Hall Of Fame Balloting: Is It About Players or Writers?

[Greg Ambrosius]

Regarding Palmeiro, I was thinking what type of player he would have been without the PEDs. I think he would have developed some power during his peak years and then had a normal decline that would have cut a couple of years of counting stats off the end of his career. A career similar to Rusty Staub maybe. Pretty damn good but just short of the Hall.

He would have been James Loney.

[KJ Duke]

Regarding Palmeiro, I was thinking what type of player he would have been without the PEDs. I think he would have developed some power during his peak years and then had a normal decline that would have cut a couple of years of counting stats off the end of his career. A career similar to Rusty Staub maybe. Pretty damn good but just short of the Hall.

He would have been James Loney.

Or Mark Grace without the personality.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Regarding Palmeiro, I was thinking what type of player he would have been without the PEDs. I think he would have developed some power during his peak years and then had a normal decline that would have cut a couple of years of counting stats off the end of his career. A career similar to Rusty Staub maybe. Pretty damn good but just short of the Hall.

Markakis, Grace, Loney...they all describe Palmeiro without PED's.
Palmeiro was one of those players that put a sweet swing together with steroids and became baseball Superman.
It sounds like a slap, but it's not.
Darn it, if you're going to become a cheater, a player may as well be the best at it. Palmeiro was one of the best.
Palmeiro will be ultimately remembered by this generation for three things.
A sweet swing.
Finger wagging.
And Viagara.

[Ando]

Biggio established his personal best in HR's in a season at age 39.

#hellyeshejuiced

[DOUGHBOYS]

Biggio established his personal best in HR's in a season at age 39.

#hellyeshejuiced

I don't know if that alone, is enough to judge Biggio.
At 41, Raul Ibanez hit the second most homers he has ever hit in a season.
I wouldn't give Ibanez that tag...or even hashtag

[Ando]

Biggio established his personal best in HR's in a season at age 39.

#hellyeshejuiced

I don't know if that alone, is enough to judge Biggio.
At 41, Raul Ibanez hit the second most homers he has ever hit in a season.
I wouldn't give Ibanez that tag...or even hashtag

Fair enough, Dan. Let me re-phrase.

Craig Biggio remarkably established his personal best for HR's in a season during his age 39 season in 2005.

2005 also happens to be the approximate zenith of PED use in the game of baseball.

Where the hell is Outlaw when a man needs him?!?!? He'd back me up with a 72 paragraph article on why my statement is true, damnit!

[G@mblor]

I'm fine keeping the steroid users out just like I'm fine keeping Rose out. There needs to be consequences for this type of behavior. The sad thing is guys like Bonds, Clemens and Rose get in on the first ballot had they simply abided by the rules of the game. They did this to themselves and I have no sympathy for any of them. I do realize the owners and commissioner were complicit in the whole sadness of the steroid era but no one forced future Hall of Famers like Bonds and Clemens, for example, to stick a needle in their a**. In their case, I believe it was primarily ego driven. Plenty of others used steroids to keep up because their skills weren't at that high of a level. With players like Bonds and Clemens that clearly was not the case. So I have no sympathy for players who had that type of talent and decided to piss their legacy away without any regard for it.

By being ok with it, you are harming those thought to be on steroids....and maybe never did.
Did Piazza? I don't know.
Did Biggio? I don't know.
Those lie entirely in the voters minds. It's silly. Take it away.
They belong in the Hall.
It resembles more of a witch hunt than a vote for the Hall of Fame.


I'll still use the OJ analogy, because the time for Jackson, Rose, and Bonds to get in will eventually pass.
The Hall of Fame is not for the current generation as much as it is for the next.
The next generation should know from a baseball sense that Jackson, Rose, and Bonds are all Hall of Fame worthy, no matter their misdeeds.
Just as the football Hall of Fame still has Simpson. Timing of misdeeds should not matter.
Ty Cobb slugged fans and brutalized folks of other ethnicities. He is in the Hall of Fame.
When kids see that plaque, it's ok. Thoughts going through their minds are not what kind of man he is, but rather, what kind of player he is.
THAT is what is tantamount.
Let that next generation be free to think what they will, but they will know that these players belong.
Using the Hall of Fame to spank players for lifetime performances on the field is unjust.
The only thing the next generation will get out of this type of voting is that our generation was not smart enough to allow greatness on the field in the Hall of Fame.
A place where greatness on the field should come first....and everything else is a distant second.

I think the difference between guys like OJ and Cobb and someone like Bonds is how their misdeeds effected their statistics. Punching a fan or committing a crime years after your career has ended has no influence on what you were able to accomplish on the field. Sticking a needle in yourself to gain a physical advantage certainly does. I think the issue for those who don't want to see PED users in the hall is trust. We don't (and can't) know how much of Bonds numbers are legit and how much were aided. Whether Cobb or OJ were and are terrible human beings is beside the point, their numbers are clean.

[DOUGHBOYS]

I'm fine keeping the steroid users out just like I'm fine keeping Rose out. There needs to be consequences for this type of behavior. The sad thing is guys like Bonds, Clemens and Rose get in on the first ballot had they simply abided by the rules of the game. They did this to themselves and I have no sympathy for any of them. I do realize the owners and commissioner were complicit in the whole sadness of the steroid era but no one forced future Hall of Famers like Bonds and Clemens, for example, to stick a needle in their a**. In their case, I believe it was primarily ego driven. Plenty of others used steroids to keep up because their skills weren't at that high of a level. With players like Bonds and Clemens that clearly was not the case. So I have no sympathy for players who had that type of talent and decided to piss their legacy away without any regard for it.

By being ok with it, you are harming those thought to be on steroids....and maybe never did.
Did Piazza? I don't know.
Did Biggio? I don't know.
Those lie entirely in the voters minds. It's silly. Take it away.
They belong in the Hall.
It resembles more of a witch hunt than a vote for the Hall of Fame.


I'll still use the OJ analogy, because the time for Jackson, Rose, and Bonds to get in will eventually pass.
The Hall of Fame is not for the current generation as much as it is for the next.
The next generation should know from a baseball sense that Jackson, Rose, and Bonds are all Hall of Fame worthy, no matter their misdeeds.
Just as the football Hall of Fame still has Simpson. Timing of misdeeds should not matter.
Ty Cobb slugged fans and brutalized folks of other ethnicities. He is in the Hall of Fame.
When kids see that plaque, it's ok. Thoughts going through their minds are not what kind of man he is, but rather, what kind of player he is.
THAT is what is tantamount.
Let that next generation be free to think what they will, but they will know that these players belong.
Using the Hall of Fame to spank players for lifetime performances on the field is unjust.
The only thing the next generation will get out of this type of voting is that our generation was not smart enough to allow greatness on the field in the Hall of Fame.
A place where greatness on the field should come first....and everything else is a distant second.

I think the difference between guys like OJ and Cobb and someone like Bonds is how their misdeeds effected their statistics. Punching a fan or committing a crime years after your career has ended has no influence on what you were able to accomplish on the field. Sticking a needle in yourself to gain a physical advantage certainly does. I think the issue for those who don't want to see PED users in the hall is trust. We don't (and can't) know how much of Bonds numbers are legit and how much were aided. Whether Cobb or OJ were and are terrible human beings is beside the point, their numbers are clean.

And so are Joe Jackson's and so are Pete Rose.
And how do you decide who did and who didn't?
Is it fair for Piazza to be guilty by association?
Pick and choose?

[KJ Duke]

And so are Joe Jackson's and so are Pete Rose. And how do you decide who did and who didn't?

Exactly why Pete should be in the HOF. He had a gambling problem but did nothing to cheat the game. That's better than being a racist or a wife-beater, or Barry Bonds.

Disclosure - I never liked Rose when he was a player (that's an under-statment), but having a better historical perspective and appreciation for how he played, he is the second guy I'd vote in after Greg Maddux. And I wish he was managing a team too, so much better than most of the idiots running clubs now. He's still got an aggressive play tough attitude, compare that to a p**** like Mattingly. I'd hire him to coach my team.

[G@mblor]

And so are Joe Jackson's and so are Pete Rose. And how do you decide who did and who didn't?

Exactly why Pete should be in the HOF. He had a gambling problem but did nothing to cheat the game. That's better than being a racist or a wife-beater, or Barry Bonds.

Disclosure - I never liked Rose when he was a player (that's an under-statment), but having a better historical perspective and appreciation for how he played, he is the second guy I'd vote in after Greg Maddux. And I wish he was managing a team too, so much better than most of the idiots running clubs now. He's still got an aggressive play tough attitude, compare that to a p**** like Mattingly. I'd hire him to coach my team.

Agreed. To me both those guys belong in the hall. I was just drawing the distinction between players who have committed heinous acts in general and those who cheated using PED's. As far as how do you decide who gets in and who doesn't I suppose that's up to the voters. I, for one, would need to have some actual proof (a failed test) or a mountain of circumstantial evidence (Clemens, Bonds). Rumors alone shouldn't be enough to damn someone to baseball purgatory.

[Roy's Outlaws]

I'm fine keeping the steroid users out just like I'm fine keeping Rose out. There needs to be consequences for this type of behavior. The sad thing is guys like Bonds, Clemens and Rose get in on the first ballot had they simply abided by the rules of the game. They did this to themselves and I have no sympathy for any of them. I do realize the owners and commissioner were complicit in the whole sadness of the steroid era but no one forced future Hall of Famers like Bonds and Clemens, for example, to stick a needle in their a**. In their case, I believe it was primarily ego driven. Plenty of others used steroids to keep up because their skills weren't at that high of a level. With players like Bonds and Clemens that clearly was not the case. So I have no sympathy for players who had that type of talent and decided to piss their legacy away without any regard for it.

I disagree with your O.J. analogy Dan. He was inducted before his murder accusation. Now if you want to say he should have been kicked out after being acquitted of the charge that's another discussion entirely.

I do think there should be full transparency for the voting, however. Let's see who the 16 idiots were, for example, who didn't think Greg Maddux should have been inducted today.

I 'm good with the CHEATERS NEVER getting in the Hall. There is plenty of blame to go around, but it all came down to making MONEY, plain and simple. GREEDY Union,Players and Owners. Start with the Union leadership of Donald Fehr and Gene Orza, who both didn't care about the player health or affect of steroids on players future health. They only cared about player putting up huge Numbers so they could raise the contract of all the player by raising the stats of the top players. The few clean player deserve blame for not stepping up and going against the union and the majority of dirty player to clean up the game( It would have taken big guts to do what would have been right).But they like making the extra money they where getting because of the inflated contract for everyone. Now for Bud ( The Used Car Salesmen) Selig and the Owners, they looked the other way for years because they didn't want to fight the union for Drug Testing and where more than happy to have all the Home Run record and record attendance, and just kept raising their profits and value of their teams. Now Bud's trying to clean up the game on his way out the door, sorry Bud your legacy is already set in stone as the man who let the steroid era go on for way too long. Now the player are having to pay the price for their action and they still can't admit they did anything wrong. they still want to live in their perfect little bubble where they are still the special ones.

[BK METS]

I'm fine with the cheaters staying out of the hall of fame, but where do we draw the line? Why is it that Mike Piazza is not voted in because of "suspicion?" Why is it that one writer decides to only vote for 1 guy (Jack Morris) as he refuses to vote for anyone that played in the steroid era, including Maddux/Glavine? How does he know when the steroid era actually started and why is it Jack Morris is the exception? Morris played in the 80s and there is evidence there were steroids in the 80s. It just seems these writers are making decisions that are individually moronic.

Bottom line is, Bonds and Clemens will eventually make it in. So will Piazza. I am not so sure that Rose will get in.

[Glenneration X]

I'm not so sure that Bonds and Clemens eventually make it in and I hope they never do. Some think of me as somewhat of a Mets fan, so trust me it pains me to say that I'd rather Piazza never make it in than Bonds and/or Clemens ever do.

However I do believe Piazza belongs. Where do you draw the line? It's not that complicated. Suspicion should not be enough to keep a player out. However hard evidence, as is the case with Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro, Sosa, McGwire, ARod, etc. etc. should result in keeping 'em out for life. They knew the rules, they broke them, now pay the price.

Same for Rose.

[ALL-IN JD]

I think Piazza should go in with Sam Champion!!

[KJ Duke]

I am not so sure that Rose will get in.

In every over-zealous beaureacratic system someone pays the price for authoritarian over-reach. Pete is probably that guy for MLB. He did not cheat the game, Bonds and others did. You know what order I'd allow them in.

[Roy's Outlaws]

I think Piazza should go in with Sam Champion!!

they are both married to HoTTies.

[Roy's Outlaws]

I am not so sure that Rose will get in.

In every over-zealous beaureacratic system someone pays the price for authoritarian over-reach. Pete is probably that guy for MLB. He did not cheat the game, Bonds and others did. You know what order I'd allow them in.

Did anyone play any harder than Rose on the field between the line . Answer NO
Question: Why did Rose play so hard all the time?

Who anyone be surprised if Rose had a bet on his team to win in many of the games he in play and this gave him the extra incentive to play that hard as he was trying to win his bet???? This is just a though as I have never heard it mentioned or discuss, but I would not be surprised.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Rose played that way since day one.
It is tough to surmise that he played his whole career, that hard for that reason.

[Yah Mule]

I used to have a lot of anger towards the PED users. Babe Ruth is probably the reason I play roto baseball today. I remember sitting down with a book about baseball when I was a little kid just falling in love with the game. I can still recall the awe I felt as I examined Ruth's batting record. Then I discovered he started out as a record setting pitcher. He seemed so much larger than life to me and he still does today.

While Bonds approached Ruth's HR total of 714, I couldn't conceal my anger and disgust. Whoever pulled the plug on the audio for Bonds' 715th and erased it forever deserves his own exhibit in Cooperstown.

Now, almost eight years later, I find it hard to be too angry at any of the cheaters. First off, the league all but sanctioned and encouraged PED usage. Second, none of the baseball writers at the time were willing to make a peep. The guy who spoke up about the bottle of Androstenedione in McGwire's locker was shouted down as a killjoy by the members of his own profession. And everybody cheered themselves hoarse while Mac and Sosa broke Maris' record. The record that Maris almost killed himself setting. That really was stolen glory and its one of the ugliest footnotes to the whole mess. The Maris family was so gracious to Mac and he betrayed their trust so completely.

One argument PED apologists like to use is the fact that players took greenies quite openly for decades and these can also be considered performance enhancers. While the effect is less pronounced than PEDs, there was still a clear benefit.

Ultimately, I don't care if Bonds or any other cheater is enshrined. The bell can't be unrung and making innocent guys collateral damage is not worth it. Not when most of this outrage seems to be about the guilty consciences of guys who didn't have the guts to take a stand at the time. During Bonds' run of four straight MVP's, there were 128 first place votes cast and Bonds received 114. Way to go, guys. Ten years later, you can job Biggio out of enshrinement because you remember seeing a pimple on his back in the lockerroom once. Feel better now?