We had this debate back when Posey was injured and it appears MLB may finally do something to rid baseball of this senseless violence. I recall reading KLaw's chat about a month ago, he's a writer who's opinions I respect as much as any. When asked if he could change 1 play in baseball what would it be, he replied w/ banning home plate collisions.
Buster Olney's blog yesterday opened w/ this issue - http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/n ... -later-mlb
I know my buddies Dough & KJ feel this is just further evidence of the wussification of America, but IMO this is long overdue.
It's NOT what baseball is all about. If you're going to a baseball game in hopes of a collision at the plate you should just call it quits and realize you just miss football and/or hockey. Heck, nowadays you have MMA to fuel your inner caveman.
Or go see a Michael Bay movie - http://www.imdb.com/list/OQ6DDkw4QF8/
HOME PLATE COLLISIONS
-
rockitsauce
- Posts: 1095
- Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:00 pm
HOME PLATE COLLISIONS
Always be closing.
Re: HOME PLATE COLLISIONS
I've got to head out in a moment, Dave, so I don't have time to see your links till later, but I am starting to soften a bit on this issue. I'll have a lengthier post later. (not a threat, just fact 
)
)On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Re: HOME PLATE COLLISIONS
How to make baseball safer:
1. Ban homeplate collisions
2. Have separate bags at all bases so no collisions take place at any bag.
3. Instant replay to replace umps so no one gets hurt during an argument.
4. Make baseball fight a second-degree felony.
5. Replace pitchers with pitching machines that are programmed not to throw into the batters box, eliminating HPB and TJ surgeries.
6. Mandate fluffy cushions on all OF walls.
7. Install netting in front of all spectators.
Man, there are soooooo many things we can do to make this sport safer, I bet I'm missing a lot of stuff. What are they waiting for? If we can accomplish just one thing to start we can get the ball rolling on the entire list ...
1. Ban homeplate collisions
2. Have separate bags at all bases so no collisions take place at any bag.
3. Instant replay to replace umps so no one gets hurt during an argument.
4. Make baseball fight a second-degree felony.
5. Replace pitchers with pitching machines that are programmed not to throw into the batters box, eliminating HPB and TJ surgeries.
6. Mandate fluffy cushions on all OF walls.
7. Install netting in front of all spectators.
Man, there are soooooo many things we can do to make this sport safer, I bet I'm missing a lot of stuff. What are they waiting for? If we can accomplish just one thing to start we can get the ball rolling on the entire list ...
Last edited by KJ Duke on Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
rockitsauce
- Posts: 1095
- Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:00 pm
Re: HOME PLATE COLLISIONS
The Doughboy softening ?!!? (why do I see that lil Pillsbury guy in my head, except in Dan's case he's much bigger........wait a minute -DOUGHBOYS wrote:I've got to head out in a moment, Dave, so I don't have time to see your links till later, but I am starting to soften a bit on this issue. I'll have a lengthier post later. (not a threat, just fact
- DOUGHBOY
- StayPuffMan.jpg (21.13 KiB) Viewed 6010 times
Always be closing.
-
rockitsauce
- Posts: 1095
- Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:00 pm
Re: HOME PLATE COLLISIONS
KJ Duke wrote:How to make baseball safer:
1. Ban homeplate collisions
2. Have separate bags at all bases so no collisions take place at any bag.
3. Instant replay to replace umps so no one gets hurt during an argument.
4. Make baseball fight a second-degree felony.
5. Replace pitchers with pitching machines that are programmed not to throw into the batters box, eliminating HPB and TJ surgeries.
6. Mandate fluffy cushions on all OF walls.
7. Install netting in front of all spectators.
Man, there are soooooo many things we can do to make this sport safer, I bet I'm missing a lot of stuff. What are they waiting for? If we can accomplish just one thing to start we can get the ball rolling on the entire list ...
You're not being sarcastic are you Rage Kage
Some or your "suggestions" are obviously ridiculous, but others have already been implemented to some degree. There IS netting behind homeplate to prevent fans from getting hit by foul balls. Do you really want Grandpa or a little kid getting hit in that manner ? Someone could easily get killed...not saying there should be netting around the entire ballpark, but it's definitely a good idea where it is now.
There IS padding on the OF walls in most stadiums. Why you wouldn't want to protect a player from crashing into the wall I'll never understand...must be a Cubs thing
Fighting, real fighting where punches are thrown does not belong in baseball either. Do they allow that in any other sport besides hockey (and that's really just brawling b/w skating around and playing w/ a puck) ? In the NBA & NFL if you throw a punch you are ejected.
I bet you're a big Lee marvin fan
- Lookin at you.......Duke
- Blonde.jpg (24.23 KiB) Viewed 6000 times
Always be closing.
Re: HOME PLATE COLLISIONS
Ok, Dough joke aside, here's the deal...
Catchers are the ones who started blocking the plate. They blocked the plate because every run meant something back in the day. Offensively, Ty Cobb made every base important and the story was that he would make sure others would see him sharpening his spikes and blah, blah, blah.
When shin guards and masks were introduced, this gave the catcher more protection and thus even more catchers blocked the plate. Now, it had become a catchers mantra, or even a catcher's duty to block the plate.
Ray Fosse, Dave Valle, and Matheny have all taken massive hits and now with more technology and more medical science known, the runner has become the bad guy.
It's a fight the catcher started. and now that he is losing the fight, he wants help.
In that way, I don't feel sorry for catchers at all.
And yes, add this to the list of the wussification of America.
For arguments sake, let's say I side with the catcher. I change the rule and he cannot get torpedoed.
What does the runner do?
If home plate is blocked, does he just give?
Risk injury himself by sliding into shin guards and a tree stump of a catcher?
How much of home plate, if ruled by MLB, does the catcher have to give that runner?
If he gives him half is it enough?
As much as baseball would like to treat home plate like second or third base, they can't. Throws to those bases are taken by infielders who know exactly where they are on the field. These infielders are equipped with gloves designed to take that throw.
The catcher is usually adjusting to a longer throw and angling himself unlike an infielder. He also has to take more care in catching the ball because he has a clunky glove.
Most of the time, he won't know himself how much of home plate is given to the runner.
I said before that I am softening and it may not sound that way. Before I was dead set against any rule change.
Now, if a rule can be found that eliminates the catcher being bowled over AND is fair to the runner, I'd listen.
But, I haven't heard one yet.
Are we going to penalize a catcher for blocking the plate when he really doesn't know he's doing it?
Are there going to be more injuries from not being knocked over by a runner but a runner sliding in 'high' to avoid shin guards and possibly kicking a ball out of the glove?
Will the catcher have to take off his mask to even the collision at home plate?
It just seems too easy to say, 'let's protect the poor catcher' without thinking of the consequences it may bring.
Not to mention three umpires leaving the field to see if a catcher was blocking the plate or not giving him enough of the plate, blah, blah, blah.
Show me a good rule change and I'll listen. Until then, this is the best way to go.
Catchers are the ones who started blocking the plate. They blocked the plate because every run meant something back in the day. Offensively, Ty Cobb made every base important and the story was that he would make sure others would see him sharpening his spikes and blah, blah, blah.
When shin guards and masks were introduced, this gave the catcher more protection and thus even more catchers blocked the plate. Now, it had become a catchers mantra, or even a catcher's duty to block the plate.
Ray Fosse, Dave Valle, and Matheny have all taken massive hits and now with more technology and more medical science known, the runner has become the bad guy.
It's a fight the catcher started. and now that he is losing the fight, he wants help.
In that way, I don't feel sorry for catchers at all.
And yes, add this to the list of the wussification of America.
For arguments sake, let's say I side with the catcher. I change the rule and he cannot get torpedoed.
What does the runner do?
If home plate is blocked, does he just give?
Risk injury himself by sliding into shin guards and a tree stump of a catcher?
How much of home plate, if ruled by MLB, does the catcher have to give that runner?
If he gives him half is it enough?
As much as baseball would like to treat home plate like second or third base, they can't. Throws to those bases are taken by infielders who know exactly where they are on the field. These infielders are equipped with gloves designed to take that throw.
The catcher is usually adjusting to a longer throw and angling himself unlike an infielder. He also has to take more care in catching the ball because he has a clunky glove.
Most of the time, he won't know himself how much of home plate is given to the runner.
I said before that I am softening and it may not sound that way. Before I was dead set against any rule change.
Now, if a rule can be found that eliminates the catcher being bowled over AND is fair to the runner, I'd listen.
But, I haven't heard one yet.
Are we going to penalize a catcher for blocking the plate when he really doesn't know he's doing it?
Are there going to be more injuries from not being knocked over by a runner but a runner sliding in 'high' to avoid shin guards and possibly kicking a ball out of the glove?
Will the catcher have to take off his mask to even the collision at home plate?
It just seems too easy to say, 'let's protect the poor catcher' without thinking of the consequences it may bring.
Not to mention three umpires leaving the field to see if a catcher was blocking the plate or not giving him enough of the plate, blah, blah, blah.
Show me a good rule change and I'll listen. Until then, this is the best way to go.
Last edited by DOUGHBOYS on Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Re: HOME PLATE COLLISIONS
id like to implement the lollipop rule. if you stike out you get a lollipop to suck on so the batter can feel better for himself. you get popcorn for "popping" up as we cant have anyone's feelings hurt. you know, like giving out trophies to the losing team. we should also remove all bases and replace them with piles of feathers. that way there will be no "owies" sliding into bases. furthermore someone should look into replacing astro turf with something softer because man oh man that stuff is hard.
no rule needs to be implemented here. it should be left up to the catcher. if he wants to risk it, then so be it, if he doesnt well the runs will score more easily without injury and the catcher wont get his pretty uniform dirty.
ps nobody shows up to baseball games to watch collisions at home plate so that argument is weak.
no rule needs to be implemented here. it should be left up to the catcher. if he wants to risk it, then so be it, if he doesnt well the runs will score more easily without injury and the catcher wont get his pretty uniform dirty.
ps nobody shows up to baseball games to watch collisions at home plate so that argument is weak.
Re: HOME PLATE COLLISIONS
Boy, I'm glad they didn't put any rules in football where you can't hit a defenseless player. Or you can't touch a QB now because they're defenseless. That would suck since football is so tough...
Swamp is right. The player should get to score because it's the catchers fault he's a sitting duck for somebody running full speed. It's your argument that has no merit.
Swamp is right. The player should get to score because it's the catchers fault he's a sitting duck for somebody running full speed. It's your argument that has no merit.
"My reputation precedes me. Otherwise I'd be late for all my appointments." - Harry Crumb
Re: HOME PLATE COLLISIONS
how many years has baseball been played? how many injuries due to home plate collisions during that time? heck how many collisions happened last year that caused injury? just how many? id venture a guess to say that its a lot less than guys who get hit with pitches and get hurt. so i guess if its up to cobb we can start throwing whiffleballs since we need to protect people. so tell me.. is the last 5 feet to home plate a walk only zone? you know to protect everyone? how on earth do you implement such a rule?
your football analogy isnt correct. they are protecting qb's because generally they are the face of the franchise and people dont go to games to see the matt cassel's of the world play. it has been become so ticky tack that it has become a joke. if you happened to slightly graze a qb's head because the O-lineman has forced you inside or outside its a 15 yard penalty. then you have qb's, my own tom brady is one, who will jump up and down and cry for penalties for things that shouldnt be.
defenseless hits have more to do with the fact that defensive players are using helmets as weapons. case in point the hit on steven ridley last playoff season vs the ravens. he was clearly speared, knocked out cold and fumbled. call on the field? good hit and fumble.
half the problem with these new rules is that they are all open to interpretation and there is nothing that is as textbook as a hold or offsides call.
your football analogy isnt correct. they are protecting qb's because generally they are the face of the franchise and people dont go to games to see the matt cassel's of the world play. it has been become so ticky tack that it has become a joke. if you happened to slightly graze a qb's head because the O-lineman has forced you inside or outside its a 15 yard penalty. then you have qb's, my own tom brady is one, who will jump up and down and cry for penalties for things that shouldnt be.
defenseless hits have more to do with the fact that defensive players are using helmets as weapons. case in point the hit on steven ridley last playoff season vs the ravens. he was clearly speared, knocked out cold and fumbled. call on the field? good hit and fumble.
half the problem with these new rules is that they are all open to interpretation and there is nothing that is as textbook as a hold or offsides call.
Re: HOME PLATE COLLISIONS
If a team owner or manager wants the catcher protected he can simply teach his catcher - and maintain a policy - not to block the plate. Problem solved.
As a former catcher who learned how to (and how not to) block the plate when I was in little league, I resent the need for a rule here. Posey got hurt 2 yrs ago because he set up incorrectly - it's no different that a guy running full speed into a wall, or a 2b being out of position on a double play chance. I don't care how many media types pile on with stories or yap about the need for a rule ... it simply isn't needed. There's your non-sarcastic response!
If there is a legitimate safety rule needed, it would be how to protect pitchers from line drives ... no idea how that could be accomplished, but one line drive to the head of pitcher worries me more than 1,000 home plate collisions.
As a former catcher who learned how to (and how not to) block the plate when I was in little league, I resent the need for a rule here. Posey got hurt 2 yrs ago because he set up incorrectly - it's no different that a guy running full speed into a wall, or a 2b being out of position on a double play chance. I don't care how many media types pile on with stories or yap about the need for a rule ... it simply isn't needed. There's your non-sarcastic response!
If there is a legitimate safety rule needed, it would be how to protect pitchers from line drives ... no idea how that could be accomplished, but one line drive to the head of pitcher worries me more than 1,000 home plate collisions.
Re: HOME PLATE COLLISIONS
You can slide just like you do at every other base. If the ball beats your slow lumbering ass, tough. Players are much bigger and faster now than they were in 1910. I know you feel like no analogy fits because it doesn't fit what you think, that's fine. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I'm not going to go back and forth here, I disagree with you on this. End of story. Every time I hear these excuses about it's always been the same for over 100 years, blah blah blah...do you feel some people shouldn't be allowed to vote because that's how it was for over 100 years? Oh wait, another analogy...never mind.swampass wrote:how many years has baseball been played? how many injuries due to home plate collisions during that time? heck how many collisions happened last year that caused injury? just how many? id venture a guess to say that its a lot less than guys who get hit with pitches and get hurt. so i guess if its up to cobb we can start throwing whiffleballs since we need to protect people. so tell me.. is the last 5 feet to home plate a walk only zone? you know to protect everyone? how on earth do you implement such a rule?
your football analogy isnt correct. they are protecting qb's because generally they are the face of the franchise and people dont go to games to see the matt cassel's of the world play. it has been become so ticky tack that it has become a joke. if you happened to slightly graze a qb's head because the O-lineman has forced you inside or outside its a 15 yard penalty. then you have qb's, my own tom brady is one, who will jump up and down and cry for penalties for things that shouldnt be.
defenseless hits have more to do with the fact that defensive players are using helmets as weapons. case in point the hit on steven ridley last playoff season vs the ravens. he was clearly speared, knocked out cold and fumbled. call on the field? good hit and fumble.
half the problem with these new rules is that they are all open to interpretation and there is nothing that is as textbook as a hold or offsides call.
"My reputation precedes me. Otherwise I'd be late for all my appointments." - Harry Crumb
-
rockitsauce
- Posts: 1095
- Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:00 pm
Re: HOME PLATE COLLISIONS
KJ, if I want an expert opinion on any financial matter I'll be sure to drop you a line my friend, but w/ all due respect I think Posey knows abit more about the art of catching than you. He got hurt that yr b/c that dude (can't even remember the guy's name, some bum desperate to do anything not to get demoted to AAA) launched himself at him. A simple hook slide and he would've been just as safe and nobody gets hurt.KJ Duke wrote:If a team owner or manager wants the catcher protected he can simply teach his catcher - and maintain a policy - not to block the plate. Problem solved.
As a former catcher who learned how to (and how not to) block the plate when I was in little league, I resent the need for a rule here. Posey got hurt 2 yrs ago because he set up incorrectly - it's no different that a guy running full speed into a wall, or a 2b being out of position on a double play chance. I don't care how many media types pile on with stories or yap about the need for a rule ... it simply isn't needed. There's your non-sarcastic response!
If there is a legitimate safety rule needed, it would be how to protect pitchers from line drives ... no idea how that could be accomplished, but one line drive to the head of pitcher worries me more than 1,000 home plate collisions.
Dough, I am not just on the catcher's "side" (and I played C in LL too). If you read Olney's blog he mentions how runners are expected to risk injury themselves by doing exactly what that dude did to Posey. It shouldn't have to be that way. I believe that MLB can come up w/ a solution that is fair to both runner & catcher.
KJ, it isn't just "media types" piling on. Bochy & Matheny were catchers in the show. You may say that they're being critical or over-protective of their C's, I believe their own experience has led them to the conclusion that the home plate collision is an unnecessary one.
Joey, don't even bother w/ swamp-ASS. He's obviously an intellectual heavyweight.
Always be closing.
Re: HOME PLATE COLLISIONS
Scott Cousins!rockitsauce wrote:KJ, if I want an expert opinion on any financial matter I'll be sure to drop you a line my friend, but w/ all due respect I think Posey knows abit more about the art of catching than you. He got hurt that yr b/c that dude (can't even remember the guy's name, some bum desperate to do anything not to get demoted to AAA) launched himself at him. A simple hook slide and he would've been just as safe and nobody gets hurt.KJ Duke wrote:If a team owner or manager wants the catcher protected he can simply teach his catcher - and maintain a policy - not to block the plate. Problem solved.
As a former catcher who learned how to (and how not to) block the plate when I was in little league, I resent the need for a rule here. Posey got hurt 2 yrs ago because he set up incorrectly - it's no different that a guy running full speed into a wall, or a 2b being out of position on a double play chance. I don't care how many media types pile on with stories or yap about the need for a rule ... it simply isn't needed. There's your non-sarcastic response!
If there is a legitimate safety rule needed, it would be how to protect pitchers from line drives ... no idea how that could be accomplished, but one line drive to the head of pitcher worries me more than 1,000 home plate collisions.
Dough, I am not just on the catcher's "side" (and I played C in LL too). If you read Olney's blog he mentions how runners are expected to risk injury themselves by doing exactly what that dude did to Posey. It shouldn't have to be that way. I believe that MLB can come up w/ a solution that is fair to both runner & catcher.
KJ, it isn't just "media types" piling on. Bochy & Matheny were catchers in the show. You may say that they're being critical or over-protective of their C's, I believe their own experience has led them to the conclusion that the home plate collision is an unnecessary one.
Joey, don't even bother w/ swamp-ASS. He's obviously an intellectual heavyweight.
"My reputation precedes me. Otherwise I'd be late for all my appointments." - Harry Crumb
Re: HOME PLATE COLLISIONS
I'm sure he knows the art of catching better than me, but I am 100% positive I know the art of collisions better. From playing baseball, football and basketball full bore every day of my life for many years, to how to survive a motorcycle crash with the correct pavement dive, I think I've the edge on him there.rockitsauce wrote:
KJ, if I want an expert opinion on any financial matter I'll be sure to drop you a line my friend, but w/ all due respect I think Posey knows abit more about the art of catching than you.
-
rockitsauce
- Posts: 1095
- Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:00 pm
Re: HOME PLATE COLLISIONS
I've been on a bicycle as my exclusive means of transportation since 2007 and have only been hit by a car once...and it was a minor scrape. Well, she wrecked my front tire, but I was unhurt. Nearly 6 yrs and ALOT of Perry Van Hooks, I mean SnowbirdsKJ Duke wrote:I'm sure he knows the art of catching better than me, but I am 100% positive I know the art of collisions better. From playing baseball, football and basketball full bore every day of my life for many years, to how to survive a motorcycle crash with the correct pavement dive, I think I've the edge on him there.rockitsauce wrote:
KJ, if I want an expert opinion on any financial matter I'll be sure to drop you a line my friend, but w/ all due respect I think Posey knows abit more about the art of catching than you.
that I've successfully avoided.Now that I've made this post I will promptly get smashed on my way home from work tonight
I hope not I hafta live to compete in my 1st Main Event !Always be closing.
Re: HOME PLATE COLLISIONS
Wasn't that collision during our draft last year?
-
Navel Lint
- Posts: 1723
- Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:00 pm
- Contact:
Re: HOME PLATE COLLISIONS
It would be easy to find examples from either side of this argument to prove a point, but I think the following video goes to what Matheny was saying in the ESPN story.....
Matheny said, "because what I've personally witnessed was enough for me to change my mind. It actually took me a little longer 'till I got to the realization of the risk we're putting these guys in -- and the runner, too. The runner is stuck in a spot sometimes where if he doesn't do it, he feels like he's let his team down.
This 55 sec video with Adam Jones is case in point. He had a sliding lane, but instead veered left and ran into Salty. Yes, he was out. Yes, he would have been out if he slide. ( sometimes you're just going to be out
). No, no one was hurt.
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?conte ... 931941&v=3
But it's totally unnecessary collisions like this that I think MLB would like to get rid off.
However, I'm with Dan.
You can't just outlaw home plate collisions. It's going to become some sort of "interference" rule that the umpires will have to make a judgement call on and I'm not sure that that is the best way to go...........
Matheny said, "because what I've personally witnessed was enough for me to change my mind. It actually took me a little longer 'till I got to the realization of the risk we're putting these guys in -- and the runner, too. The runner is stuck in a spot sometimes where if he doesn't do it, he feels like he's let his team down.
This 55 sec video with Adam Jones is case in point. He had a sliding lane, but instead veered left and ran into Salty. Yes, he was out. Yes, he would have been out if he slide. ( sometimes you're just going to be out
). No, no one was hurt. http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?conte ... 931941&v=3
But it's totally unnecessary collisions like this that I think MLB would like to get rid off.
However, I'm with Dan.
You can't just outlaw home plate collisions. It's going to become some sort of "interference" rule that the umpires will have to make a judgement call on and I'm not sure that that is the best way to go...........
Russel -Navel Lint
"Fans don't boo nobodies"
-Reggie Jackson
"Fans don't boo nobodies"
-Reggie Jackson
Re: HOME PLATE COLLISIONS
KJ Duke wrote:Wasn't that collision during our draft last year?
Yes, it was during the MLBC draft of '12. I remember David telling us the story. A bike, some rain, a muddy hill, and a wreck!
"Luck is the residue of design."
-Branch Rickey
-Branch Rickey
-
rockitsauce
- Posts: 1095
- Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:00 pm
Re: HOME PLATE COLLISIONS
I said I've only been hit by a car once KJ, I didn't say anything about crashing on my bike due to my own dumbassednessKJ Duke wrote:Wasn't that collision during our draft last year?
The time I believe you're thinking of I was rushing back home from work, (to do my best to not hold up the MLBC draft) wet night, cut thru a parking lot veering left, no cars nowhere, my rear tire slid out from under me and I crashed pretty hard. That damn elbow is still messed up, just had an MRI the other day, evidently I have a tear in there....may as well shoot me
My ex-gf also was hit n run in her car around same time, you may be thinking of that too.
It's like my Grandmother used to say, "it's a great life, if you don't weaken".
Always be closing.
-
CALI CARTEL
- Posts: 192
- Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:42 pm
Re: HOME PLATE COLLISIONS
Loved collisions at home plate in Little League (well, age 13 and up), of course I was 5" and 60 lbs bigger than most kids at that age, and I was the one with the catchers gear on.