Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

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Outlaw
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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Outlaw » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:07 pm

KJ Duke wrote:I agree with everything that I can recall Dan has written in this thread. Braun, because twice he has been linked to this issue has an extra layer of risk on top of his expected performance.

Likewise, perceived risk is heightened when the cost of that risk increases.
* In a free "experts" league, I'd say "who cares?" if a suspension seems unlikely. No hard evidence, draft him.
* In a $150 DC, my opinion wouldn't change much. Go for it.
* In a main event, I'm working through my alternatives much more closely.
* In the Diamond league I'm asking myself, "do I want to potentially lose $75k because Ryan Braun might be a self-righteous jerk who's thinking he can cheat the system and get away it?", knowing yet another skeleton could be dug up. Even if I think he probably won't get busted, might be innocenent, and I estimate there's only a 1 in 20 chance he gets suspended, do I really want to risk having my team built around Lance Braunstrong?

Well Said KJ!

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Tom Kessenich
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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Tom Kessenich » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:09 pm

The other question for you KJ in the Diamond would be - "Do you want to potentially lose 75K because you passed on a proven superstar without a shred of evidence linking him to a possible suspension and allowed someone to get him at a discount in the first round?"

Just for the sake of discussion. ;)
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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:26 pm

Tom Kessenich wrote:The other question for you KJ in the Diamond would be - "Do you want to potentially lose 75K because you passed on a proven superstar without a shred of evidence linking him to a possible suspension and allowed someone to get him at a discount in the first round?"

Just for the sake of discussion. ;)
Tom, you're acting as if Braun is on an island in regards to talent.
Other players will be taken and leagues will be won with those players. Braun is talented, but he is no sure thing for a recipe to win in the NFBC.
He can be passed on and that drafter will still have a great team.
Braun is not a football number one that needs special rules.
He's among the top three that was the majority number one pick.
You make it seem like passing on him is a death knell.
It's not
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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Tom Kessenich » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:30 pm

DOUGHBOYS wrote:
Tom Kessenich wrote:The other question for you KJ in the Diamond would be - "Do you want to potentially lose 75K because you passed on a proven superstar without a shred of evidence linking him to a possible suspension and allowed someone to get him at a discount in the first round?"

Just for the sake of discussion. ;)
Tom, you're acting as if Braun is on an island in regards to talent.
Other players will be taken and leagues will be won with those players. Braun is talented, but he is no sure thing for a recipe to win in the NFBC.
He can be passed on and that drafter will still have a great team.
Braun is not a football number one that needs special rules.
He's among the top three that was the majority number one pick.
You make it seem like passing on him is a death knell.
It's not
Keep in mind I'm mainly having fun here and trying to provide a counterpoint to all the anti-Braun sentiment I'm seeing. :) There's no question other players will play key roles in fantasy titles in 2013. Braun's not the only great player available in drafts. I'm just loathe to allow someone in my league to get a major value pick in the very first round. So I'm not going to pass on a superstar and allow that to happen. I think you can make a strong argument why Miggy is safer than Braun and just as potentially valuable. Perhaps Trout as well. I think it gets much riskier after that, though. For all the potential concerns people may have with Braun there's just as much risk with the players after the Top 3 who could be taken ahead of him and in many cases there's a lot more. So if I'm picking 4th or later and Braun's there well ... Merry Christmas for me. :D
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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by KJ Duke » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:32 pm

Tom Kessenich wrote:The other question for you KJ in the Diamond would be - "Do you want to potentially lose 75K because you passed on a proven superstar without a shred of evidence linking him to a possible suspension and allowed someone to get him at a discount in the first round?"

Just for the sake of discussion. ;)
I wouldn't be thinking "without a shred of evidence". He failed a test which was overturned for legal reasons and a year later he owes a known supplier money. That's at least a shred. Now if I re-word your question in the same spirit ... I see other star players that I can build my team around that project out to a comparable or slightly lower level of performance that could be made up elsewhere with less risk - so among those top players I'd pass. The farther he falls the bigger the potential gap becomes at which point I discover my true risk tolerance.
Last edited by KJ Duke on Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Tom Kessenich » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:35 pm

KJ Duke wrote:
Tom Kessenich wrote:The other question for you KJ in the Diamond would be - "Do you want to potentially lose 75K because you passed on a proven superstar without a shred of evidence linking him to a possible suspension and allowed someone to get him at a discount in the first round?"

Just for the sake of discussion. ;)
I wouldn't be thinking "without a shred of evidence".
Based on the current report I think my statement remains accurate. :)
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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by KJ Duke » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:39 pm

Tom Kessenich wrote:
KJ Duke wrote:
Tom Kessenich wrote:The other question for you KJ in the Diamond would be - "Do you want to potentially lose 75K because you passed on a proven superstar without a shred of evidence linking him to a possible suspension and allowed someone to get him at a discount in the first round?"

Just for the sake of discussion. ;)
I wouldn't be thinking "without a shred of evidence".
Based on the current report I think my statement remains accurate. :)
You're taking his word for it. With as much money as is at stake - if he is both guilty and smart - he could have an entire inventory of pre-determined alibis and defenses at his disposal. The SEC didn't think Bernie Madoff was guilty of anything either for about 20 years. Sometimes red flags, rather than hard evidence, is all we see for awhile.

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Tom Kessenich » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:46 pm

KJ Duke wrote: You're taking his word for it.
Yes I am in large part because his answer is logical and credible and to this point no one has even attempted to refute it. Again, I don't rule out the possibility there may be more out there. But like I said before there's no way he came up with an explanation that couldn't be easily proven. That makes no sense. So I think the fact he put forth his explanation and no one has to this point even attempted to refute it to this point is rather telling.
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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by TOXIC ASSETS » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:58 am

Thought about this one a little more. Braun's excuse seems to be that any $$ he owes is for "consulting fees". Reminds me of a great book I read a long time back called Den Of Thieves. This is about the financial scandals of the 80's -- Ivan Boesky, Michael Milen, etc. One of the ways that these guys hid their dirty dealings was to send out checks for "consulting". Check it out. CONSULTING, Mr. Braun? You can't even make it up.

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Ando » Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:26 pm

I'm telling ya, this Braun thing isn't going to end well.

Article just posted on espn.com that will be featured on Outside the Lines this weekend. You never want to be part of anything and the investigative reporting of something like Outside the Lines.

First glance, it appears ole Brauny had a relationship just a little more deep than "consulting services" with Mr. Bosch.

This thing has Lance, Marion Jones, ARoid, and all of them written all over it. Deny, lie, deny, lie, deny, lie. Say any evidence is coincidental. Then bam - too much to ignore anymore.

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by swampass » Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:49 pm

from rotoworld:



T.J. Quinn and Mike Fish of ESPN.com report that Ryan Braun's name is listed in an additional Biogenesis clinic document that "suggests a closer link" to clinic founder Anthony Bosch than Braun has acknowledged.
Quinn and Fish have a picture of the document, which indicates that Braun owed Bosch $1,500 for a service or product of some kind. Quinn and Fish write that the list "is not definitive proof that Braun either received or used PEDs... but may draw him more squarely into the spotlight as the league investigates the scandal and tries to draw the interest of law enforcement." Braun released a statement earlier this month saying that he used Bosch only as a consultant, and the outfielder said Friday that he would not discuss the matter further.

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Gekko » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:08 pm

if they couldnt touch him last year, they wont touch him this year unless there is a 100% stone cold lock down smoking gun. if such a thing existed, braun made sure it was destroyed last year

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Outlaw » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:14 pm

Miami New Times is saying they have a lot more documents and most likely will release more. MLB also not just investigating that clinic and Miami New times records. They supposedly are gathering other information from other sources. As the Milwaukee journal asked Braun yesterday, Braun's representatives declined a request by the Journal Sentinel to provide corroboration of the consulting relationship with Braun. One has to wonder why he wont clear his name now in the court of public opinion.

One has to think Braun will be doing some Explaining to MLB soon. Interesting that he's still in the top 3 of almost every draft, but there is still 6 weeks to go until the last draft.

From ESPN Today: http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/ ... estigation
MIAMI -- The list was written in April, in the hand of Biogenesis of America clinic founder Anthony Bosch. Among the names is the Milwaukee Brewers' Ryan Braun, and to the right of that name is a figure: $1,500.

That list, a source familiar with Bosch's operation told "Outside the Lines," indicates that those players received performance-enhancing drugs from Bosch, and owed him money. The document, one of dozens obtained by "Outside the Lines," suggests a closer link to Bosch and the now-shuttered clinic he ran in Coral Gables, Fla., than Braun has acknowledged.

Anthony Bosch's past includes a tangle of ties and titles in which he befriended players while tapping the expertise of hormone-therapy doctors, write Mike Fish and T.J. Quinn. Story

The list is not definitive proof that Braun either received or used PEDs -- either would be a suspendable offense under Major League Baseball policy -- but may draw him more squarely into the spotlight as the league investigates the scandal and tries to draw the interest of law enforcement.

The Brewers outfielder was first connected to Bosch in a Yahoo! Sports report last week -- citing a different document -- that did not connect his name to drugs. Braun explained the report by saying he had consulted with Bosch during his successful appeal of a positive drug test a year ago. Why he consulted with Bosch, who is not a physician but presents himself as one, has not been made clear.

Bosch had been identified four years ago as a source for the HCG prescription that led to Manny Ramirez's 50-game suspension. That prescription was written by Bosch's father, Pedro, who is a licensed physician in the Miami area. According to the documents cited by Yahoo! Sports, Bosch sought $20,000 to $30,000 from Braun.

But a source familiar with the documents obtained by "Outside the Lines" said the list with Braun's name, which also includes New York Yankees Alex Rodriguez and Francisco Cervelli and Toronto's Melky Cabrera, was a list of players who received PEDs, and that there is "no other reason to be on that paper."

One of the documents shows plus signs next to the players' names, which are circled for players who paid their fees, a source said. Braun's $1,500 fee is marked as being unpaid. Braun's name appears on another list of player names, dollar amounts and dates but is not included in the listing; rather, his name is at the bottom of the page under a line with "Expenses" written on it.

Martin Singer, a well-known Los Angeles attorney for celebrities, responded to questions posed to Braun's publicist by saying, "My client confirmed last week that there was an alleged claim for money owed to Mr. Bosch because he had been used as a consultant by my client's attorneys in his successful appeal with MLB last year. Several witnesses can corroborate how Mr. Bosch requested over thousands of dollars for his consulting with my client's attorneys last year. My client has no relationship with Tony Bosch, and the only relationship Mr. Bosch had was with my client's attorneys as a consultant."

Singer said if Braun's name appears in the documents it is only because Bosch was trying to get whatever money he could from Braun from the consulting arrangement. "It is clear that this is all false," Singer said. He threatened legal action against ESPN if it aired or published this report. The two attorneys who represented Braun's appeal last year, David Cornwell and Chris Lyons, declined comment.

Braun told reporters in Phoenix on Friday he would not discuss Biogenesis. "I understand why a lot of you guys are probably here but I made a statement last week. I stand behind that statement. I'm not going to address that issue any further. As I stated, I'm happy to cooperate fully with any investigation into this matter."

On a Biogenesis document obtained by "Outside the Lines" that shows Braun's name, Rodriguez is listed as having paid $4,500, and Cervelli as having paid $2,500, with no amount listed next to Cabrera.

Cervelli, speaking to reporters Wednesday at the Yankees' spring training camp in Tampa, said he had consulted with Bosch after a foot injury but received no illegal substances. He said visiting Bosch was "a mistake."

For a year since he successfully overturned a positive test for performance-enhancing drugs, Braun has maintained that he was the victim of a "flawed process" and suggested that a drug specimen collector had motive to doctor the test. Sources told "Outside the Lines" at the time that Braun had failed both an initial screening test, and a more sophisticated follow-up test that can determine whether someone's testosterone was produced by his own body or an outside source.

The sample was collected after a Brewers playoff game Friday, Oct. 2, 2011, but the closest FedEx facility was closed for the weekend. The collector decided to keep the sample stored in his basement for the weekend before shipping it to a laboratory, rather than let it sit unattended at FedEx. Arbitrator Shyam Das agreed with Braun that the collector had not followed proper procedures and cleared Braun, stunning MLB and the anti-doping community. Das was later dismissed by MLB.

MLB officials have been investigating Bosch and his connections to major league players since his name was brought to their attention in August. Investigators have not received cooperation from players or former Biogenesis employees. Without official documents like shipping receipts or sworn testimony about Bosch's business records, MLB would not be able to suspend players under its drug policy.

Bosch told "Outside the Lines" the allegations against him are "bulls---" and "all wrong."

Since last season's all-star game, three MLB players whose names appear in Biogenesis records -- Cabrera, Bartolo Colon and Yasmani Grandal -- have been suspended after testing positive for performance-enhancing substances. Cabrera, in the midst of a breakout season with the San Francisco Giants, walked away with MVP honors in the All-Star Game played last July in Kansas City.

Records indicate that at one point Cabrera was on the Biogenesis books for a $9,000 "monthly fee.''

Clinic notes obtained by "Outside the Lines" reveal Bosch routinely wrote up regimens for players that contained very high concentrations of testosterone, in some cases as much as 20 percent, in creams and lozenges that they were encouraged to apply or take prior to games. Players linked to Bosch who tested positive are believed to have had extremely elevated testosterone levels, with one source saying they were "through the roof.''

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Hells Satans » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:43 pm

Braun is in serious trouble. If the feds bring charges against Bosch at some point, Braun will be a witness in a grand jury proceeding and hopefully won't be stupid enough to perjure himself.

The consulting story is nonsense. His lawyer flat out denied that he had any relationship with Bosch before the Braun appeal even though Braun said "my attorneys, who were previously familiar with Tony Bosch, used him as a consultant." Braun's lawyer said Bosch's contribution was "negligible", yet the records show Braun owed $20-30k. Some non-doctor jabroni in a shopping mall with no bona fides would need to work at least 100 hours on the appeal to run up that type of bill. That's not "negligible."

I don't know that MLB will be able to get him before the season starts or even during the season, but I am as close to certain as can be that Braun will get suspended at some point.

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Edwards Kings » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:10 pm

Even the new news is mainly old news.

"The list was written in April, in the hand of Biogenesis of America clinic founder Anthony Bosch. Among the names is the Milwaukee Brewers' Ryan Braun, and to the right of that name is a figure: $1,500."

A hand written note? C'mon! If Doughboys writes Ann Margret's name on a piece of paper and puts $1,500 down beside, it does not mean she paid him for any special "services"! 8-)
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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by BK METS » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:23 pm

I think the key is, will Bosch or someone from the clinic, testify that Braun actually purchased PEDs from the clinic or will he admit it was just consulting fees. We can all speculate that Braun is definitely getting suspended, but unless they can prove he purchased or used PEDs, there is no way he gets suspended. Associating yourself with shady people and actually doing the act, are two different things, in the eyes of baseball. Obviously, if the fact is that Braun did purchase PEDs from this clinic, then he will be suspended. But, there would be no perjury, if there is no "other side of the story". Maybe I missed it, but in this latest update, we are talking about $1,500 and it does not say directly it was for the purchase of PEDs, but says it was for a "service or product", which can very likely be consultation fees.. This is all grey area, legally.. and very hard to prove wrongdoing on Braun's part unless someone goes out and says he purchased or used PEDs. Just my opinion. I dont know or care if he is innocent or guilty.. just looking at the legal end of it.. (I am not a Braun homer and any relationship or assumption that I am, is purely coincicental)

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Hells Satans » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:55 pm

BK METS wrote:I think the key is, will Bosch or someone from the clinic, testify that Braun actually purchased PEDs from the clinic or will he admit it was just consulting fees. We can all speculate that Braun is definitely getting suspended, but unless they can prove he purchased or used PEDs, there is no way he gets suspended. Associating yourself with shady people and actually doing the act, are two different things, in the eyes of baseball. Obviously, if the fact is that Braun did purchase PEDs from this clinic, then he will be suspended. But, there would be no perjury, if there is no "other side of the story". Maybe I missed it, but in this latest update, we are talking about $1,500 and it does not say directly it was for the purchase of PEDs, but says it was for a "service or product", which can very likely be consultation fees.. This is all grey area, legally.. and very hard to prove wrongdoing on Braun's part unless someone goes out and says he purchased or used PEDs. Just my opinion. I dont know or care if he is innocent or guilty.. just looking at the legal end of it.. (I am not a Braun homer and any relationship or assumption that I am, is purely coincicental)


MLB is going to try to get the USAO in MIami to investigate and bring charges against Bosch. If there is enough evidence there to convince the USAO that they can win, the office likely will take the case. This is a high-profile case that will get alot of face time for some AUSAs.

If that happens, they will send out subpoenas, take some interviews, and ultimately convene a grand jury. The USAO will try to get lesser people at Biogenesis to flip. As part of grand jury proceeding against Bosch, the USAO will need to show that these records reflect payments to the clinic from the players for PEDs. The USAO will also call in the players to testify regarding their own transactions. Braun will be called to testify. So will his lawyers if he sticks to the story about the consulting fees. Bosch, obviously, will not be part of this process. If the Biogenesis employees credibly tell a story about Braun buying PEDs, Braun will need to choose whats story he's going to tell. If he says "I did it" and MLB finds out about it, MLB will suspend him on the spot (this would need to be leaked of course, since it's a grand jury proceeding). If he says "wasn't me", he runs the risk of a potential perjury action if there is enough evidence showing he did.

If the case against Bosch were ever to go trial, Braun would likely be called again, and that wouldn't be under seal (most likely). He would need to stick to the grand jury testimony. If he changed his tune, he could be indicted for perjury for that (i.e., lying in the grand jury).

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by JohnP » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:00 pm

Sounds like he is falling to me at 11 in my online next week.

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Money » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:28 pm

MLB was pissed when he got off last year. They will go the extra mile to get him this year. I draft 9th tomorrow and would be hard pressed to take him. I'm not ruling it out, but it would be tough.
Joe

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Outlaw » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:05 pm

Braun is boxed in to a story line. He has no way out, if his story does not hold up. There is just way too much "evidence" starting to pile up. If you just look at the document that came out in the past day or so. 4 names, Melky Cabera- suspended, Arod- Already admitted and who doesnt think he wasnt using PEDS again, Cervalli - Now says he visited the clinic and Boesh. Then there is Brauns name right next to those guys.... Sure its a piece of paper, but they have REEMs of Documents, someone just doesnt make these amounts of records up for the hell of it. All sorts of specualtion dripping now, that Brauns name is also in a lot more documents.

I'm not touching him in Fantasy until MLB says he is clean.. as KJ said, Ryan Braunstrong

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by whale4evr » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:32 pm

Maybe they were all just trying to find this:
fountain-of-youth1.jpg
fountain-of-youth1.jpg (39.3 KiB) Viewed 6012 times
fountain_of_youth_3sfw.jpg
fountain_of_youth_3sfw.jpg (40.34 KiB) Viewed 6012 times
And get a jump on the 500th anniversary party!

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by BK METS » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:40 pm

I get the fact that this can become a huge investigation. I understand that being tied to this clinic isn't a good thing. But, we aren't talking about something that is going to happen in a month or 2 months or 6 months. If everything you say is going to happen, this won't go to trial for a while and until he either testifies to taking PEDs or not taking PEDs and is found committing perjury, we are talking a while and MLB will not suspend him until they have proof of wrongdoing. If he is available for me at 4 or later, I will not pass on him. He is playing in 2013, guilty or not.

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by KJ Duke » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:56 pm

BK METS wrote:He is playing in 2013, guilty or not. :arrow:


:arrow: Probably. (But I wouldn't book his 30/30 just yet). :?

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:25 pm

BK METS wrote: He is playing in 2013, guilty or not.
Not necessarily.
Shoeless Joe Jackson was actually exonerated in court before being kicked out of baseball.
MLB does not have to wait on a court of law to suspend a player.
Still, we don't have enough information and they probably do not as well. Amazing how a different piece of news can sway public opinion so much.

I have a question though-
Last year with Braun almost certain to get suspended, he was being drafted in the second or third rounds.
If he were to be suspended BEFORE baseball season, where would he go in drafts?
Same place? Lower? Higher?
On my tombstone-
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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Navel Lint » Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:13 pm

DOUGHBOYS wrote:
BK METS wrote: He is playing in 2013, guilty or not.
Not necessarily.
Shoeless Joe Jackson was actually exonerated in court before being kicked out of baseball.
MLB does not have to wait on a court of law to suspend a player.
Sometimes the wheels of justice move slow though.

As you know, Joe Jackson, along with 6 of the other 7 White Sox, played almost the entirety of the 1920 season. It wasn’t until they were suspended by the team itself after giving Grand Jury testimony that they ended up playing their last game. And then of course they were eventually banned from the game by Landis in 1921, almost two years after the ’19 Series.

But I get your point. MLB doesn’t have to wait. I would however be VERY shocked if they took action any time soon on Braun based on the current public information.

That being said, more information continues to drip drip drip out of this leaky faucet and who knows what tomorrow might bring.
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