Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

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Outlaw
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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Outlaw » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:50 pm

Tom Kessenich wrote:
EWeaver wrote:
Tom Kessenich wrote:Again, I'm not saying anyone here is innocent. I'm saying that I need a lot more than the word of a known liar to convince me that they're guilty.
Luckily, in this instance, there is a lot more than simply the word of a known liar.
For MLB's sake there had better be. Of course, if there was definitive proof without Bosch there would've been suspensions handed out by now. The fact nothing has been done and now something might be done based solely on Bosch flipping strongly indicates his word is paramount in this case.
I diasagree, too many players and outside interests involved, too big and too complicated to rush it and as everyone seems to be saying in regards to the players, due process must be observed. MLB has been on to Tony B, the players, all the clinics for almost 3 years and really on top of finding out what happened after the Braun Debacle - almost 18 months now. IMO they have been very methodical in their strategy, from getting the players to agree to a revised Drug Policy just 4 months ago to where we they are now. Would it surprise anyone "if" Cruz told the Rangers 4 months ago he did something he might get suspended for and the Rangers told MLB? Just saying... becuase thats what Ranger Brass appears to be saying now.

Hopefully the truth comes out...in the end

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by NorCalAtlFan » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:52 pm

Outlaw up on Tom 6-0 6-0 5-0, serving for match..................

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by EWeaver » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:57 pm

Tom Kessenich wrote:
EWeaver wrote:
Tom Kessenich wrote:Again, I'm not saying anyone here is innocent. I'm saying that I need a lot more than the word of a known liar to convince me that they're guilty.
Luckily, in this instance, there is a lot more than simply the word of a known liar.
For MLB's sake there had better be. Of course, if there was definitive proof without Bosch there would've been suspensions handed out by now. The fact nothing has been done and now something might be done based solely on Bosch flipping strongly indicates his word is paramount in this case.
Well...definitive proof would be...what? MLB had direct, definitive evidence of Braun cheating. He peed in a cup, he failed a drug test, and not even THAT was enough. Chain of custody issue? Riiiiiiight...not in that instance. Who paid Das more since 1999, MLB or the Union/players?

MLB Management is of course a bad actor. They are rich, entitled, selfish, powerful, and self-interested. They continually act as though they are rich, entitled, selfish, powerful, and self-interested. No surprises there. The story leak is morally wrong, but MLB MGMT is morally bankrupt, so it's par for the course.

I'm also not "against" the players that are "cheating" because, well, as Smokey Yunick pointed out a long time ago (in reference to auto racing), there are two types of racers: cheaters and losers. It seems that the same basically holds true for MLBers.

MLB and the Union should get together and implement blood testing if they actually give a shit about this issue. It would do much more good than holding BS show trials for the public (though it wouldn't give ownership/management the pleasure of grinding their collective axes against Braun and Arod, two dudes who over the years have done A LOT to line MLB's pockets with the money they worship so).

Still love baseball though!

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Tom Kessenich » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:02 pm

NorCalAtlFan wrote:Outlaw up on Tom 6-0 6-0 5-0, serving for match..................
:lol: If you say so. :)

Look, all I'm saying is that there appears to be a rather significant rush to judgment. We've seen it before, twice in fact with Braun and nothing has come of it. Does that mean nothing is going to come of this? Of course not but given the rather significant hurdles MLB has to clear with its star witness I'm not sure this is the slam dunk some insist it's going to be.

Again, I recommend reading HardballTalk.com's columns the last two days. They have done an excellent job in my opinion of laying out rather extensively the issues that are at play here and the potential obstacles that are in MLB's path as they pursue this course of action. Dismiss my opinions all you want but I'm not the only one seeing some of these things. Ken Rosenthal is another person who wrote a column Tuesday night which was almost word-for-word verbatim of what I was Tweeting when I first saw the ESPN report.
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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Outlaw » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:04 pm

NorCalAtlFan wrote:Outlaw up on Tom 6-0 6-0 5-0, serving for match..................
I love Tennis, I was at both the Conners - Krickstien and Paul Haarhuis matches in 1990....now that was some fun times...couldnt get into the semis though against Courier... Fav players now are Roger, Nadal and Serena...guess I'm a front runner... How is it they never seem to get pulled obliques, tennis elbow, quad and hammy pulls... hmmm

Fantasy Tennis, I guess not...

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Cobb » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:09 pm

Wow, take a breath Outlaw...nobody likes to read a book on here. Also, please stop lumping Pete Rose into this. I know everybody thinks he's a horrible ex-player, but his issues have been debated over & over again. His gambling problem has nothing to do with this.

Also, don't bother arguing with Tom on this subject. Unless Braun admitted it himself Tom will never be able to see through his homer lense.

Everybody else knows he's a lying, cheating scumbag...

But I will say that all of this needs to play out. Relying on any testimony of a shady cat like Tony B isn't the answer.
"My reputation precedes me. Otherwise I'd be late for all my appointments." - Harry Crumb

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Tom Kessenich » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:21 pm

Cobb wrote: Also, don't bother arguing with Tom on this subject. Unless Braun admitted it himself Tom will never be able to see through his homer lense.
Please. Nothing could be further from the truth. Yes I hope this isn't true as a Brewers fan but I've also made it clear that if Braun is guilty he deserves to be punished. The points I've raised aren't homer-related. They are all legitimate points about this process. I'm not the only one making these points either. Plenty of respected baseball writers are saying the exact same things. I suppose in your mind they're all just Braun/Brewers homers too.
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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Outlaw » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:21 pm

Tom Kessenich wrote:
NorCalAtlFan wrote:Outlaw up on Tom 6-0 6-0 5-0, serving for match..................
:lol: If you say so. :)

Look, all I'm saying is that there appears to be a rather significant rush to judgment. We've seen it before, twice in fact with Braun and nothing has come of it. Does that mean nothing is going to come of this? Of course not but given the rather significant hurdles MLB has to clear with its star witness I'm not sure this is the slam dunk some insist it's going to be.

Again, I recommend reading HardballTalk.com's columns the last two days. They have done an excellent job in my opinion of laying out rather extensively the issues that are at play here and the potential obstacles that are in MLB's path as they pursue this course of action. Dismiss my opinions all you want but I'm not the only one seeing some of these things. Ken Rosenthal is another person who wrote a column Tuesday night which was almost word-for-word verbatim of what I was Tweeting when I first saw the ESPN report.

Again what player has ever been found to have been innocent definatively after being accused, name one? Clemens- who knows, Jury is still out on Braun...He's possibly more like the soon to be second coming of Lance Armstrong, I personaly see it in his eyes through the boob tube. Even Ken Caminiti denied his steroid use for a while and the "stuff" and Coke cost him his life, how soon we all forget or would rather not talk about the ugly side of the game we all love. Theres a great book, "Never to be Lied too again" written by an FBI agent... worthwhile reading on what to look for in people that might or one suspects might be lying.

Rosenthal, he is a schill for the players, always has been... hes dead meet if he gets percieved as anything other than player friendly... Guys like him that close to the game, they have got stay nuetral until shit really happens.

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Tom Kessenich » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:23 pm

Ahhh so anyone who sides with MLB is clearly in the right and anyone who offers up legitimate criticisms and questions about this process is just a schill, a homer or has no legitimate leg to stand on regardless of how factually correct their statements prove to be.

Got it. That's good to know. :)
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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Outlaw » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:31 pm

Cobb wrote:Wow, take a breath Outlaw...nobody likes to read a book on here. Also, please stop lumping Pete Rose into this. I know everybody thinks he's a horrible ex-player, but his issues have been debated over & over again. His gambling problem has nothing to do with this.

Also, don't bother arguing with Tom on this subject. Unless Braun admitted it himself Tom will never be able to see through his homer lense.

Everybody else knows he's a lying, cheating scumbag...

But I will say that all of this needs to play out. Relying on any testimony of a shady cat like Tony B isn't the answer.

I think Pete payed his price and dues and should be in Hall for what he did on the playing field. The point is a lot of people will lie until they can't do it anymore. Pete finally told the truth, so did McGwire and many others, so did Armstrong -at least some of it, the part that he did dope for years. I also think Joe Jackson should be in the Hall, out of all those Black sox, his case is the weakest as to his involvement. I think even Braun should keep his career if he tells the truth, even Aroids, all of them , if they tell the truth and help rid the game of this stuff. I am a firm believer in second chances for non crimminal stuff/ white crime/ no victim stuff.

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Outlaw » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:37 pm

Tom Kessenich wrote:Ahhh so anyone who sides with MLB is clearly in the right and anyone who offers up legitimate criticisms and questions about this process is just a schill, a homer or has no legitimate leg to stand on regardless of how factually correct their statements prove to be.

Got it. That's good to know. :)

People here are saying you arer a homer, thats not what I think. I think you like to see the good and want to see all the proof first, which is fine. You think I'm a MLB sider, Im not, to them its about money, but right now its their game, ball, glove and bat. I'm for all the clean players that want the game cleaned up and the kids than I am for the rich farts who own all these teams and couldnt throw a baseball fifty feet faster then 10mph. I like to also think that finally some in MLB want to clean the mess up.

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Tom Kessenich » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:40 pm

I'm all for a clean game too. Once again I'll repeat that and say that all I'm asking for is more proof than the word of a known liar. If MLB has that proof and it's irrefutable that's all I need to be convinced. But I'd rather let the process play itself out and not rush to judgment. Not sure how that makes me a homer but I've been called worse. :D
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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by knuckleheads » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:40 pm

Leaks from the authoritative party in an investigation are just as unethical as using steroids as a baseball player. MLB so often comes across as amateur hour.

If the NFL Executives are Exxon Mobil, then MLB is Mac's Quik Shop.

I don't understand why MLB tries so hard to injure it's brand. If you have evidence, suspend the player. If you don't, then don't gossip about how inept your investigations have been.

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Tom Kessenich » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:51 pm

knuckleheads wrote: I don't understand why MLB tries so hard to injure it's brand. If you have evidence, suspend the player. If you don't, then don't gossip about how inept your investigations have been.
Bingo.
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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Outlaw » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:40 am

The walls are starting to close in on the Roid Boys. Like I have been saying for some time, its just not Tony B. Tony B will be corroborating it all and obviously adding more and identifying more names. Speculations is there are 2 more huge names that will come out. They are going to get all these guys for lying, buying and dealing with these people and clinics. The new agreement in February allows for all these players to get suspended for this type of behavior. There is also the criminal aspect that these players will have to consider. It is illegal to buy, use and distribute these drugs. Will the players ask for MLB's help on the criminal side if they cooperate, possibly. MLB has been talking to the Feds and State people all along and its not unreasonable that Tony B and others will get some protection on the criminal side. There is some speculation that some players may try and claim Bosch presented himself as Doctor and they thought they were not doing anything illegal. That washes possibly on the criminal side, but not with MLB in terms of using PEDS. There are also whispers of lifetime bans might be on the table if some players like Melky and Colon don't cooperate or have found to have lied further.

Also as has been discussed previously, there are numerous people that have been cooperating for quite some time. Not everyone will end up being a liar or dirtbag as some have said. Even if people think Tony B has creditability problems, so do the players when and if it's proved they dealt with him. Selig's small statement yesterday at the draft makes it seem he feels confident MLB is in the right on this matter and probably has the Unions cooperation, as they have been seeing all the evidence right along.

Comparing this unfortunate mess to single cases like Clemens, Bonds, Braun is different. This has at least 50, if not more people involved on both sides, from players, workers, agents, advisors, lawyers, family members, other companies, substantial money and there is no way everyone is going lie, not to mention the Hard proof that appears to exist. It's not Tony B's word against the word of 25 players. MLB has been talking to Bosch for weeks already, they already know most of what they need to know from him, that's why all the subpoenas have been issued for weeks now and are still being issued. It's also not just Tony B who is singing, it's also his partners Carlos Acevedo, Ricardo Martinez, Marcelo Albir and Paulo da Silveira who also were named in lawsuits and are cooperating.

The ESPN story from 2 days ago was really nothign new, they just put together what has been going on the past 2 months and almost all the information in thier report had already been out there. Its amazing what you can find out when lawsuits are filed.

Don't forget the pictures either, it might be kind of hard for players to say they never dealt with Tony B or only met him in the past year or two when pictures exist, some from years ago. Once a few players admit and cooperate the rest will fall like dominoes. It could be the suspensions come over a period of time, but they do appear to be coming, and soon most likely.

Nice article today from Frank Thomas on his take on the current mess and how some of the living HOF players feel: http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/ ... fame-entry

As for Fantasy, I post this information for info purposes only and it's nothing that is not reported and I dont pretend at all to say any or all of it is true, its just what we have in front of us. Everyone can form thier own opinions on whether to use it, read it, ignore it, see how it might affect thier fantasy team. I believe its relevant, because of the scope and possible impact. This is not some small story or problem and in many ways its a shame it even exists. As Tom said, thier will be good days and bad days for both the players and MLB the next few weeks.

Bosch meeting today:

Friday’s meeting, in the works for weeks, is believed to include Bosch and his lawyer, Ribero-Ayala, as well as MLB executive vice president Rob Manfred, MLB department of investigations senior vice president Dan Mullin and other baseball investigators. MLB attorneys and lawyers from MLB’s outside counsel, Proskauer Rose, are also expected to attend, as well as a court stenographer.

MLB officials have worked for weeks to secure Bosch’s cooperation, including long sessions this week with his attorney, as they move toward suspensions of players they believe were involved with Bosch and Biogenesis.
MLB is in possession of documents that came from Bosch’s clinic, having purchased them after the publication in January of a story in the New Times citing documents and notebooks belonging to Bosch that detailed drug regimens and schedules with players’ names next to them.


===========================================================
NEW YORK (AP) - Major League Baseball's lawyers issued subpoenas to Federal Express, AT&T Mobility and T-Mobile USA in an attempt to gain records for its investigation of players suspected of using performance-enhancing drugs.

The subpoenas were issued May 23, according to a civil case file in Florida's Circuit Court for Miami-Dade County, where MLB sued Biogenesis of America, anti-aging clinic head Anthony Bosch and five others in March.

MLB asked Federal Express to turn over shipment records for Biogenesis, Bosch, the other defendants and a long list of individuals who appeared to be affiliated with Bosch.

MLB asked the phone companies for call records, texts and subscriber info for the phones of Juan Carlos Nunez, an associate of outfielder Melky Cabrera who was banned from big league clubhouses last year, and Porter Fischer, who was affiliated with the now-closed clinic.

In addition, a subpoena was issued for Biogenesis and related entities in March, seeking records involving major leaguers and 70 banned substances. No players were mentioned by name.

MLB hopes Bosch will provide information implicating players in the use of banned performance-enhancing drugs, and Bosch agreed this week to cooperate. Because any discipline could be challenged by the players' association in grievances before an arbitrator, MLB likely would want records to corroborate any testimony.

There was no indication in the files whether the companies planned to challenge the subpoenas.

"FedEx complies with all valid subpoenas, and we are unable to comment further,'' company spokesman Scott Fiedler said.

Said AT&T spokesman Marty Richter: "We respond to all lawfully issued subpoenas.''

T-Mobile spokeswoman Anne Marshall said the company is looking into the request and has no comment.

MLB opened its latest drug investigation following a Miami New Times report about Biogenesis in January. Alex Rodriguez, Ryan Braun and Cabrera are among the players whose names appeared in Biogenesis documents, according to various media reports. All have denied any wrongdoing.

Newsday reports Major League Baseball’s investigation into players using illegal performance-enhancing drugs through the former Biogenesis clinic has accumulated testimony and evidence from many witnesses.

The report follows news that the anti-aging clinic’s founder, Anthony Bosch, has agreed to cooperate and testify in MLB’s probe. Bosch’s reliability as a witness has been brought into question.

MCCANN: MLB’s deal with Biogenesis director raises many questions

The report also says MLB won’t rely on testing results and intends to significantly punish players for lying to investigators.
=========================================================
From Newsday:

According to the source, interviews with “tons” of people will help frame the basis of MLB’s investigation. [Alex] Rodriguez is among those scheduled to be interviewed by MLB as part of the next phase of the investigation.

What the players say to MLB investigators could determine what, if any, discipline they may face.

According to the source, if players are found to have lied to investigators, that could result in a more significant penalty.

It appears that much of MLB’s case will rest on what is called a non-analytical positive, meaning evidence other than a blood or urine test to detect banned substances.

The source said that while a positive test would be beneficial to investigators, the lack of a test would not necessarily clear a player.

Major League Baseball has "tons" of witnesses who will help frame the basis of their investigation into the South Florida anti-aging clinic Biogenesis and performance-enhancing drugs in the region, reports Stephen Marcus of Newsday.

It's unclear if the witnesses are former Biogenesis employees or people who would have more damning information, such as those who allegedly supplied PEDs to players directly. Former Biogenesis chief Anthony Bosch agreed to cooperate with MLB's investigation recently.

Richard McLaren, an arbitrator who has assisted MLB with previous PED issues, believes the league will be able to build a strong case despite the lack of failed drug tests. The Joint Drug Agreement allows for discipline bases on "non-analytical positives."

"You want to have as much corroborative evidence as you can find," [McLaren] said. "So to the extent that there were employees, receptionists or whatever at the clinic who might have knowledge of what's going on, then you want them to testify, verify, corroborate someone else's testimony, like Bosch.

"So they would certainly be looking to obtain that type of information, and I would suspect they have some of that kind of information available to them and are prepared to call that at arbitration."

At Thursday’s MLB draft in Secaucus, N.J., Selig declined comment on A-Rod’s statement or the investigation, but when asked about the current MLB drug agreement and the strides baseball has made in drug testing, the commissioner said: “I don’t want to comment on that except that I’ve said that I’m proud of our agreement. I’m proud of the fact we have the toughest drug testing program and you know what? This proves it.”

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Tom Kessenich » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:47 am

Very good article in my opinion on Grantland which lays out many of the problems with how MLB is handling this situation. I don't agree with every point but most of them are spot on in my opinion. One excerpt below the final paragraphs being quite critical and not getting near enough discussion:

Overall, it appears that this investigation is an overzealous reaction to all that has happened before. Fifteen, 20 years ago, the league and mainstream media were both content to let players smash home runs and fire 97-mph fastballs while said players consumed performance-enhancing substances; the league hadn't properly codified which substances were allowed and which ones were not, while the media wrote fawning profiles of players who were later found to have used. No one likes to get duped, especially publicly. So we got an onslaught of hysterical articles slamming the league and its players for the spread of PED use. And now we have a league determined to beat back any criticism of its policies, even if it means suspending minor leaguers with flimsy evidence because they can't defend themselves, firing arbitrators for making honest decisions with which the league didn't agree, and building cases based largely on the testimony of a broke alleged drug dealer.

All of this reads like a man who seems determined to change his legacy from being the commissioner under whom everybody took steroids to the commissioner who cleaned up baseball. Which would be ironic, considering that Bud Selig's accomplishments actually look pretty damn good in other areas, all things considered. Baseball's total revenues are expected to hit $9 billion next year. We've seen a gigantic boom in franchise fees and TV revenue, with many owners also securing sweetheart deals from local governments for pretty, new stadiums (a morally distasteful tack, maybe, but one that certainly benefits the sport's financial health). Baseball has parity, it has exciting, new superstars swimming into our lives seemingly every other day, and it has fans who are supporting all of it. But instead of talking about all the great baseball being played on the field, we're heading back to more public hand-wringing over what's happening off it — not necessarily with just cause.

What's the worst-case scenario here?

Other than trampling on due process and casting a stain on the game? The answer could be an end to 20-plus years of labor peace.

The league and the players' association might disagree a bit here or there on some solvable issues. But if the union believes MLB is using shady means to railroad some of its most prominent members, things could get ugly. The last time baseball had a labor stoppage was also the worst such instance in the sport's history. In 1994, a player strike triggered by the unwillingness of high-revenue teams to share money with their lower-revenue counterparts led to the cancellation of the final seven weeks of the regular season, as well as the playoffs and the World Series — the first time in 90 years that baseball didn't stage its Fall Classic. At a time of labor peace and unprecedented wealth, no one wants to think about the possibility of another strike, let alone the threat of missed games — let alone postseason games. But if MLB continues down this path, the chance of that happening could go from essentially zero to "not impossible."

Assuming he keeps his word this time, Selig is set to retire after the 2014 season. The current collective bargaining agreement is due to expire two years after that. Even if all the currently accused players do get nailed, baseball, like every other sport, will likely still have some players continue to use PEDs — thus nullifying the dream of a commissioner who sought to stamp out steroids. Instead, Selig's final legacy could be that of a commissioner who caused a labor war that never should have happened, thus thrusting the sport's well-being into doubt for no good reason.

Well, unless you think skinning Ryan Braun's hide makes it all worthwhile.

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-trian ... eroid-case
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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Outlaw » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:14 am

Tom Kessenich wrote:Very good article in my opinion on Grantland which lays out many of the problems with how MLB is handling this situation. I don't agree with every point but most of them are spot on in my opinion. One excerpt below the final paragraphs being quite critical and not getting near enough discussion:

Overall, it appears that this investigation is an overzealous reaction to all that has happened before. Fifteen, 20 years ago, the league and mainstream media were both content to let players smash home runs and fire 97-mph fastballs while said players consumed performance-enhancing substances; the league hadn't properly codified which substances were allowed and which ones were not, while the media wrote fawning profiles of players who were later found to have used. No one likes to get duped, especially publicly. So we got an onslaught of hysterical articles slamming the league and its players for the spread of PED use. And now we have a league determined to beat back any criticism of its policies, even if it means suspending minor leaguers with flimsy evidence because they can't defend themselves, firing arbitrators for making honest decisions with which the league didn't agree, and building cases based largely on the testimony of a broke alleged drug dealer.

All of this reads like a man who seems determined to change his legacy from being the commissioner under whom everybody took steroids to the commissioner who cleaned up baseball. Which would be ironic, considering that Bud Selig's accomplishments actually look pretty damn good in other areas, all things considered. Baseball's total revenues are expected to hit $9 billion next year. We've seen a gigantic boom in franchise fees and TV revenue, with many owners also securing sweetheart deals from local governments for pretty, new stadiums (a morally distasteful tack, maybe, but one that certainly benefits the sport's financial health). Baseball has parity, it has exciting, new superstars swimming into our lives seemingly every other day, and it has fans who are supporting all of it. But instead of talking about all the great baseball being played on the field, we're heading back to more public hand-wringing over what's happening off it — not necessarily with just cause.

What's the worst-case scenario here?

Other than trampling on due process and casting a stain on the game? The answer could be an end to 20-plus years of labor peace.

The league and the players' association might disagree a bit here or there on some solvable issues. But if the union believes MLB is using shady means to railroad some of its most prominent members, things could get ugly. The last time baseball had a labor stoppage was also the worst such instance in the sport's history. In 1994, a player strike triggered by the unwillingness of high-revenue teams to share money with their lower-revenue counterparts led to the cancellation of the final seven weeks of the regular season, as well as the playoffs and the World Series — the first time in 90 years that baseball didn't stage its Fall Classic. At a time of labor peace and unprecedented wealth, no one wants to think about the possibility of another strike, let alone the threat of missed games — let alone postseason games. But if MLB continues down this path, the chance of that happening could go from essentially zero to "not impossible."

Assuming he keeps his word this time, Selig is set to retire after the 2014 season. The current collective bargaining agreement is due to expire two years after that. Even if all the currently accused players do get nailed, baseball, like every other sport, will likely still have some players continue to use PEDs — thus nullifying the dream of a commissioner who sought to stamp out steroids. Instead, Selig's final legacy could be that of a commissioner who caused a labor war that never should have happened, thus thrusting the sport's well-being into doubt for no good reason.

Well, unless you think skinning Ryan Braun's hide makes it all worthwhile.

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-trian ... eroid-case

some things to consider, 98% of the payers (which are the union) want it cleaned up. The concerns the author raises don't address IF MLB was to do nothing what would that achieve. What does he propose in determining how to deal with it? the past is the past and it appears obviuos not much was solved if most of this is true.
I agree with no trampling of rights, but the questions are fairly simple by the players involved to answer. the players and the Union, along with MLB were the ones who agreed to allow this type of due procees this past February with their revised Joint Drug Program.

Do You know Tony B?
Have you ever met with him or any clinic?
Have you ever used a PED?
Have you ever purchased any PED from him or any clinic?
Why is your name on all these documents and computer records?
Have you ever had anything shipped to you from any doctor or clinic?
Probably another 10 or 20 very simple and easy questions to answer also.

If the player tells the truth and answers them all in a way that shows he is'nt involved he is home free with everyone and MLB.


some of his, the game will suffer long term thoughts I think are doom and gloom theories. The Fans, MLB, almost all players, the HOF players all want it solved. When this is over, if it goes down as a big scandal and the players were doing what has been said they may have been doing, Selig will be leaving office with even tougher penalties in place like lifetime ban paremeters and such. It is very true there will always be some still trying, but a couple here and there will not be like the close to 300 who have been caught in the past 3 years, not counting these players. Its not justhe MLB players, its the minor ones too, that is where they learn it.

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Tom Kessenich » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:32 am

98% of the players may want the game cleaned up but there was a story this week which said many players view this investigation as a witch hunt. So clearly not everyone in the union agrees with how this is being handled and that goes to my primary point - this must be done properly if it's going to have legitimate value. The issue here isn't whether the game should be cleaned up. I think most would stipulate that it should be. The issue is the process by which MLB arrives at whatever conclusion it will come to. The last thing this sport and its fans need is for the league and players union going to war yet again over something which could have been handled far more intelligently.
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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Outlaw » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:18 pm

Tom Kessenich wrote:98% of the players may want the game cleaned up but there was a story this week which said many players view this investigation as a witch hunt. So clearly not everyone in the union agrees with how this is being handled and that goes to my primary point - this must be done properly if it's going to have legitimate value. The issue here isn't whether the game should be cleaned up. I think most would stipulate that it should be. The issue is the process by which MLB arrives at whatever conclusion it will come to. The last thing this sport and its fans need is for the league and players union going to war yet again over something which could have been handled far more intelligently.
Which players? sure maybe a few might be calling it a witch hunt, but I would suspect they have thier own reasons for doing so. There are dozens of players who have publicly come out the past few months just like David Hernandez did yesterday. Who do you think pressured the union to amend and sign the agreement in February? There will be no war by the union, the players or the fans no matter how this turns out. That type of talk by people, bloggers, reporters is misguided. The process is clear, the union agrees with it and the signals they are sending out on behalf of the players says so (see Schill Buster Onley below). If the players did nothing wrong MLB and the Union will state the new agreement worked.

Too many people believe this is the Union of yester year, that will go to war, ignore the drug problem and will fight tooth and nail to defend the players. The times have changed. Nothing the union has said in the past year has said they will fight hard and drag things out, nothing. They tap dance a little around making sure the evidence exists and its fair, but that's about it. The Union is the current players and they have made it clear they want the cheaters and PEDS users buried, suspended and even banned if possible. Even During Braun's appeal, it was Braun's legal team who did the work. The Union was and has been silent on Braun for the most part during all of this.

If a player like Braun wants to go to legal war, he better consider how many of his fellow players and the union will help him. The Union will do what they legally have to do for him or any player, but not much more. He will be on his own IMO. As Onley said, many players have told him "privately" they wanted Braun to burn because they know the truth. The Best thing Braun could for himself and all of Baseball is to come clean and come clean now. His supporters are a near zero these days, including all the players he takes the field with.


By Nick Piecoro azcentral sports Thu Jun 6, 2013 9:31 PM
ST. LOUIS -- Diamondbacks reliever David Hernandez is glad to see Major League Baseball pursing stiff penalties for the players connected to a Miami-area clinic that allegedly supplied performance-enhancing drugs.

Count Hernandez among those who would like to see stiffer penalties for those caught doping. He said he wants the stiffest ban possible for first-time offenders.

“You want my opinion?” Hernandez said. “I think you should be out of baseball. It sounds harsh but at the end of the day you’re making it harder on somebody else who is trying to make it in the game. You’re essentially ending somebody else’s career if you’re cheating and putting up numbers. You should be done.”

Hernandez said that though there might not be positive test results for the players connected to Biogenesis of America clinic, he’s happy to see the commissioner’s office pushing forward in seeking suspensions for about 20 players connected, including Alex Rodriguez and Ryan Braun.

“It’s not fair to all of us who have played the game the right way,” he said. “I think there should be stiffer penalties from the get-go. Apparently 50 games isn’t enough to stop players from cheating. A lot of us feel that way around here. Basically you’re cheating us, the players. Not only the fans, but us, the union.”



ESPN baseball reporter Buster Olney joined Mut & Merloni on Wednesday to discuss the recent break that Biogenesis of America owner Tony Bosch has reached an agreement with Major League Baseball to talk about allegedly sold performance enhancing drugs to prominent players in the league.

Olney said that one smart thing MLB did to convince Bosch to talk about his sales was file a civil suit against him back in March. The suit gave MLB the leverage it needed due to other legal and financial issues surrounding Bosch.

“In general the reaction in the legal world was that it was a frivolous lawsuit,” Olney said. “Well, you know what — I totally thought at the time was it was a brilliant move because what that enabled them to do was start to — if they got the go-ahead to go forward with the case it allowed them to come in and depose people and put pressure and now they file a lawsuit against Bosch and Bosch has to pay a lawyer and according to the reporting done by [ESPN reporters] Pedro [Gomez] and T.J. [Quinn], Bosch is under some financial strain because he has got some other pending legal issues as well.

“I don’t know if Major League Baseball is paying him, but that is certainly one thing they could do if they choose to and say, ‘Look, we want to have all of the information possible, you’ve got some legal issues, we will give you a consultant fee.’ I don’t think that is outside the realm of possibility. So he may be looking for relief from legal issues, he may be looking for literal financial relief and he could be getting it from Major League Baseball.”

Major names in baseball such as Alex Rodriguez, Ryan Braun and Melky Cabrera were named as potential players to be suspended for being connected to Bosch’s sale of performance enhancing drugs. Olney pointed out that of the more than a dozen players who are tied to Biogenesis, Braun could have the worst fallout from the report.

“If he gets suspended, if this is proven, to me, he becomes the Lance Armstrong of baseball,” Olney said. “Because we have heard a lot of players, we heard about players that have used performance-enhancing drugs and we have heard a lot about players that have used performance-enhancing drugs and denied it, but the way that he went after the collector if in fact he did use, that was unconscionable. He was trying to ruin this person — take down his reputation if in fact he did this. I think he has got a lot more at stake than just a mere suspension because of how he handled that day when he won his appeal and he came out aggressively and talked about suspicions with the collector.

“You go back and watch that press conference he did in February 2012 when he won his appeal and it makes you sick to your stomach thinking, you know what? If he knew all along he was using it and he said that stuff, it was appalling.”


While a connection with Bosch’s clinic and performance enhancing drugs will tarnish the reputation of a player like Braun, Olney said this investigation is a good moment for MLB.

“I know some people that I work with have said this is a black eye for baseball,” Olney said. “Personally, I think it is a good moment for baseball because it shows how vigilant and diligent and aggressive they are being. I think we are going to see in the players’ reaction which I am hearing privately from guys — they want cheaters to go down. The change in the culture from 10-15 years ago is dramatic. You have guys now and after Ryan Braun got off and won his appeal, they wanted him to go down. They want him to go down now. I think that in general, that is sort of where the sport is on this. They are trying to deal with a problem and this is a sign that they are dealing with it and that they can.”

Following are more highlights from the conversation. To hear the interview, go to the Mut & Merloni audio on demand page. For more Red Sox news, visit the team page at weei.com/redsox.

On what comes next in the investigation: “The big question now is going to be what other corroborating information can Tony Bosch provide for Major League Baseball to go along with his word. And you do also wonder whether or not there are going to potentially be other people who will now fall like dominoes because Tony Bosch goes — ‘OK, yeah, I’ll go along with it, too.’ So let’s say Tony Bosch injected Player X in his apartment or in a hotel room before a game and his attendant John Doe was there maybe that person comes in. That’s the whole question now. Whether or not they can get enough information to back what he is going to tell them in his testimony.”

On the timeline of this investigation: “Well, I think it depends on the nature of the information that they get from Bosch. If all they have is testimony, I think it could be a lengthy process. They are going to have develop other information. On the other hand, if he walks in with a treasure trove and sits down and says, ‘Here’s all of my information. And oh, yeah, here’s Ryan Braun’s phone number. And here are the text messages from him. And here is Alex Rodriguez’s and here are the text messages from him. And can describe the inside of Alex Rodriguez’s house and I can tell you exactly what dates and the security — you know all of those things. If they can do that then I think immediately they could then turn to their player interviews and call in a Ryan Braun and call in an Alex Rodriguez and say this is the information we have, dispute it or not. Then if they do issue suspensions then of course it goes into the appeals process. Really we are probably looking at weeks or months before we get an actual resolution in this whole issue. The speed of it totally depends on the type of information he gives them.”

On Melky Cabrera’s name being linked to Bosch: “I think that Melky Cabrera’s case more than any other I think answers the question, ‘Does crime pay in baseball?’ Are you kidding? Absolutely. He got $6 million in salary last year with the Giants, he lost 50 games of that because of his suspension, he signed a two-year $16 million deal with the Toronto Blue Jays this past offseason. Even if he gets a 100-game suspension, he is going to walk away from this period with $15.8 million dollars. I think that is part of the reason why the culture of the players is changing so much and you’re hearing more and more and more of players saying, ‘You know what? We have got to eliminate that incentive.’ Because it is clear now that there is a lot of incentive to cheat.

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Tom Kessenich » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:24 pm

I think it's extremely premature to say there will be no concerns from the union. If MLB does attempt to levy 100-game suspensions on ARod and Braun I would expect a vigorous challenge from the union in addition to the legal challenges they're almost certainly going to face from ARod (who has already hired a lawyer who specializes in player rights issues) and Braun. I'd be shocked if the union sat back and did nothing if 100-game suspensions are handed out. They are arguably the most powerful union in the world. I would expect them to fight and fight hard.
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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Outlaw » Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:08 pm

Tom Kessenich wrote:I think it's extremely premature to say there will be no concerns from the union. If MLB does attempt to levy 100-game suspensions on ARod and Braun I would expect a vigorous challenge from the union in addition to the legal challenges they're almost certainly going to face from ARod (who has already hired a lawyer who specializes in player rights issues) and Braun. I'd be shocked if the union sat back and did nothing if 100-game suspensions are handed out. They are arguably the most powerful union in the world. I would expect them to fight and fight hard.
I'm Not saying no concerns by the Union, as they need ensure its all fair and according to the agreement. Arod and Braun are going to accept 50 games each IMO, unless the evidence is so damaging, then they will be in much bigger hot water...facing much bigger problems. Do not underestimate MLB turning all they have over to the FEDS and States for criminal prosecution also, should the players decide to fight. The US attorney I believe is ready to pounce if need be on all the characters involved. The way this is all going it will be one person who decides the penalty and that is Selig. He seems pretty cock sure it appears MLB is doing the right thing. Rememebr too, in 2009 when Arod came clean, Selig was the one who elected not to suspend him. I'm sure he regrets that. Also if any of the potential dozens of players said it was Arod and/or Bruan or any other player who steered them to these Clinics and creeps like Tony B, IMO Selig with ban them for life.

MLB might be satisfied if they and any player takes the 50 games, because at that point they will have acted on what they were presented with over the past 3 years. They will then move on to stiffer penalties and every player born or unborn will now know it doesn't take a failed test to get punished. It will be very hard in the future, even if players can beat tests, for them to get off, because it all it will take is the electronic records that will exist everywhere. The reason for the new rules was to be able to punish the cheaters without a failed test, that was the end game of the agreement. Screw failed tests, we'll use the buying and selling to suspend and punish.

The lawyer AROD hired was the lawyer who handled Andy Petite and advised him to come clean. The same lawyer is also advising Cruz and Montero... Gotta make sure everyone has thier stories straight... on how they don't know Tony B and never had anyhting to do with the Clinics. If Cruz blushes, what do you think the advice to Arod will be?

Speaking from purely a fantasy point of view, If Braun does go down this year, he will have blown up quite a few Teams and leagues here. I don't have him on one team, but If I was to finish ahead of any team that had him, it wouldn't feel right. We were all forced to consider the choice when drafting and that's what sucked. As KJ and others said way back, its a risk choice or gamble, but to me we don't need that type of issue in Fantasy, it's hard enough already to play this game sometimes.

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Tom Kessenich » Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:14 pm

The lawyer ARod hired is the one who Braun hired last season so he's got a pretty good recent streak going. :) Seriously, though, I expect a major fight from the union if the suspensions are deemed excessive. ARod's move with the new lawyer strongly indicates he's preparing to fight a possible suspension and I think we can safely assume Braun is going to fight as well.

I still will be very surprised if Braun misses any games this season due to a suspension. I think if it happens it will be at the start of 2014. I think Braun owners need to be conscious of the situation obviously but I don't think they need to be in a panic about it. Personally, I'm more concerned about the thumb injury that has robbed him of his power lately. He's not driving the ball with authority at all the past week to 10 days or so.
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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Outlaw » Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:42 pm

Tom Kessenich wrote:The lawyer ARod hired is the one who Braun hired last season so he's got a pretty good recent streak going. :) Seriously, though, I expect a major fight from the union if the suspensions are deemed excessive. ARod's move with the new lawyer strongly indicates he's preparing to fight a possible suspension and I think we can safely assume Braun is going to fight as well.

I still will be very surprised if Braun misses any games this season due to a suspension. I think if it happens it will be at the start of 2014. I think Braun owners need to be conscious of the situation obviously but I don't think they need to be in a panic about it. Personally, I'm more concerned about the thumb injury that has robbed him of his power lately. He's not driving the ball with authority at all the past week to 10 days or so.

We all know the same information for the most part. I think there will be surprises all around in the near future and I do not dismiss that How I have viewed this whole mess has been wrong, but I am a firm believer on where there is smoke there has got be fire. So Far not one thing that we have been allowed to hear or see has surprised me. I believe most things can be predicted if one has an open mind.
For each player it comes down to did you or did'nt you?

Selig is retiring next year, so he says. He will be fair in this, but I do not think he lets this linger into next year one way or the other, it's happening this season. And as trivial as it may seem, he does not want to see another all star MVP get suspended, which could very well happen, especially with Braun.

By the end of next week everyone will know a lot more..... Tony B's meetigng today with MLB was to dot the i's and cross the t's on his agreement. He already gave them most of what they wanted and they already have verified most of it IMO.

I for one gave Arod the benefit of the doubt and even cheered him when he had a great post season in 2009 and the Yanks won the world series. But after all the turmoil he has caused his fans, the yankee fans, his teamates, baseball, admitting he used PEDs for a few years, I regret personally and ask myself how did you not See the guy is cheat and liar and a plain dirtbag. What made him into that type of person, who knows... and if he is involved in this I would not mind seeing him banned for life. Great you got money and you can hire high price lawyers, but do you ever consider anyone or anything first, like the Game itself, the other players?

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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Tom Kessenich » Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:54 pm

If ARod is found to be guilty any suspension he receives will likely be a career ender. He's at the end of the line as it is. I certainly have no love for the guy and he's already admitted he used PEDs in the past. But I don't have any problems with him fighting this if the allegations are unfounded. Same with Braun or any other player being linked to this. One of my biggest issues here is MLB has circumvented the JDA agreement by basically attempting to try these players in the court of public opinion as opposed to handling everything confidentially as the agreement stipulates. Even if they are ultimately proven correct and all of the players they are accusing did cheat and (some of them anyway) lied about it the methods that have been used to bring this matter to a conclusion have been extremely shady. That doesn't sit well with me since I'm typically not an ends justify the means kind of person.
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Re: Braun PEDS again??

Post by Outlaw » Fri Jun 07, 2013 2:08 pm

Tom Kessenich wrote:The lawyer ARod hired is the one who Braun hired last season so he's got a pretty good recent streak going. :) Seriously, though, I expect a major fight from the union if the suspensions are deemed excessive. ARod's move with the new lawyer strongly indicates he's preparing to fight a possible suspension and I think we can safely assume Braun is going to fight as well.

I still will be very surprised if Braun misses any games this season due to a suspension. I think if it happens it will be at the start of 2014. I think Braun owners need to be conscious of the situation obviously but I don't think they need to be in a panic about it. Personally, I'm more concerned about the thumb injury that has robbed him of his power lately. He's not driving the ball with authority at all the past week to 10 days or so.

Arods new attorney is Jay Reisinger, Brauns is David Cornwell - 2 different firms. Arods is Cruz and Montero too and was the one who advised Andy Petite to tell the truth. Just trying to keep the facts straight.

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