And the hits just keep on coming....

[Glenneration X]

Mike, I disagree with a lot of what you posted in this thread.

Most polls are taken from a small sample size of constituents, customers, etc. and as long as it includes a representative cross-section of the demographic, it's deemed accurate within an acceptable margin of error.

In another thread, it was stated that the Neilson ratings for the Houston metropolitan area are determined from a mere 479 households. Yet those 479 households are deemed an acceptable representation for a city of millions and is utilized to set advertising rates worth millions of dollars. 479 of 2.1 million (Houston's population as per the 2010 census) is a much smaller percentage than the message board posters are to the overall NFBC customer base.

I have no problem with the message board posters debating and spearheading the agenda for the NFBC. I know who they are, I know they are passionate about this game and this contest, I know they are of a similar fantasy "demographic" as I am. I do not know that would still be the case involving a poll of the hundreds or thousands who may play one or two DC's or one or two Online Championships per year and who might be much more casual about this hobby than those on these boards. Many of the message board posters are typically those with the most invested in this contest, in either entry fees, time, passion, etc. or some combination thereof. I am not only talking about total dollar amount either, for some a $125 DC entry is more a strain that a $20K Platinum spot. It's about what's behind the entry fee.

I know many may not agree with this, but as someone who carries a pretty large time and money budget for fantasy sports contests and for the NFBC, I'd prefer the argument be led by those who are as passionate about this game and contest as I am. I would not want the fate of this contest and my participation in it being decided by those who are not as invested or play it more casually and who might just answer a poll because it is sent to them without the thought and passion regarding the issues that those who respond here obviously display.

[Captain Hook]

Everyone is right .... about THEIR opinion

I do think Mike has a point that there could be alternative format choices. Up to Greg & Tom to decide if they want to offer some and then up to the customers to decide if those are leagues they would prefer to play in.

Simple as that .

[Glenneration X]

I also take issue with the theme that these boards are not "new poster friendly". This crops up from time to time and always makes me roll my eyes.

Massatto takes more heat than anyone (deservedly so ), Gekko too. KJ's not afraid to state a dissenting opinion to anyone, Joe Money either (often to each other). Even Doughy, the greatest playing ambassador the NFBC has, occasionally has received opposing opinions to his ideas, or even silence. We all have.

It has nothing to do with new poster or old, vet or rookie. It has to do with everyone on these boards having an opinion and a need and avenue to express it. That's what these boards are for.

If I were to give a new poster one word of advice. Don't take the boards so seriously. Have fun with them, enjoy them for what they are, express your opinions, then go about your day.

If you're the type that would get intimidated on a message board, it has nothing to do with the message board itself.

[Captain Hook]

More pain for the Maicer Izturis owners - OUT 2-3 months with LCL injury

ETA - including three main event teams who just added him last night

[Steel Lugnuts]

Everyone is right .... about THEIR opinion

I do think Mike has a point that there could be alternative format choices. Up to Greg & Tom to decide if they want to offer some and then up to the customers to decide if those are leagues they would prefer to play in.

Simple as that .

You are correct, couldn't get any more simpler than that! Not looking to change what is already in place, just another option.

[Deadheadz]

Now Logan Morrison is hurt.
Bad hammy by the looks of it.

[KJ Duke]

Izturis and Morrison ... put those injuries in the "helping your fantasy team" column if you've made the bad decision to start them.

[BK METS]

Luis Heredia has been placed on the disabled list at Low-A West Virigina with a right shoulder injury.

[KJ Duke]

Luis Heredia has been placed on the disabled list at Low-A West Virigina with a right shoulder injury.

No idea how you beat Deadz to the punch on that, Alan.

[Deadheadz]

Luis Heredia has been placed on the disabled list at Low-A West Virigina with a right shoulder injury.

You started Almonte, Smoak and Ackley on your DC Express 1 team...you're saying you don't have LoMo too?
They're gonna start calling you BK Mariners soon Alan.

[Outlaw]

Mike, I disagree with a lot of what you posted in this thread.

Most polls are taken from a small sample size of constituents, customers, etc. and as long as it includes a representative cross-section of the demographic, it's deemed accurate within an acceptable margin of error.

In another thread, it was stated that the Neilson ratings for the Houston metropolitan area are determined from a mere 479 households. Yet those 479 households are deemed an acceptable representation for a city of millions and is utilized to set advertising rates worth millions of dollars. 479 of 2.1 million (Houston's population as per the 2010 census) is a much smaller percentage than the message board posters are to the overall NFBC customer base.

I have no problem with the message board posters debating and spearheading the agenda for the NFBC. I know who they are, I know they are passionate about this game and this contest, I know they are of a similar fantasy "demographic" as I am. I do not know that would still be the case involving a poll of the hundreds or thousands who may play one or two DC's or one or two Online Championships per year and who might be much more casual about this hobby than those on these boards. Many of the message board posters are typically those with the most invested in this contest, in either entry fees, time, passion, etc. or some combination thereof. I am not only talking about total dollar amount either, for some a $125 DC entry is more a strain that a $20K Platinum spot. It's about what's behind the entry fee.

I know many may not agree with this, but as someone who carries a pretty large time and money budget for fantasy sports contests and for the NFBC, I'd prefer the argument be led by those who are as passionate about this game and contest as I am. I would not want the fate of this contest and my participation in it being decided by those who are not as invested or play it more casually and who might just answer a poll because it is sent to them without the thought and passion regarding the issues that those who respond here obviously display.

I don't think anyone is saying change the high dollar stakes leagues with multi thousand dollar entry fees for the few who play them. That's for the few who wish to endeavor, and they will agree on what they want, such as FAAb $$ for draft spots or paying for draft spots and such or whatever they wish and Rightly so!

You quite frankly have no idea and neither does the NFBC, that even in their signature event, the MAIN of 420 slots, just how many would like to see some changes, whatever they may be and Injuries and DL are a big issue. Then again, Neither do I. To rely solely on the 50 or so who post here and even us/those 50 who do post, are usually 50-50 on any given issue to boot. Some 75 -25, some 90-10.

The whole subject is/was about increasing injuries in MLB and Roster issues connected to injuries, how to possibly look at it all differently, different ideas, and not just by a few deciding, based on judging someone's commitment or joy in playing fantasy that is directly tied to their perceived passion and so called financial investment and whether their opinion matters.

Not for nothing, but just how is that you determine someone's passion for fantasy as you state, especially for the majority who never even post here and you probably don't even know: "I know many may not agree with this, but as someone who carries a pretty large time and money budget for fantasy sports contests and for the NFBC, I'd prefer the argument be led by those who are as passionate about this game and contest as I am. I would not want the fate of this contest and my participation in it being decided by those who are not as invested or play it more casually and who might just answer a poll because it is sent to them without the thought and passion regarding the issues that those who respond here obviously display."

Sorry Glen, I'll respectfully disagree with that entire statement, but I respect you had the balls to write it. My take, I don't want no polls, or other opinions unless it comes from those few that visit here, that I respect and that agree with me.

Maybe a few 125.00 DC owners will chime in or an owner with a 350.00 investment in 1 online Championship league. The whole issue of injuries and DL and pitching moves has been sliced and diced every which from here to kingdom come the past few years. At least my vote and for that matter anyone elses, in Govt or local elections carries the same weight as anyone elses, whether they are just a Bus Driver or CEO of Goldman Sachs.

I'd like to think the folks who run the NFBC could and would look to consider everyone's opinion, not just msg board banter and would be more than capable of soliciting as many others input as possible, in addition to articulating the reasoning and passion behind some possible changes, based on input from their customers/owners.

Not much more I can say on this subject about injuries and DL, shoot any one of us could just cut and paste the basic same arguments from the last few seasons about injuries and as I said earlier, don't fret, nothing will probably change, unless the truly passionate and large dollar players want it to.

[Deadheadz]

Luis Heredia has been placed on the disabled list at Low-A West Virigina with a right shoulder injury.

No idea how you beat Deadz to the punch on that, Alan.

Oh, is this reserved for top 100 types?
Fine, how about Bryce Harper leaving the game with quad tightness? Does he have to hit the DL before it's news worthy?

I'm still learning guys. Thanks for your patience.

[Glenneration X]

Not for nothing, but just how is that you determine someone's passion for fantasy as you state: "I know many may not agree with this, but as someone who carries a pretty large time and money budget for fantasy sports contests and for the NFBC, I'd prefer the argument be led by those who are as passionate about this game and contest as I am. I would not want the fate of this contest and my participation in it being decided by those who are not as invested or play it more casually and who might just answer a poll because it is sent to them without the thought and passion regarding the issues that those who respond here obviously display."

Sorry Glen, I'll respectfully disagree with that entire statement, but I respect you had the balls to write it. My take, I don't want no polls, or other opinions unless it comes from those few that visit here, that I respect and that agree with me.

Maybe a few 125.00 DC owners will chime in or an owner with a 350.00 investment in 1 online Championship league.

You misinterpret my quote, and perhaps it's my fault in the wording.

My point is and I'll respond to your quote "Not for nothing, but just how is that you determine someone's passion for fantasy" to help clarify my point.....

I can't determine their passion, just as you can't. They may care as much as I or you or many others "on" these boards, or they may just be someone for which fantasy is a minor investment for a minor pastime that they enjoy playing but don't "care" about nearly as much.

But that's my point. I don't know. I want to know that those determining the course of a contest I am passionate about are just as passionate about it as I am. I know that about those that contribute and debate and argue on these boards about something as inconsequential to most of the world as DL spots on a fantasy roster. Those are the people who I want helping the NFBC decide its agenda, whether we are on the same side of an issue or not. It's not necessarily about money invested (as I pointed out in my original post), but about time, energy, and most importantly commitment. Those on these boards have that without question.

[Glenneration X]

At least my vote and for that matter anyone elses, in Govt or local elections carries the same weight as anyone elses, whether they are just a Bus Driver or CEO of Goldman Sachs.

PS...If you truly believe that a bus driver's "vote" counts as much as that of the CEO of Goldman Sachs, I think you still have a lot to learn about the American political system, let alone what it counts for in any business setting.

[joshguy]

At least my vote and for that matter anyone elses, in Govt or local elections carries the same weight as anyone elses, whether they are just a Bus Driver or CEO of Goldman Sachs.

PS...If you truly believe that a bus driver's "vote" counts as much as that of the CEO of Goldman Sachs, I think you still have a lot to learn about the American political system, let alone what it counts for in any business setting.

Sure does, how did Obama get elected? Of course then all the bills and laws go the way of the rich but the little guy, when motivated enough, will at least decide who gets to power.

[Glenneration X]

At least my vote and for that matter anyone elses, in Govt or local elections carries the same weight as anyone elses, whether they are just a Bus Driver or CEO of Goldman Sachs.

PS...If you truly believe that a bus driver's "vote" counts as much as that of the CEO of Goldman Sachs, I think you still have a lot to learn about the American political system, let alone what it counts for in any business setting.

Sure does, how did Obama get elected? Of course then all the bills and laws go the way of the rich but the little guy, when motivated enough, will at least decide who gets to power.

Oprah and the liberal elite.

All kidding aside, I'm done with politics for the night. We all believe what we believe.

[Steel Lugnuts]

M. Moore - TJ surgery!

[Glenneration X]

Might as well get back to the original point of this thread. The hits keep on coming....

Cuddyer and Grandy join the hit list.

[joshguy]

Might as well get back to the original point of this thread. The hits keep on coming....

Cuddyer and Grandy join the hit list.

+ kimbrel

all of the top closers have been a crap shoot this year.

[KJ Duke]

Might as well get back to the original point of this thread. The hits keep on coming....

Cuddyer and Grandy join the hit list.

+ kimbrel

all of the top closers have been a crap shoot this year.

Meanwhile, the Fernando Rodney/Tommy Hunter teams are livin' large.

[Wolfpac]

More pain for the Maicer Izturis owners - OUT 2-3 months with LCL injury

ETA - including three main event teams who just added him last night

Im happy i cut him last night for Schoop...not that Schoop is a world beater, but healthy yes

[Outlaw]

At least my vote and for that matter anyone elses, in Govt or local elections carries the same weight as anyone elses, whether they are just a Bus Driver or CEO of Goldman Sachs.

PS...If you truly believe that a bus driver's "vote" counts as much as that of the CEO of Goldman Sachs, I think you still have a lot to learn about the American political system, let alone what it counts for in any business setting.

LOL - proved my point, I guess that is how things are decided here too, this world of Fantasy... I'll be the first one to show anyone who asks, how Blankfein and the Vampire Squid are the most corrupt pricks in the US.

But back to the injuries..Lagares- pulled hamstring...

[Outlaw]

Warning: Don't read if you don't like long posts: I wasn't even going to post this info, but Greg made mention of STATS DL data a while ago and he was correct in disputing some other DL data that some poster, posted, but there is more to the whole story.

MLB is aware that the Injury Hits will keep coming too and that the spike and rash of injuries occurring now is just the tip of the iceberg. They have data that shows this is the first wave of players based on birth dates/age modeling, reaching pro ball and the majors, where a lot of the injuries are the direct result of some very distinct factors, biggest being PED use among young kids, ages 12-18, travel ball/showcase participation/overuse, in addition to playing HS ball, LL before HS, too much weight training and PEDS use in the professional ranks. Even the best college players are playing full summer schedules the past 10 years, such as Cape Cod, Northwest, Alaskan, CCL, etc, so they are playing non stop from January until August, in addition to Fall ball programs.

The issue as related to PEDS and weight training, is that muscle and strength increases dramatically in the kids, but the tendons and ligaments cannot support the additional strength and power, because they naturally lag behind in development, meaning they develop at normal rate and are damaged over a period of years by the increased stress put on them by more muscle and strength/power. Eventually they, will rip, tear, wear out. Its just not related to pitchers either, its hamstrings, Obliques/rib cage injuries, joints, shoulders. MLB is now starting to work/working with the doctors, the various youth leagues, travel programs and school programs to establish guidelines on how to address the issue, trying get the kids off of all the juice, developing education and training programs, establishing playing guidelines based on age and how much and often a kid should play. Also attempting to develop national databases for all the youth programs to use to catch kids playing in different leagues at the same time, where overuse causes harm to the kids. MLB knows they have a long road ahead of them in dealing with the injury problem and it will take years to cut down the rising injury trend.

The heart of the problem, is that there are effectively no ways to stop the PED/HGH/juicing among youth until they get to college or pro ball. This is just another price MLB is paying for ignoring the PED problem for as long as they did and promoting the all the juicers like they did in the 90's early 2000's. The kids and some parents know, and if the parents don't know, the kids know and they know how to fool mom and dad too, get on the juice and they will hit the ball better and farther, and they will throw 10 mph faster, so instead of HS pitchers throwing 85 like that did forever prior to 1995, almost every HS team has a kid or 2 that can throw 90 or higher. I have seen kids age 16 throwing 90-92 over the past 10 years. That was unheard of prior to 2000.

So who is next, Wacha, Ventura, Wheeler, Fernandez, Perez? Just matter of time for most of them probably. It was interesting that Matt Moore had a sore elbow last season, that shut him down for a few weeks. He effectively got another approx 50 innings out of his elbow before it blew out.

For any parents or dads interested, One of a few excellent recent studies performed:

http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/early/20 ... 24699.full Risk-Prone Pitching Activities and Injuries in Youth Baseball Study

“If a 24-year-old in the pros blows out an elbow, then the question is, did it start when he was 15?” says Glenn Fleisig, a biomechanics expert who works in conjunction with noted orthopedic surgeon Dr. James Andrews. “And the answer is, probably.” Fleisig, the research director for the American Sports Medicine Institute in Birmingham, Ala., worked on a study that followed 500 pitchers for 10 years, starting at age 12. “We found, for sure, that kids who pitched more than 100 innings in a year were more likely to have surgery,” Fleisig said. “It was a statistical, very strong finding that if you pitched too much you had a higher chance of getting hurt.” There were other factors, like mechanics, but Fleisig found that a heavy workload in youth was the strongest. Yankees reliever Shawn Kelley, who has undergone Tommy John surgery twice, has copious anecdotal evidence to support Fleisig’s findings.

Although MLB uses companies like STATS Inc to provide them DL injury data, they instituted their own Injury Surveillance Tracking system in 2010. Every team is required to participate. MLB will not talk or discuss much about this new system. But it was implemented because of rising injuries, Associated costs/loss in relation to player salaries, PEDS use, and the new PEDS testing rules instituted in 2009.

Below is the data from the 2012 season. 2011 saw a 8% increase in their data over 2010. 2012 saw a 13% increase over 2011. 2013 data is not out yet, but someone told me it was up another 12% over 2012.

Public DL data is for the press and for individual team roster management in season. The New MLB STS system tracks all injuries public or not. Ever wonder why a pitcher skips a start, a player gets a day off for rest or multiple days off, or is a little sore, like Pedroia and Jeter now, an injury is why. MLB knows the trends, they now have 4 years of their own data. This data is MLB rostered players. The data, albeit not as comprehensive from the minor affiliates is setting off all sorts of alarms in MLB and worse than the MLB data. Some players don't go on the DL, when in fact they should. MLB is considering a 7 day DL for all injuries, not just concussions. MLB now has over 200 employees, each team has some and some in the MLB main offices, collecting the injury data daily.

Public DL List MLB MLB STS data
Total Injuries DL List 504 MLB STS data 1053
Total Days DL List 29,706 MLB STS data 35,258
Pitcher Shoulder Injuries DL List 78 MLB STS data 164
Pitcher Shoulder Days DL List 5,866 MLB STS data 6516
Pitcher Elbow Injuries DL List 100 MLB STS data 161
Pitcher Elbow Days DL List 9,439 MLB STS data 11309

I bet no one really knew there were an additional 61 MLB pitchers with elbow problems in 2012 or 86 other MLB pitchers with shoulder problems. Ever wonder why a good pitcher blows up every once in a while or skips a turn?

Injury Rates Avg DL Days
Starting Pitchers 50.3% 65.3 days
Relief Pitchers 32.6% 61.3 Days
All Pitchers 39.2% 62.7 Days
Non-Pitchers 33.6% 45.5 Days

Approx Dollars lost to injury- 2012- approx. $500 million dollars - 7% of Total MLB revenue. The cost of injuries literally is out of control for MLB and the teams. When the stars don't play, or local fan favorites, Teams take a hit on revenues, in addition to the associated costs of the injured player.

So when one wants to spend their hard earned money playing fantasy, one can look at it becoming more and more luck on the injury factor as to to how any fantasy team will do. Hr, RBI, K's are just one part of the Fantasy data equation these days. The problem we all have is we will never know the true injury data in real time, let alone probably never. So when we put a player in our lineup and he doesn't play we moan and really have no idea other than the day of rest excuse. Think the innings limit is some BS excuse, think again, MLB/Teams literally are now able to predict injuries and when they will occur, using all IP data that is known on a pitcher. They don't know the exact age or time, because of untracked IP prior to turning to pro, but they know what the data is telling them. MLB and the Doctors all know the causes too, correcting them all is a long term work in progress though.

Personally I would not be surprised if they cannot get a handle on the injury issue, and that miracle drugs from the PEDS/HGH family of cocktails will someday be approved and used to keep players on the field and probably with little regard for the long term effects on the players after they are done playing and that will be the sad consequence. It's all about the money, not just in real baseball but in Fantasy too.

So for those that don't think DL options are warranted or some tweaks to roster rules in Fantasy, well I suggest it is indeed time to consider it, but here at the NFBC, its not up to me. I got clued into this Tracking system last year. I could show you some analysis that I have done that will probably be damn close to the amount of injuries and DL time for this current season, both public and MLB STS, but I'm not interested in getting ripped for speculating. All I'll say is buckle up for a rough season and have some fun moaning about all the injuries and players not playing.

[EWeaver]

They have data that shows this is the first wave of players based on birth dates/age modeling, reaching pro ball and the majors, where a lot of the injuries are the direct result of some very distinct factors, biggest being PED use among young kids, ages 12-18,

Interesting, and potentially very scary.

Two questions for you:
(1) Is there any data on the % of kids 12-18 playing ball and using PEDs, and
(2) Which PEDs are they using / most common?

Thanks if you have this info. Otherwise, good read.

[Outlaw]

They have data that shows this is the first wave of players based on birth dates/age modeling, reaching pro ball and the majors, where a lot of the injuries are the direct result of some very distinct factors, biggest being PED use among young kids, ages 12-18,

Interesting, and potentially very scary.

Two questions for you:
(1) Is there any data on the % of kids 12-18 playing ball and using PEDs, and
(2) Which PEDs are they using / most common?

Thanks if you have this info. Otherwise, good read.

Eweaver,

One of the best places for PEDS use information on kids is the Taylor Hooten foundation, which works very close with MLB and who MLB supports. Even the Yankees hopped on board as supporter last year. There is some great information there, start with FAQ. I suggest to every parent I ever speak to, to check it out.

http://taylorhooton.org/

I've been on the ballfields of California, for the last 20 years or so, every level, its fairly easy these days to spot what kids are probably/might be using, has been for about 10 of those 20 years. One of my friends coaches one of the top Collegiate summer teams here in California and occasionally, I'll ask him what kids are using, because some tend to use only after the college season is over and he'll tell me well probably that kid, probably that kid and so on. He doesn't know for sure either, but he knows the signs too. The ones who use are the ones that hit the ball better, harder and farther than anyone else and the pitchers are the ones who throw in the 90's. Taking it one step further, look at any HS team and they'll be some kids ripped at age 16/17 and their other teammates look normal. They'll almost always have more acne and zits, their necks will be larger, they just look different than the avg 16/17 yr old. I'm not going to label every kid that looks that way as a PED user, but combined with the advisors/handlers/ performance trainers hanging around the kids, it all adds up when you see it. The info on the Hooten website goes into it all too. 5-10% may not seem like a lot, but it equates to millions of kids, but those are the ones who get scouted, drafted, recruited by major colleges and the kids who do it fair, they literally have little or no chance and thats the sad part. Sure a good HS player who plays it fair will get a ride to some small D2/3 school, sometimes a D1, but after college the dream is over generally. Again I will not label every kid, or any pro who makes it, but this problem was years in the making and its being borne out now in the Major Leagues.

Its interesting to see too what MLB organizations still employ a majority of "older" scouts, the same organizations who have the most injuries year in and year out, Yankees, Braves.. IMO They see performance and don't factor in potential PEDS use or don't know the signs. The organizations that generally employ much younger scouts 25-45, like the A's, Royals, Astro's they are at the bottom of the injury statistics the past 5 years. Now thats not hard analysis, just something I picked up the last few years. Shoot, there are still some scouts out there that scouted players from the 70's, some can hardly walk anymore, but even those guys will talk about how much bigger, faster and stronger the kids are these days.

Not to revisit the PEDs mess from last year, but the clinics, including Biogenesis, were not just supplying the pros, but the HS and younger kids too, parents even bought/buy the stuff for their kids. There are multiple Federal Grand Jurys investigating the Suppliers and the entire legal and illegal supply distribution system throughout the US in regards to PEDS, as well as the professional athlete buyers of the PEDS. Some were already underway prior to BioGen and one in Miami was born from the MLB Biogenesis investigation. Very recently MLB was subpoenaed by Grand Juries to turn over everything they had compiled from their years long investigations and they quietly complied, including all names found to have used, admitting to using or suspected of using. Drug companies, suppliers, clinics all over the US, all have been subpoenaed over time by these Grand Jurys. They slowly are connecting all the dots I would suspect. Old Tony B, evidently has been providing a roadmap for the Feds too. I heard there were over 100 names MLB turned over. I also know the NFL has been cooperating. We shall see what happens. I do know Grand Jurys, US attorneys can take years to deliver indictments and make arrests/charges. I suspect a few athletes might get charged, like an Arod, but most probably not, but their problem may well lie in having to give testimony, that eventually becomes public and causes them issues with their sport. I have also heard that some MLB and other pro athletes/players have also been subpoenaed, don't know names or how many.