Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

knuckleheads
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Re: Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

Post by knuckleheads » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:07 am

Outlaw wrote:
knuckleheads wrote:quote="knuckleheads"]

What exactly did baseball win with this decision besides retribution for Braun's audacious gloating after the first Braun affair? A precedent for a 65 game suspension instead of 50?
You have no idea what you are talking about Knuckleheads, The leaks never came from MLB, including the initial Braun test failure.
So who are you suggesting leaked all of this information that came from MLB? A medium? I know that Bud Selig said the leaks didn't come from MLB, but that was shortly after after he said 'this should not be known as the steroid era because it was only ever just a few players who were ever using.'

You posted a very long response, but unless your answer to my question was, 'because kids have sad faces in NY Post pictures,' then you didn't answer the question at all. What did baseball win in this? The answer is nothing that has significantly moved the bar. You were crowing about MLB banning Braun for life and he got a measly 15 extra games of suspension than he otherwise would have received. Now it's Arod who will get the lifetime ban that he will try to negotiate down to a year and a half? I'll be stunned if he gets anything substantially more than Braun. Braun's deal is a precedent and it takes all the threat out of MLB's cases against the other players.

The purpose of penalties should be to discourage future use, not for vindictive punishment. Which one does this feel like to you?

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Outlaw
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Re: Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

Post by Outlaw » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:25 am

knuckleheads wrote:
Outlaw wrote:
knuckleheads wrote:quote="knuckleheads"]

What exactly did baseball win with this decision besides retribution for Braun's audacious gloating after the first Braun affair? A precedent for a 65 game suspension instead of 50?
You have no idea what you are talking about Knuckleheads, The leaks never came from MLB, including the initial Braun test failure.
So who are you suggesting leaked all of this information that came from MLB? A medium? I know that Bud Selig said the leaks didn't come from MLB, but that was shortly after after he said 'this should not be known as the steroid era because it was only ever just a few players who were ever using.'

You posted a very long response, but unless your answer to my question was, 'because kids have sad faces in NY Post pictures,' then you didn't answer the question at all. What did baseball win in this? The answer is nothing that has significantly moved the bar. You were crowing about MLB banning Braun for life and he got a measly 15 extra games of suspension than he otherwise would have received. Now it's Arod who will get the lifetime ban that he will try to negotiate down to a year and a half? I'll be stunned if he gets anything substantially more than Braun. Braun's deal is a precedent and it takes all the threat out of MLB's cases against the other players.

The purpose of penalties should be to discourage future use, not for vindictive punishment. Which one does this feel like to you?
I answered your question, it was not MLB, and I have previously stated where I believe the leaks came from . You are late to the discussion Knucklehead, I suggest you educate yourself on the entire issue, facts and its importance . The penalty for Braun and any others that are coming, are what both sides feel are fair under the current CBA and JDA. As for effectiveness, this entire sad situation will prove to be highly effective for baseball, all the clean players and its fans long term. Your views are misguided at best IMO.

knuckleheads
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Re: Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

Post by knuckleheads » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:35 am

Outlaw wrote:I answered your question, it was not MLB, and I have previously stated where I believe the leaks came from . You are late to the discussion Knucklehead, I suggest you educate yourself on the entire issue, facts and its importance . The penalty for Braun and any others that are coming, are what both sides feel are fair under the current CBA and JDA. As for effectiveness, this entire sad situation will prove to be highly effective for baseball, all the clean players and its fans long term. Your views are misguided at best IMO.
You are hoping, not thinking. You wanted players punished and you've got it. Congrats. Gloat away. But it just isn't changing the climate. Here's a quote from Selig:

“The use of steroids and amphetamines amongst today’s players has greatly subsided and is virtually nonexistent, as our testing results have shown,” Selig said in a statement. “The so-called steroid era — a reference that is resented by the many players who played in that era and never touched the substances — is clearly a thing of the past.”

--That quote is from a January 11, 2010 article after Mark McGwire admitted steroid use... OOPS! Turns out PED use wasn't finished 3 years ago.


Selig noted in the statement that in 2009, there were only two positive steroid tests in major league baseball out of 3,722 samples.

“He said that?” said Travis Tygart, the head of the United States Anti-Doping Agency, which oversees the testing of Olympic athletes, when read Selig’s statement. “If so, it sounds like the same stick-your-head-in-the-sand approach that led to this whole mess. I find it hard to believe that is what he said.”
Last edited by knuckleheads on Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jvetter
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Re: Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

Post by jvetter » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:56 am

The thing that gets me the most upset by this mess is the fact he lied well enough to get some people to trust him.

I don't think it was majority of the fans, but I think a lot of people believed that Braun was innocent (myself included). I thought he gave reasonable doubt to his use of PEDs.

It makes me look stupid for trusting him (and drafting him). Now because of this, I will be much less inclined to believe the next suspected PED user that claims to be innocent, and I suspect that most of the others who trusted Braun are thinking similarly.

I think an unfortunate consequence of this situation, is that future players linked to PEDs will no longer be given the benefit of the doubt. I'm not talking about the players who have positive tests. I'm talking about the players that will be linked from leaks and rumors of investigations. In many fan's minds, they will be guilty until proven innocent and maybe even still guilty after that. Maybe that's the way it should be. Maybe that's an added level of incentive for players to stay away from any place that might be linked to PEDs. I just hope that no innocent players have to get thrown under the bus in all this mess.

I applaud the MLB for getting this right and thanks to Outlaw for keeping us informed.

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Re: Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

Post by Outlaw » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:15 am

jvetter wrote:The thing that gets me the most upset by this mess is the fact he lied well enough to get some people to trust him.

I don't think it was majority of the fans, but I think a lot of people believed that Braun was innocent (myself included). I thought he gave reasonable doubt to his use of PEDs.

It makes me look stupid for trusting him (and drafting him). Now because of this, I will be much less inclined to believe the next suspected PED user that claims to be innocent, and I suspect that most of the others who trusted Braun are thinking similarly.

I think an unfortunate consequence of this situation, is that future players linked to PEDs will no longer be given the benefit of the doubt. I'm not talking about the players who have positive tests. I'm talking about the players that will be linked from leaks and rumors of investigations. In many fan's minds, they will be guilty until proven innocent and maybe even still guilty after that. Maybe that's the way it should be. Maybe that's an added level of incentive for players to stay away from any place that might be linked to PEDs. I just hope that no innocent players have to get thrown under the bus in all this mess.

I applaud the MLB for getting this right and thanks to Outlaw for keeping us informed.

jvetter- I believe MLB and the union will tighten the rules and they will both try and improve the confidentiality of the whole process in the future, when it is needed. This was a big one, with literally hundreds having some knowledge. In this digital age, unfortunately it is becoming impossible to hide things... You are and were not stupid, it is reasonable to expect that most did not follow this that closely and how would anyone know Braun was lying, he was very convincing. We all live and learn and that is what forms our future opinions. I for one see a clean future for Baseball and its players and as soon as next year and that is not based on hope, that is based on the majority of players saying that too. As someone mentioned earlier, Skip Schumaker last night, has echoed how most feel.

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Re: Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

Post by Outlaw » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:51 am

The Fired Test collector has been sitting on a ready to go lawsuit for months against Braun and others. He was fired from his job once Braun's appeal was announced and apparently wrongly so. For Braun and others they can expect civil litigation shortly and they can decide on settling with Mr. Laurenzi or they can have their day in court. The thing with civil litigation is, it more than likely will all become public. Subpoena's will flow, people will have to testify. My guess is no one will want the details coming out and settlements will happen. Braun and his attorney were the ones who drug this mans name through the mud and thier is a price for that and rightfully so IMO.

It will be all these type of unintended consequences by the Cheaters and the suppliers like Tony B that make this story have a longer shelf life than it should.

Dino Laurenzi - “At no point did I tamper in any way with the samples,” Laurenzi said in the statement. “Given the lateness of the hour that I completed my collections, there was no FedEx office located within 50 miles of Miller Park that would ship packages that day or Sunday. Therefore, the earliest that the specimens could be shipped was Monday, October 3. In that circumstance, CDT has instructed collectors since I began in 2005 that they should safeguard the samples in their homes until FedEx is able to immediately ship the sample to the laboratory, rather than having the samples sit for one day or more at a local FedEx office. The protocol has been in place since 2005 when I started with CDT and there have been other occasions when I have had to store samples in my home for at least one day, all without incident.”

“This situation has caused great emotional distress for me and my family,” Laurenzi said in his statement. “I have worked hard my entire life, have performed my job duties with integrity and professionalism, and have done so with respect to this matter and all other collections in which I have participated.”

=============================================================

David Cornwell - Apparently unhappy about the questions that continue to swirl around his client, an attorney for Milwaukee Brewers’ star Ryan Braun fired back at Dino Laurenzi Jr., the urine sample collector at the center of the controversy surrounding Braun’s successful appeal of his positive drug test and 50-game suspension.

“Ryan Braun presented a winning defense in the forum that counted,” David Cornwell, Braun’s lawyer, said in a statement released on Thursday. “The landmark decision in Ryan’s favor was based on the evidence and the plain meaning of the words in baseball’s Joint Drug Program.”

Laurenzi reacted to Braun’s comments with a strong defense of his own, saying he followed the protocol of his employer, Comprehensive Drug Testing, Inc., in taking the sample to his home and placing it in a secure, cool place rather than leaving it in a FedEx office over the weekend.

The sample arrived at the Montreal lab where it was tested in perfect condition, no seals broken, he said, no indication of tampering.

“At no point did I tamper in any way with the samples. It is my understanding that the samples were received at the laboratory with all tamper-resistant seals intact,” Laurenzi said.

“The collector’s attempt to re-litigate his conduct is inappropriate, and his efforts will only be persuasive to those who do not understand the evidence or the rules,” Cornwell said. “Ryan Braun was properly vindicated. Both Major League Baseball and the Major League Baseball Players Association should be applauded because their Joint Program worked.”

======================================================================

Laurenzi, a 52-year-old Wisconsin health care worker, was collecting drug samples from MLB players, although once his name and contact information were released to reporters, ostensibly by Braun’s camp, Laurenzi was temporarily pulled from his CDT job. He has since returned to the Milwaukee area to resume his full-time job as the director of rehabilitation services at a health-care facility in Kenosha, Wis., according to his father.

Laurenzi has retained New York attorney Boyd Johnson III of Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr LLP, to represent him.

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Re: Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

Post by Outlaw » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:21 pm

I'm hearing the whispers are getting louder quickly regarding the authorities possibly getting involved. MLB's stance is right now they will not, unsolicited, provide information/evidence/records, but will do so under subpoena from any Govt entity conducting an investigation. As part of Braun's plea suspension, he was told as much by MLB. It makes sense when I re-read Braun's official statement. It was very vague and acknowledged no use, buying, selling, failing any test of any illegal drugs/PEDS. It's one reason people today are hammering Braun for not sounding sincere and his apology did not go far enough, he is trying to protect himself from criminal charges and I highly doubt he will do much talking or explaining as many are calling for, until, if and when he is sure there will be no criminal complaints. The distribution, sale and use of illegal steroids and other performance-enhancing substances violates federal drug trafficking and distributing laws when it occurs between states. Those laws include the Controlled Substances Act, which outlaws the trafficking of a wide-range of substances. I've always felt one of MLB's tactics was to bring up possibly turning over the evidence they have uncovered over to the various authorities, to each of the players involved. I know the state of Florida has an open case against Biogenesis and some other clinics.

I also know that the DEA has been involved off and on for quite sometime in the MLB investigation and probably has advised MLB on various issues and may even have thier own investigation ongoing. The fact MLB brought in a very legitimate investigative agency (GSIS) to conduct the investigation means its being done using law enforcement guidelines and techniques, as to the rules of evidence. I have friends who have told me the FEDS and the Gov't have had enough with professional sports athletes being involved in illegal drug activity, non stop criminal activity and more specifically, the NFL and NBA. It may be a reason the NFL is fast tracking a new drug enforcement agreement with that union that could be done by the end of this week.

I'm hoping they stay out of it, and that all sports apply and use the new found support and pressure they seem to be gaining, for going after the Users within the rules and CBA's of each sport. The only issue with that is, what happens to the Suppliers? People may agree or disagree, but the fact remains, nothing is off the table at this point regarding PEDS/Drug activity and with how hard the Govt' went after Bonds and Clemens, and those was small cases, involving 1 user and 1 supplier each for the most part, they could very well be waiting in the wings for the BIG one.

I'm not saying any of this will happen, but it would not surprise me at all. The whispers have been around for months.

AROD is saying today through sources he is going to fight. Sources are saying MLB is going hard for a lifetime ban. I say they meet in middle and all this is dribble and posturing for right now because of what just happened with Braun. The more I think about it, AROD is probably looking at the 150 games originally "leaked". If Arod does go the route of appeal, it will get ugly and this whole problem could go places no one ever dreamed of. AROD could be the switch that truly sets the FEDS off.

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Re: Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

Post by BK METS » Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:41 pm

Outlaw wrote:The Fired Test collector has been sitting on a ready to go lawsuit for months against Braun and others. He was fired from his job once Braun's appeal was announced and apparently wrongly so. For Braun and others they can expect civil litigation shortly and they can decide on settling with Mr. Laurenzi or they can have their day in court. The thing with civil litigation is, it more than likely will all become public. Subpoena's will flow, people will have to testify. My guess is no one will want the details coming out and settlements will happen. Braun and his attorney were the ones who drug this mans name through the mud and thier is a price for that and rightfully so IMO.

It will be all these type of unintended consequences by the Cheaters and the suppliers like Tony B that make this story have a longer shelf life than it should.

Dino Laurenzi - “At no point did I tamper in any way with the samples,” Laurenzi said in the statement. “Given the lateness of the hour that I completed my collections, there was no FedEx office located within 50 miles of Miller Park that would ship packages that day or Sunday. Therefore, the earliest that the specimens could be shipped was Monday, October 3. In that circumstance, CDT has instructed collectors since I began in 2005 that they should safeguard the samples in their homes until FedEx is able to immediately ship the sample to the laboratory, rather than having the samples sit for one day or more at a local FedEx office. The protocol has been in place since 2005 when I started with CDT and there have been other occasions when I have had to store samples in my home for at least one day, all without incident.”

“This situation has caused great emotional distress for me and my family,” Laurenzi said in his statement. “I have worked hard my entire life, have performed my job duties with integrity and professionalism, and have done so with respect to this matter and all other collections in which I have participated.”

=============================================================

David Cornwell - Apparently unhappy about the questions that continue to swirl around his client, an attorney for Milwaukee Brewers’ star Ryan Braun fired back at Dino Laurenzi Jr., the urine sample collector at the center of the controversy surrounding Braun’s successful appeal of his positive drug test and 50-game suspension.

“Ryan Braun presented a winning defense in the forum that counted,” David Cornwell, Braun’s lawyer, said in a statement released on Thursday. “The landmark decision in Ryan’s favor was based on the evidence and the plain meaning of the words in baseball’s Joint Drug Program.”

Laurenzi reacted to Braun’s comments with a strong defense of his own, saying he followed the protocol of his employer, Comprehensive Drug Testing, Inc., in taking the sample to his home and placing it in a secure, cool place rather than leaving it in a FedEx office over the weekend.

The sample arrived at the Montreal lab where it was tested in perfect condition, no seals broken, he said, no indication of tampering.

“At no point did I tamper in any way with the samples. It is my understanding that the samples were received at the laboratory with all tamper-resistant seals intact,” Laurenzi said.

“The collector’s attempt to re-litigate his conduct is inappropriate, and his efforts will only be persuasive to those who do not understand the evidence or the rules,” Cornwell said. “Ryan Braun was properly vindicated. Both Major League Baseball and the Major League Baseball Players Association should be applauded because their Joint Program worked.”

======================================================================

Laurenzi, a 52-year-old Wisconsin health care worker, was collecting drug samples from MLB players, although once his name and contact information were released to reporters, ostensibly by Braun’s camp, Laurenzi was temporarily pulled from his CDT job. He has since returned to the Milwaukee area to resume his full-time job as the director of rehabilitation services at a health-care facility in Kenosha, Wis., according to his father.

Laurenzi has retained New York attorney Boyd Johnson III of Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr LLP, to represent him.
I commend you in your prediction and research into this case. Kudos for seeing it happen before it happened. I disagree that Dino Laurenzi Jr, has any case. One has nothing to do with the other, unfortunately, and that really sucks.

There are no winners in this agreement. Braun will forever be known as a cheater and a liar and pretty much a scumbag for the smear campaign he started on Dino Laurenzi Jr, to cover up his cheating. MLB is definitely not a winner, agreeing to what is basically a slap on the wrist for a multiple offender and a player who embarrassed the league with his antics last year. Giving him a suspension for the rest of this season, a lost year for the Brewers anyways, pretty much cost him $3-4 million of a $100 mil contract. How is this good for baseball? Players on the other side of the fence, the non-cheaters, can't be happy with this agreement and other users can't be happy as it pretty much seals their fates, although they may fight for a while. Its just a mess... But the biggest loser in all of this, the person that didn't deserve any of this, is Dino Laurenzi Jr. He was just doing his job and was smeared through the media and the Braun camp email pretty much proved they were putting it all on him. Braun is the lowest of the low. He should just retire, take whatever money he has, and disappear. No one, not even a die hard Brewer fan, can root for this guy. At least Bonds had San Francisco and a loyal following, and was a hall of fame player anyways. Braun is just simply scum.

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Re: Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

Post by Outlaw » Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:00 pm

BK METS wrote:
I commend you in your prediction and research into this case. Kudos for seeing it happen before it happened. I disagree that Dino Laurenzi Jr, has any case. One has nothing to do with the other, unfortunately, and that really sucks.

There are no winners in this agreement. Braun will forever be known as a cheater and a liar and pretty much a scumbag for the smear campaign he started on Dino Laurenzi Jr, to cover up his cheating. MLB is definitely not a winner, agreeing to what is basically a slap on the wrist for a multiple offender and a player who embarrassed the league with his antics last year. Giving him a suspension for the rest of this season, a lost year for the Brewers anyways, pretty much cost him $3-4 million of a $100 mil contract. How is this good for baseball? Players on the other side of the fence, the non-cheaters, can't be happy with this agreement and other users can't be happy as it pretty much seals their fates, although they may fight for a while. Its just a mess... But the biggest loser in all of this, the person that didn't deserve any of this, is Dino Laurenzi Jr. He was just doing his job and was smeared through the media and the Braun camp email pretty much proved they were putting it all on him. Braun is the lowest of the low. He should just retire, take whatever money he has, and disappear. No one, not even a die hard Brewer fan, can root for this guy. At least Bonds had San Francisco and a loyal following, and was a hall of fame player anyways. Braun is just simply scum.
Well said Alan, but we can respectfully diasgree on whether Mr. Laurenzi has any case for slander. Civil court is 51-49, a much lower standard of responsibilty and burden. Ultimatley it will be his decision to defend his name... A tough call for him, but from what we know now, I think he has a claim agaisnt both Braun and his attorney and if I was them, I would not want to drag this through open court, which is what would happen. I think they will settle before any court case for what Mr. Laurenzi thinks is fair.

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Re: Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

Post by knuckleheads » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:01 pm

Outlaw wrote:
BK METS wrote:
I commend you in your prediction and research into this case. Kudos for seeing it happen before it happened. I disagree that Dino Laurenzi Jr, has any case. One has nothing to do with the other, unfortunately, and that really sucks.

There are no winners in this agreement. Braun will forever be known as a cheater and a liar and pretty much a scumbag for the smear campaign he started on Dino Laurenzi Jr, to cover up his cheating. MLB is definitely not a winner, agreeing to what is basically a slap on the wrist for a multiple offender and a player who embarrassed the league with his antics last year. Giving him a suspension for the rest of this season, a lost year for the Brewers anyways, pretty much cost him $3-4 million of a $100 mil contract. How is this good for baseball? Players on the other side of the fence, the non-cheaters, can't be happy with this agreement and other users can't be happy as it pretty much seals their fates, although they may fight for a while. Its just a mess... But the biggest loser in all of this, the person that didn't deserve any of this, is Dino Laurenzi Jr. He was just doing his job and was smeared through the media and the Braun camp email pretty much proved they were putting it all on him. Braun is the lowest of the low. He should just retire, take whatever money he has, and disappear. No one, not even a die hard Brewer fan, can root for this guy. At least Bonds had San Francisco and a loyal following, and was a hall of fame player anyways. Braun is just simply scum.
Well said Alan, but we can respectfully diasgree on whether Mr. Laurenzi has any case for slander. Civil court is 51-49, a much lower standard of responsibilty and burden. Ultimatley it will be his decision to defend his name... A tough call for him, but from what we know now, I think he has a claim agaisnt both Braun and his attorney and if I was them, I would not want to drag this through open court, which is what would happen. I think they will settle before any court case for what Mr. Laurenzi thinks is fair.
I really don't like to be the antagonist in all this, but had Mr. Laurenzi done his job properly, Braun likely would have been suspended in 2011. Baseball would have been saved all this heartache (and money), and Mr. Laurenzi would not have lost his job.

Baseball would more likely have a case against Mr. Laurenzi's employer than he against Braun. If you listen to Braun's press conference in 2011, he was very careful to not say Mr. Laurenzi tampered with his sample. When asked if he thought Mr. Laurenzi tampered with his sample, Braun said, 'I honestly don't know what happened to the sample during those 44 hours.'

Mr. Laurenzi is no martyr, his incompetence is the reason for this 2-year odyssey.

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Re: Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

Post by knuckleheads » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:10 pm

Outlaw, I know my previous post won't sway you, because you seem to really only be interested in PED solutions that include punishing users as much as humanly possible inside the game and outside.

So look at it this way. If Laurenzi had done his job properly, Braun would have been dealing with his second strike on this current affair and would have been suspended 100 games or more.

Laurenzi does job correctly - Braun punished more - Outlaw happy.

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Re: Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

Post by Outlaw » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:05 pm

Arod suspension may be coming by Friday. Word is he will cut a deal, rather than fight and wants the same deal Braun got. To me it seems Arod is getting very aggressive though with the Yankees and MLB and I think it's becuase he may just blow the lid on everything that is BioGen or at least that is what he is telling MLB, a totally different strategy than what others are reporting. I'm not a conspiracy person at all, but I have heard about 1-2 major names still not out there and I'm not sure there is clear cut proof on those people. Would MLB cater to Arod to protect them, if MLB doesnt have clear proof on them?

Bottom line, Arod is becoming a circus, a sideshow and is a proven liar and cheat. 2008 on national TV - I never did PEDS- I love the game too much to cheat. 2009 on national TV- I did PEDs for 3 years while I won My MVP awards and I'm sorry for lying and am telling the truth now becuase I Love the game. The only one or thing Arod loves is himself and his bank accounts. I've had a feeling for months that AROD is going to drag others down with him, others on the Yankees.. but its just a gut feeling... and I hope it's not true.

I'll add that if any Yankees did do PEDS, they deserve the same as any cheater.

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Re: Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

Post by BK METS » Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:23 pm

"I really don't like to be the antagonist in all this, but had Mr. Laurenzi done his job properly, Braun likely would have been suspended in 2011. Baseball would have been saved all this heartache (and money), and Mr. Laurenzi would not have lost his job.

Baseball would more likely have a case against Mr. Laurenzi's employer than he against Braun. If you listen to Braun's press conference in 2011, he was very careful to not say Mr. Laurenzi tampered with his sample. When asked if he thought Mr. Laurenzi tampered with his sample, Braun said, 'I honestly don't know what happened to the sample during those 44 hours.'

Mr. Laurenzi is no martyr, his incompetence is the reason for this 2-year odyssey."

So its Mr. Laurenzi's fault for this 2-year odyssey... now I have heard it all. It was like one of those old episodes of Law & Order. A guy murders someone. The gun with his fingerprints in blood, are on the trigger, but the search order is invalid and the guy goes free, then kills 2 more people and finally gets convicted. Are we blaming the original police officers for the ordeal? No. The guy made a mistake. There was no tampering with the sample. We all know that. Braun knows that. Laurenzi isn't at fault for anything other than making a mistake that any one of us could have made. He shouldn't have been fired and wouldn't have if Braun was a man. Instead, not only does he get off, but he puts the smear campaign on Laurenzi to further discredit him. Move on. No, he couldn't do that, he had to humiliate the guy. Look at the email written.. not just the news conference. Knucklehead, you are missing the point.

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Re: Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

Post by Outlaw » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:15 pm

BK METS wrote:"I really don't like to be the antagonist in all this, but had Mr. Laurenzi done his job properly, Braun likely would have been suspended in 2011. Baseball would have been saved all this heartache (and money), and Mr. Laurenzi would not have lost his job.

Baseball would more likely have a case against Mr. Laurenzi's employer than he against Braun. If you listen to Braun's press conference in 2011, he was very careful to not say Mr. Laurenzi tampered with his sample. When asked if he thought Mr. Laurenzi tampered with his sample, Braun said, 'I honestly don't know what happened to the sample during those 44 hours.'

Mr. Laurenzi is no martyr, his incompetence is the reason for this 2-year odyssey."

So its Mr. Laurenzi's fault for this 2-year odyssey... now I have heard it all. It was like one of those old episodes of Law & Order. A guy murders someone. The gun with his fingerprints in blood, are on the trigger, but the search order is invalid and the guy goes free, then kills 2 more people and finally gets convicted. Are we blaming the original police officers for the ordeal? No. The guy made a mistake. There was no tampering with the sample. We all know that. Braun knows that. Laurenzi isn't at fault for anything other than making a mistake that any one of us could have made. He shouldn't have been fired and wouldn't have if Braun was a man. Instead, not only does he get off, but he puts the smear campaign on Laurenzi to further discredit him. Move on. No, he couldn't do that, he had to humiliate the guy. Look at the email written.. not just the news conference. Knucklehead, you are missing the point.

Agree 100% Alan... There is even a process in the R&P for the company that tells the collectors what to do in just this example, if they cannot get to the shipping depot in time or it is closed. It's the type of proceudre that MLB, The UNION and the company were all aware of. In fact numerous other testing samples fell into this specific circumstance and with no known problems. In fact Mr. Laurenzi, had this happen to him previoulsy with never an issue. The "LEGAL" techincality that was arbitrated was that this specific Handling procedure was not directly in the CBA or JDA and that is what Brauns legal team made thier case on. These facts have not been well reported at all, but have been out for over a year. It was also the impetus for MLB to contract with and have WADA oversee the testing Program this past year. I guess sometimes people need things spelled out explicitly to grasp what occurred.

Being a Met Fan Alan, you might like this interview with Nails... Hard to tell if he is sincere now... http://jonlovitzvodcastnetwork.com/cate ... orts-talk/

I met him after the end of his rookie season when he was this little small guy, when he spoke at our Little League dinner out at Felices in Patchouge in Oct 1985. I remember how my 12 yr old All star team just went nuts over him, he was very engaging....

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Re: Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

Post by Outlaw » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:44 pm

You just cannot make this stuff up.... AROD has lost it...

Active Center for Health and Wellness = AROD and his new doctor, Dr. Gross (The "Quad" doctor that AROD had go on the Mike Francessa show this afternoon) and tell the world ARod was ready to play and had no quad strain. Now he has the MLB investigators looking into this clinic.

Gross was reprimanded in February from the New Jersey State Board of Medical Examiners for “failing to adequately ensure proper patient treatment involving the prescribing of hormones including steroids.”

Gross was asked specifically about the order of reprimand and said “it’s a closed matter.” Gross called the Active Center for Health and Wellness a “separate practice.”

“One of the people who worked there was a physician who completed medical school, who finished a residency, but he wasn’t a licensed physician in New Jersey. We never maintained that he was a physician, but in an unrelated investigation of a lot of wellness centers, the board came across that,” Gross said. “I met with the board. I received what you saw. It’s a closed matter. But it has nothing to do with Alex. I really don’t think it’s germane to this. (Rodriguez) has never been a patient here. He’s never been treated here. We don’t prescribe anabolic steroids. We never have. We prescribe what’s called bio-identical hormones, for men with low testosterone, like what you see on television all the time. We prescribe testosterone.”

Seems to me the State of New Jersey felt he was handing out Steroids... Wouldnt be surprised if MLB knew about this clinic too, as they do know about others.

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Re: Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

Post by Tom Kessenich » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:46 pm

I'm not on Braun's side here at all but if you're going to propose that he be sued shouldn't the arbitrator who agreed the process was mucked up also be sued? It's not like Braun's word alone is why he won his appeal. He presented his case to an arbitrator who agreed with Braun's findings. Yes Braun is the one who had a press conference but were it not for an arbitrator's ruling that press conference would've been a whole lot different, assuming it even existed at all.
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Re: Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

Post by Outlaw » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:13 pm

Tom Kessenich wrote:I'm not on Braun's side here at all but if you're going to propose that he be sued shouldn't the arbitrator who agreed the process was mucked up also be sued? It's not like Braun's word alone is why he won his appeal. He presented his case to an arbitrator who agreed with Braun's findings. Yes Braun is the one who had a press conference but were it not for an arbitrator's ruling that press conference would've been a whole lot different, assuming it even existed at all.
The arbitrator deals with the facts that are presented. If they are lies, or proved to not be factual after the fact, or if people involved (like Braun) lie... no way that can be the arbitrators fault or be considered at the time of the ruling. There will be no one suing Das, in fact, Das I suppose could claim the lies of Braun and others cuased him to be fired. I don't he will though.
If Mr. Laurenzi files a lawsuit against Braun, I have no doubt Braun will settle with him. And if went to court, i have no doubt Braun loses, but hey those are my fellings, you can agree or not.

At the End of the day its irconic people want to play the what if game with all this.... Stick to the facts.

Braun and his ilk have been cheating and lying for 25 years with this PED crap, They and ony they make the decision to put the stuff in thier bodies and cheat. all the other so called reasons for doing so are BS.

Time to pay the piper it appears for all of them and to set the precedents for the future.

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Re: Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

Post by Tom Kessenich » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:16 pm

Again, there is no denying Braun is a lying cheat.

However, it was not his word alone which found issue with how the process was handled. Ultimately, the arbitrator carried far more weight with this than Braun did. Had he not found Braun's side credible Braun would've been suspended. But he did and Braun wasn't. So it seems silly to me to focus only on Braun as if he was the only one who had the power to determine whether the process was followed properly or not. At the end of the day, he wielded no such power with that at all.
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Re: Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

Post by knuckleheads » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:23 pm

Outlaw wrote:
Tom Kessenich wrote:I'm not on Braun's side here at all but if you're going to propose that he be sued shouldn't the arbitrator who agreed the process was mucked up also be sued? It's not like Braun's word alone is why he won his appeal. He presented his case to an arbitrator who agreed with Braun's findings. Yes Braun is the one who had a press conference but were it not for an arbitrator's ruling that press conference would've been a whole lot different, assuming it even existed at all.
At the End of the day its irconic people want to play the what if game with all this.... Stick to the facts.

Braun and his ilk have been cheating and lying for 25 years with this PED crap, They and ony they make the decision to put the stuff in thier bodies and cheat. all the other so called reasons for doing so are BS.

Time to pay the piper it appears for all of them and to set the precedents for the future.
PEDs haven't been against the rules in baseball for 25 years. Stick to the facts.

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Re: Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

Post by Outlaw » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:35 pm

Back to Arod and the remaining cheats...

Arod and all the others are being confronted with these high level details: some or all applies to various players.

1. Being accused of using PEDS over multiple seasons
2. Recruiting other athletes for BioGen, BioKem and other clinics
3. Some attempting to obstruct MLB’s investigation
4. Not being truthful with MLB in the past about PED using
5. Past failed tests that MLB did not suspend for in 2011 and 2012 seasons because of Union issues (and now MLB has purchase and delivery dates that correspond to those failed tests)
6. Purchasing PEDS during the 2012 season
7. Interstate Delivery of controlled substances
8. Clubhouse Drug violations
9. Leaking details of the investigation, violating the JDA, CBA and MLB code of Conduct.

There are other things MLB has also on various players, but none as big as that list.

Arod and possibly some others are also being looked into relationships with Dr. Anthony Galea who pleaded guilty two years ago to a Federal charges of bringing unapproved drugs into the United States from Canada.

That above is the activity of any of the possible Cheats involved, the activity of Cheaters and Liars a small minority still wants to defend.

As Selig said today, "Any comment from me is inappropriate, "Selig said. "People have been thorough. I said last week the process would be comprehensive, thorough, fair and we have spent thousands of hours doing these things. I appreciate all the players who have been complimentary of the process. We're doing this in a very a disciplined, thorough, fair and sensitive matter."

Agree or disagree with the way its being done, but there is no argument to have done nothing at all this time...IMO

MLB does not have the keystone cops running this investigation.

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Re: Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

Post by Outlaw » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:43 pm

Tom Kessenich wrote:Again, there is no denying Braun is a lying cheat.

However, it was not his word alone which found issue with how the process was handled. Ultimately, the arbitrator carried far more weight with this than Braun did. Had he not found Braun's side credible Braun would've been suspended. But he did and Braun wasn't. So it seems silly to me to focus only on Braun as if he was the only one who had the power to determine whether the process was followed properly or not. At the end of the day, he wielded no such power with that at all.
I'm missing the point, but moving on, all I have said is that Braun will settle and will pay Mr. Laurenzi if he decides to sue him, which IMO he will. When MLB is done with all thier investigations and such, I would expect MR. Laurenzi's attorneys to file thier ready to go lawsuit, after first checking with Braun if he wishes to engage in settlement talks. There is a price to pay for tarnishing ones reputation. Just like MLB's lawsuit, a civil suit carries subpoena powers and even MLB would have to turn over relevant facts as it relates to Braun's case.

If Braun didnt do PEDS, the collector, the arbitor and tons of other people would not have been hurt by him. inlcuding his team and teamates.

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Re: Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

Post by Tom Kessenich » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:02 pm

And I'm saying if the guy is suing Braun he should sue the arbitrator too. That's the person whose voice was the most powerful with that decision.
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Re: Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

Post by Outlaw » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:15 pm

Tom Kessenich wrote:And I'm saying if the guy is suing Braun he should sue the arbitrator too. That's the person whose voice was the most powerful with that decision.

I see the point now, I suppose Mr. Luarenzi could try, but the arbitor I believe is legally protected in cases of illegal behavior, akin to malpractice insurance. He did'nt intentionally or willfully do anything wrong it appears.

Braun could have just kept his mouth shut, or at the very least thought twice about what he and his attorney spewed for days. Braun wanted to hammer home to the world, his teamates, the fans he didnt do anything wrong... at the time I said to some, that behavior and all those statements were idiotic...

He could have said, "I appreciate the efforts of everyone involved, including MLB and the Union. The JDA process worked and was fair and I cleared my good name and I am relieved to going back to the game I love and work hard at" period.

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Re: Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

Post by Outlaw » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:34 am

knuckleheads wrote: PEDs haven't been against the rules in baseball for 25 years. Stick to the facts.
I am Knucklehead. The use of any illegal drugs (PEDS included) without a doctors prescrip has been against the Rules of MLB, it's just the Union refused testing for them up until 10 years ago, which left the drug rules unenforceable by MLB. Many a player over the past 25 years has been caught by the authorities for illegal drug use. Not to mention the use of illegal drugs (PEDS included) without a doctors prescript in this country as far as I know, is still a criminal crime in this country. Your statement is disheartening as it sounds like you condone the use of illegal drugs/PEDS by the players.

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Re: Braun Suspended For Rest Of 2013 Season

Post by Outlaw » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:17 am

Porter Fisher will be doing his first interview today on ESPN at 3pm EST. I would guess he is trying to stay out of trouble too...

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