Mets' situation and he would be a good candidate to extend.

As I understand it from the WSJ and other financial papers, the Mets are bleeding money. They can not blame it entirely on Madoff. They need to turn their business model around in order to ascertain if they can achieve profitability. You can't expect even billionaires to run a team at a continual massive loss. Maybe this is Wilpon's fault or maybe the Stadium debt structure is gradually choking them off.

[BK METS]

Sorry Dan...one more Mets argument since my assertion was "attacked":

The Mets' plan seems to be building around a young, price effective starting rotation of Harvey , Wheeler and Niese and middle of lineup of Ike, Wright, D'Arnealt and attaining competitiveness in roughly 2015, perhaps 2014 if everything falls into place. Bourn is a 30 year old guy whose assets are his legs and I think we all know the dangers of investing in that. He is an imperfect leadoff guy, who has a 75% contact rate and strikes out a lot. Signing him at 10-15 mill per year even for 3 years hamstrings the Mets during the very year that they want to be adding key pieces to augment their run. Speaking of hamstrings Bourn is a hamstring pull away from being out of baseball and one season away from being Nyjer Morgan.

Mets should have gone harder after J Upton, who is 25 and has proven that he can carry a team. His contract fits in perfectly with the Mets' situation and he would be a good candidate to extend.

As I understand it from the WSJ and other financial papers, the Mets are bleeding money. They can not blame it entirely on Madoff. They need to turn their business model around in order to ascertain if they can achieve profitability. You can't expect even billionaires to run a team at a continual massive loss. Maybe this is Wilpon's fault or maybe the Stadium debt structure is gradually choking them off.

Makes no sense. Trading for Justin Upton would have cost them a lot of young talent.. which is exactly opposite of the "plan" you have for them. Bourn cost them nothing (hopefully) other than money. Which, by the way, Fred Wilpon's net worth is $500 million.

[BK METS]

Dan, I am sorry to hijack your thread regarding this Bourn situation. I will stop now. I am a lifelong Mets fan since 1969, and I have a lot of passion for my team. When I see other Mets fans accepting a loser, I feel it necessary to speak up. I will leave it alone for now. Sorry again.. Actually your snips are supposed to spur on conversation, right? I don't think I "attacked" anyone... just stating my opinion and disputing opinions of others.. Didn't think that was necessarily attacking... but either way, carry on...

[Glenneration X]

Dan, I am sorry to hijack your thread regarding this Bourn situation. I will stop now. I am a lifelong Mets fan since 1969, and I have a lot of passion for my team. When I see other Mets fans accepting a loser, I feel it necessary to speak up. I will leave it alone for now. Sorry again.. Actually your snips are supposed to spur on conversation, right? I don't think I "attacked" anyone... just stating my opinion and disputing opinions of others.. Didn't think that was necessarily attacking... but either way, carry on...

Keep up the good work Alan. We Mets fans are the ones who've been attacked on these boards. Jealousy for our soon to be great team obviously.

I believe the Mets are destined for a 1969 style out of nowhere surprise World Series victory this year. Remember you heard it here first!

All joking aside, conversation on these boards is good, especially when it's about my Mets. It's a lot more interesting than reading about someone taking 8 hours per pick every other day.

[76erfan]

Glenn, will Bourn get along with Upton tho on the Mets roster? #ThingsnoonebutLowywouldsay

[Glenneration X]

Glenn, will Bourn get along with Upton tho on the Mets roster? #ThingsnoonebutLowywouldsay

Andy, why do you think the Mets decided against trading for Upton. They knew Bourn was the real prize and realized that Upton would only get in the way. Pay attention my friend. I know watching the hopes and dreams of your beloved Phils spiral into the sewer with Halladay's shoulder, Howard's weight, Rollins' age, and Utley's too numerous to name is distracting for you, but try to keep up please.

[76erfan]

Glenn, will Bourn get along with Upton tho on the Mets roster? #ThingsnoonebutLowywouldsay

Andy, why do you think the Mets decided against trading for Upton. They knew Bourn was the real prize and realized that Upton would only get in the way. Pay attention my friend. I know watching the hopes and dreams of your beloved Phils spiral into the sewer with Halladay's shoulder, Howard's weight, Rollins' age, and Utley's too numerous to name is distracting for you, but try to keep up please.

oh we got question marks...but rollins was fine last year...howard is healthy and shed some weight..utley they say is ready to go(heard that before but at least he is a free agent end of year if it fails)

we definitely have some youth waiting in the wings in asche, galvis and some flame thrower relievers..plus we got younger in getting revere and hopefully ruf steps up....i think its a good mix if youth and veterans actually and i believe those counting the phils out after winning 5 of 6 division titles are making a really bad mistake. i would agree on paper nats and braves may be ranked higher....but on paper last year Oakland and Baltimore dont sniff playoffs.......

You touched on the #1 point..if halladay is healthy..the big 3 at top of rotation will still win alot of games...Halladay is the #1 key for his team

[Glenneration X]

we definitely have some youth waiting in the wings in asche, galvis and some flame thrower relievers..plus we got younger in getting revere and hopefully ruf steps up....i think its a good mix if youth and veterans actually and i believe those counting the phils out after winning 5 of 6 division titles are making a really bad mistake.

Keep dreaming my friend. After all, that's what being a fan is all about.

i would agree on paper the mets may be ranked much much much higher....

Well, at least you got this right!!

[Wolfpac]

Marcum was a good signing as was Lyon, but Bourn is the key piece for the Mets and not just for 2013...GOTTA BELIEVE

[76erfan]

haha....mets and jets....must be a tough tough season for you glenn. the highlight is the fantasy drafts. it goes downhill from there

[ALL-IN JD]

As a die hard Yankee fan and long time Met hater the musings that go on in Flushing every year certainly brighten my day!

Bourn or no Bourn, it will still be a 70-75 win season, tops!! Not sure what the plan is/was but trading away the Cy Young award winner (who you seemingly could not afford to pay a reasonable $10 million a year to) for a bunch of minor leaguers (yes Alan, I know it was quite a "haul") just doesn't make sense. The best way for the Mets to compete (in my humble opinion) would be with pitching and defense and a rotation anchored by Dickey (followed by Harvey, Santana, Marcum, Niese and Gee) would be damn impressive. Instead they will go pay Bourn $60 million for four years?? Guess that is a steal compared to the Jason Bay signing!!

[Glenneration X]

Who left the barn door open and let Yankees and Phils fans in here? Their clear Mets-envy keeps this from being a debate based on facts rather than mere jealousy of the Blue and Orange legacy.

Jeff, I do feel for you Yankees fans when the only thing you can root for this year is for ARod not to come back so your team can get the insurance payoff.

By the way, Youkilis? First Boggs, then Clemens and Damon, and now this? What's next, putting up a statue of Ted Williams in monument park?

[76erfan]

i think this needs an in person debate. I want to hear about this said "legacy"

Lowy...you drive yourself down to Philadelphia.......and I will take you to a game....my treat......vs the mets...pick a date on the schedule. we can debate how good the lyon,marcum signings are and the looming overpay of michael bourn then.

I am assuming he snow on L.I. will be gone by then

[ALL-IN JD]

Glenn,

The other thing I do is NOT start looking to forward to football season by the time the end of June rolls around!! (Oh wait, as a Jet fan you can't even do that anymore)!!

Like death and taxes, come October the Yankees will be in the big dance. It is frustrating to keep get knocked out and not winning the World Series but with solid ownership and one of the best GM's in baseball we will always be a threat to win it all!

I do look forward to the Amazings jumping out to their standard 5-0, 7-1 start so you can AT LEAST dream the impossible dream!!

[Glenneration X]

but with one of the best GM's in baseball we will always be a threat to win it all!

Jeff, when did the Yankees hire Sandy Alderson?

[76erfan]

Glenn,

The other thing I do is NOT start looking to forward to football season by the time the end of June rolls around!! (Oh wait, as a Jet fan you can't even do that anymore)!!

Like death and taxes, come October the Yankees will be in the big dance. It is frustrating to keep get knocked out and not winning the World Series but with solid ownership and one of the best GM's in baseball we will always be a threat to win it all!

I do look forward to the Amazings jumping out to their standard 5-0, 7-1 start so you can AT LEAST dream the impossible dream!!

can see the hot start coming already. they open with padres and marlins at home.