Thomas stats really bear this out, he scored more(39) times on his own HR's than he did on all other AB's (including walks!) combined(38). Thomas also has a 114-77 rbi to run ratio, runners on first and third with two out I want him swinging at anything close. In that situation a walk wouldn't make him a base clogger, just another LOB that heads back to the dugout after Kielty(sorry to pick on you Bobby, but your hair is kind of freaky) pops out behind him. Oh, there is no question that slow running is a detriment. It is more about how often Thomas clogs the bases and prevents Kielty from scoring and though I'll grant you that Thomas is slower than Ortiz, Crisp could beat both of them wearing a potato sack. But somehow he doesn't score any less with Ortiz on.
Also, the article doesn't say this, but I'd suggest that Crisp will score even more often because the guy in front of him isn't making outs and that will get him several more at bats over the course of a season, i.e. if Ortiz walks four times in a game that is at least four more at bats the Sox will get at the end of the game probably gaining Crisp one more at bat.
Tex, Derek Lee: Where Do They Go In 2007?
Tex, Derek Lee: Where Do They Go In 2007?
Chance favors the prepared mind.
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Cherokee Nation
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Tex, Derek Lee: Where Do They Go In 2007?
Greg,
Sounds like if one of the team owners (in this majority opinion) in the NFBC gets a cold they go in for a good bleeding......because before modern medicine a good bleeding was the cure for many illnesses....and since a bleeding is what they did, and they did it first, and they are more comfortable with it.............I hear what you're saying Greg, but you know what......somebody has to do it (any field ) right the first time before the right way becomes the accepted norm...why not the NFBC ? Why not fix this obvious flaw now while the league is still a todler, before this becomes a really, really big time national event. I'm in either way, but why simply conform to a flaw for the sake of conformity. You've been so bold about everything else in your vision
Sounds like if one of the team owners (in this majority opinion) in the NFBC gets a cold they go in for a good bleeding......because before modern medicine a good bleeding was the cure for many illnesses....and since a bleeding is what they did, and they did it first, and they are more comfortable with it.............I hear what you're saying Greg, but you know what......somebody has to do it (any field ) right the first time before the right way becomes the accepted norm...why not the NFBC ? Why not fix this obvious flaw now while the league is still a todler, before this becomes a really, really big time national event. I'm in either way, but why simply conform to a flaw for the sake of conformity. You've been so bold about everything else in your vision
Remember the Constitution and the freedoms we used to have
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Cherokee Nation
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Tex, Derek Lee: Where Do They Go In 2007?
Kielty ?
Kielty can't be running the bases....he's too busy hanging out in dark corners getting his manager fired
Kielty can't be running the bases....he's too busy hanging out in dark corners getting his manager fired
Remember the Constitution and the freedoms we used to have
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Greg Ambrosius
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Tex, Derek Lee: Where Do They Go In 2007?
Originally posted by Cherokee Nation:
Greg,
Sounds like if one of the team owners (in this majority opinion) in the NFBC gets a cold they go in for a good bleeding......because before modern medicine a good bleeding was the cure for many illnesses....and since a bleeding is what they did, and they did it first, and they are more comfortable with it.............I hear what you're saying Greg, but you know what......somebody has to do it (any field ) right the first time before the right way becomes the accepted norm...why not the NFBC ? Why not fix this obvious flaw now while the league is still a todler, before this becomes a really, really big time national event. I'm in either way, but why simply conform to a flaw for the sake of conformity. You've been so bold about everything else in your vision I don't consider using BA instead of OBP a flaw, I'm just saying that walks aren't valued as strongly as they should be in fantasy baseball. Using OBP would eliminate that perceived flaw, but again runs is one category that should award high OBP performers, so it's not totally lost. I do know that making OBP a category instead of BA would change the off-season thinking of all of our NFBC participants, probably 90 percent of whom have never competed with OBP as a Rotisserie category. It's a different dynamic, indeed, and I know that first-hand.
Again, it's a solid topic of discussion, but I'm not sure I'm convinced that the NFBC main event needs to be the place to change the fantasy baseball world on this subject. Satellite leagues can accomplish that for now if the demand is there.
Greg,
Sounds like if one of the team owners (in this majority opinion) in the NFBC gets a cold they go in for a good bleeding......because before modern medicine a good bleeding was the cure for many illnesses....and since a bleeding is what they did, and they did it first, and they are more comfortable with it.............I hear what you're saying Greg, but you know what......somebody has to do it (any field ) right the first time before the right way becomes the accepted norm...why not the NFBC ? Why not fix this obvious flaw now while the league is still a todler, before this becomes a really, really big time national event. I'm in either way, but why simply conform to a flaw for the sake of conformity. You've been so bold about everything else in your vision I don't consider using BA instead of OBP a flaw, I'm just saying that walks aren't valued as strongly as they should be in fantasy baseball. Using OBP would eliminate that perceived flaw, but again runs is one category that should award high OBP performers, so it's not totally lost. I do know that making OBP a category instead of BA would change the off-season thinking of all of our NFBC participants, probably 90 percent of whom have never competed with OBP as a Rotisserie category. It's a different dynamic, indeed, and I know that first-hand.
Again, it's a solid topic of discussion, but I'm not sure I'm convinced that the NFBC main event needs to be the place to change the fantasy baseball world on this subject. Satellite leagues can accomplish that for now if the demand is there.
Greg Ambrosius
Founder, National Fantasy Baseball Championship
General Manager, Consumer Fantasy Games at SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @GregAmbrosius
Founder, National Fantasy Baseball Championship
General Manager, Consumer Fantasy Games at SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @GregAmbrosius
Tex, Derek Lee: Where Do They Go In 2007?
Originally posted by Cherokee Nation:
Greg,
Sounds like if one of the team owners (in this majority opinion) in the NFBC gets a cold they go in for a good bleeding......because before modern medicine a good bleeding was the cure for many illnesses....and since a bleeding is what they did, and they did it first, and they are more comfortable with it.............I hear what you're saying Greg, but you know what......somebody has to do it (any field ) right the first time before the right way becomes the accepted norm...why not the NFBC ? Why not fix this obvious flaw now while the league is still a todler, before this becomes a really, really big time national event. I'm in either way, but why simply conform to a flaw for the sake of conformity. You've been so bold about everything else in your vision Does someone have the number for 911? We need the metaphor police in here!
Greg,
Sounds like if one of the team owners (in this majority opinion) in the NFBC gets a cold they go in for a good bleeding......because before modern medicine a good bleeding was the cure for many illnesses....and since a bleeding is what they did, and they did it first, and they are more comfortable with it.............I hear what you're saying Greg, but you know what......somebody has to do it (any field ) right the first time before the right way becomes the accepted norm...why not the NFBC ? Why not fix this obvious flaw now while the league is still a todler, before this becomes a really, really big time national event. I'm in either way, but why simply conform to a flaw for the sake of conformity. You've been so bold about everything else in your vision Does someone have the number for 911? We need the metaphor police in here!
Chance favors the prepared mind.
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Tradesman Kettleers
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Tex, Derek Lee: Where Do They Go In 2007?
I'll give one VALID reason for using BA over OBP in this contest. It has been stated that the NFBC wishes to expand to a greater number of teams in the near future. In order to do this, NFBC must attract new participants while retaining previous participants. The available pool of partcipants is already constrained to a degree by the Costs of participation. Do you wish to further constrain potential participation by placing another hurdle? For me personally, this was my first NFBC. I had never drafted in this format and the fact that there were 15 teams in each league were two obstacles to overcome. For me, a category with which I had never played would have been a deal breaker.
I do agree that OBP,from a "purist" perspective (my term), would be more favorable to me. I would have no problem changing my evaluation of players based on a BA vs. OBP category change. Adam Dunn comes to mind immediately. And having had Bobby Abreu this year, I can see clearly the differences between BA and OBP. But, finding an OBP league to participate in prior to investing time and effort in the NFBC is problematic. To ask people to invest the time,money, and effort required for the NFBC you MUST appeal to the broadest pool of potential participants available. This is ONE valid reason for having BA over OBP in this particular contest.
I do agree that OBP,from a "purist" perspective (my term), would be more favorable to me. I would have no problem changing my evaluation of players based on a BA vs. OBP category change. Adam Dunn comes to mind immediately. And having had Bobby Abreu this year, I can see clearly the differences between BA and OBP. But, finding an OBP league to participate in prior to investing time and effort in the NFBC is problematic. To ask people to invest the time,money, and effort required for the NFBC you MUST appeal to the broadest pool of potential participants available. This is ONE valid reason for having BA over OBP in this particular contest.
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Chest Rockwell
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Tex, Derek Lee: Where Do They Go In 2007?
No chance I would join here for the first time if it was OBP.
I have to adjust to 15 rounds, 30 man rosters, no trades, FAAB bidding and now a new category.
Does everyone have to make all of those adjustments already- probably not. If you add in adjustments with regards to strategy I can live with that and adjust. If you now make me have to analyze a completely different set of stats that is too much and I will just pass.
I see no chance in hell Greg would make this move in the near future, if he did I am 100% sure it would be detrimental to the growth of this contest.
I have to adjust to 15 rounds, 30 man rosters, no trades, FAAB bidding and now a new category.
Does everyone have to make all of those adjustments already- probably not. If you add in adjustments with regards to strategy I can live with that and adjust. If you now make me have to analyze a completely different set of stats that is too much and I will just pass.
I see no chance in hell Greg would make this move in the near future, if he did I am 100% sure it would be detrimental to the growth of this contest.
Tex, Derek Lee: Where Do They Go In 2007?
Let's get back on topic.
D.Lee and Tex just e-mailed Greg and want to know why their checks are so large. :rolleyes:
D.Lee and Tex just e-mailed Greg and want to know why their checks are so large. :rolleyes:
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Cherokee Nation
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Tex, Derek Lee: Where Do They Go In 2007?
There was not one valid reason given why the more accurate measurement OBP is ignored and the less accurate BA is used.
"Clogging up the bases" ? I'll ask Rickey Henderson who is # 2 all time in walks about his base clogging.
That long winded babbling rant about wins, saves, heaven and earth, tides, cloud formations and other silly spin is not worth responding to.....next time address the question....here again is the question...
Why is BA used by the NFBC when OBP is the more accurate measurement of the intent of that category ?
Don't need barometer readings or physic predictions....would just like one valid reason why BA is used over OBP. Would love to be able to draft quality players who don't get punished because they are so good they get pitched around and draw walks. Getting on base via walk is a positive contribution to ones MLB team and should not be a punishment for my NFBC team.
It's a glaring flaw and the only legitimate argument in favor of using BA is that the people who play in the NFBC are more comfortable using the wrong category.
If this were a debate, yall just got shut out
"Clogging up the bases" ? I'll ask Rickey Henderson who is # 2 all time in walks about his base clogging.
That long winded babbling rant about wins, saves, heaven and earth, tides, cloud formations and other silly spin is not worth responding to.....next time address the question....here again is the question...
Why is BA used by the NFBC when OBP is the more accurate measurement of the intent of that category ?
Don't need barometer readings or physic predictions....would just like one valid reason why BA is used over OBP. Would love to be able to draft quality players who don't get punished because they are so good they get pitched around and draw walks. Getting on base via walk is a positive contribution to ones MLB team and should not be a punishment for my NFBC team.
It's a glaring flaw and the only legitimate argument in favor of using BA is that the people who play in the NFBC are more comfortable using the wrong category.
If this were a debate, yall just got shut out
Remember the Constitution and the freedoms we used to have
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Liquidhippo
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Tex, Derek Lee: Where Do They Go In 2007?
I've read numerous valid, well thought ought reasons, from Greg and others, why BA is used over OBP. I agree with them.
Now, to unhijack this thread again....where do Tex and Lee go? I dunno, but it's too high for me wherever it is, as I have a feeling it'll be too high for the risk that they carry. I took Tex this year in one league and got away with it. It felt like I had drafted Travis Lee in the first round for the first half of the season.
Now, to unhijack this thread again....where do Tex and Lee go? I dunno, but it's too high for me wherever it is, as I have a feeling it'll be too high for the risk that they carry. I took Tex this year in one league and got away with it. It felt like I had drafted Travis Lee in the first round for the first half of the season.
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Cherokee Nation
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Tex, Derek Lee: Where Do They Go In 2007?
"Also, fyi, Podsednik is famous for getting everything in the strike zone precisely because pitchers know that he never swings at bad pitches and can't hit for average. Note that he saw 4.07 pitches per plate apperance this past year and is a perennial leader in that category."
Sorry to correct your mistruth but Bobby Abreu is the "perennial leader" in PPPA.
In 2003 Podsednik finished 21st
In 2004 Podsednik finished 33rd
In 2005 Podsednik finished 47th
In 2006 Podsednik finished 27th
Podsednik is the perennial leader in PPPA in your imagination but not in reality. Better to use facts when debating.
And now hurry up and get back to that riveting topic of where to draft Derek Lee and Mark Teixeira......hurry up...he's losin it man
Sorry to correct your mistruth but Bobby Abreu is the "perennial leader" in PPPA.
In 2003 Podsednik finished 21st
In 2004 Podsednik finished 33rd
In 2005 Podsednik finished 47th
In 2006 Podsednik finished 27th
Podsednik is the perennial leader in PPPA in your imagination but not in reality. Better to use facts when debating.
And now hurry up and get back to that riveting topic of where to draft Derek Lee and Mark Teixeira......hurry up...he's losin it man
Remember the Constitution and the freedoms we used to have
Tex, Derek Lee: Where Do They Go In 2007?
Originally posted by Cherokee Nation:
"Also, fyi, Podsednik is famous for getting everything in the strike zone precisely because pitchers know that he never swings at bad pitches and can't hit for average. Note that he saw 4.07 pitches per plate apperance this past year and is a perennial leader in that category."
Sorry to correct your mistruth but Bobby Abreu is the "perennial leader" in PPPA.
In 2003 Podsednik finished 21st
In 2004 Podsednik finished 33rd
In 2005 Podsednik finished 47th
In 2006 Podsednik finished 27th
Podsednik is the perennial leader in PPPA in your imagination but not in reality. Better to use facts when debating.
And now hurry up and get back to that riveting topic of where to draft Derek Lee and Mark Teixeira......hurry up...he's losin it man You're only proving my point. I said 'a leader' not 'the leader.' There are probably 250 guys who qualify in that category and the lowest Pods finished in four years was 47th. A person of your obvious intellect knows that a guy who gets over 4 pitches per at bat knows how to take a bad one.
Also, w/r/t the reasons people posted about ba over obp, please remember that when debating you can invalidate a reason by demonstrating why it is not valid--not by throwing out some vague statement like "not one valid reason listed." If you do that, there is a chance people won't be so dismissive of you.
[ October 29, 2006, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: bjoak ]
"Also, fyi, Podsednik is famous for getting everything in the strike zone precisely because pitchers know that he never swings at bad pitches and can't hit for average. Note that he saw 4.07 pitches per plate apperance this past year and is a perennial leader in that category."
Sorry to correct your mistruth but Bobby Abreu is the "perennial leader" in PPPA.
In 2003 Podsednik finished 21st
In 2004 Podsednik finished 33rd
In 2005 Podsednik finished 47th
In 2006 Podsednik finished 27th
Podsednik is the perennial leader in PPPA in your imagination but not in reality. Better to use facts when debating.
And now hurry up and get back to that riveting topic of where to draft Derek Lee and Mark Teixeira......hurry up...he's losin it man You're only proving my point. I said 'a leader' not 'the leader.' There are probably 250 guys who qualify in that category and the lowest Pods finished in four years was 47th. A person of your obvious intellect knows that a guy who gets over 4 pitches per at bat knows how to take a bad one.
Also, w/r/t the reasons people posted about ba over obp, please remember that when debating you can invalidate a reason by demonstrating why it is not valid--not by throwing out some vague statement like "not one valid reason listed." If you do that, there is a chance people won't be so dismissive of you.
[ October 29, 2006, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: bjoak ]
Chance favors the prepared mind.
Tex, Derek Lee: Where Do They Go In 2007?
The biggest reason that OPS shouldn't be used is that your average sports fan most likely can't relate to it. Most dads can't tell you what their star kids OPS is for his high school team. Although OPS is a better value indicator than BA, BA is just more familiar. Anyone can tell you that Cobb is the all time BA leader, but who is the all time OPS leader? I would bet that 95% of all baseball fans would miss this one or get it right by guessing lucky (I, for one, don't know the answer off the top of my head either!) OPS just isn't used in day to day baseball conversation, historical comparisons, or in movie dialouge (Don't remember anyone saying "Roy Hobbs is remarkable...he had a .438 OPS in the minors and that should correlate into a very productive year here with the Knights...") Fantasy baseball is just that..a simple, pure form of owning your own team because you used to love to look at the stats on the back of your baseball cards. If you want a satalitte league that has OPS, that's fine..I'm sure it will probably fill up because if there's an opening, the baseball junkies will come. But the general public would look at the OPS and it would turn them off. I know I'm rambling, but here's one more point. Let's use football as an example...If a nationally advertised league was using "yards after catch" and another league was using "receiving yards", which do you think Joe Public would be more inclined to join? Yards after catch is probably a better indicator of a receivers skill than just receiving yards, but it's just not a traditional stat that the average person can relate to. The first and foremost factor that Greg and Tom need to look at is "Will Joe Public look at the rules of this league and think to himself "I bet I can win this"" If there are stats involved that Joe Public has to research to even have a clue who the league leaders are, I don't think he'll join.
Tex, Derek Lee: Where Do They Go In 2007?
Originally posted by Mudster:
The biggest reason that OPS shouldn't be used is that your average sports fan most likely can't relate to it. Most dads can't tell you what their star kids OPS is for his high school team. Although OPS is a better value indicator than BA, BA is just more familiar. Anyone can tell you that Cobb is the all time BA leader, but who is the all time OPS leader? I would bet that 95% of all baseball fans would miss this one or get it right by guessing lucky (I, for one, don't know the answer off the top of my head either!) OPS just isn't used in day to day baseball conversation, historical comparisons, or in movie dialouge (Don't remember anyone saying "Roy Hobbs is remarkable...he had a .438 OPS in the minors and that should correlate into a very productive year here with the Knights...") Fantasy baseball is just that..a simple, pure form of owning your own team because you used to love to look at the stats on the back of your baseball cards. If you want a satalitte league that has OPS, that's fine..I'm sure it will probably fill up because if there's an opening, the baseball junkies will come. But the general public would look at the OPS and it would turn them off. I know I'm rambling, but here's one more point. Let's use football as an example...If a nationally advertised league was using "yards after catch" and another league was using "receiving yards", which do you think Joe Public would be more inclined to join? Yards after catch is probably a better indicator of a receivers skill than just receiving yards, but it's just not a traditional stat that the average person can relate to. The first and foremost factor that Greg and Tom need to look at is "Will Joe Public look at the rules of this league and think to himself "I bet I can win this"" If there are stats involved that Joe Public has to research to even have a clue who the league leaders are, I don't think he'll join. I agree with all your points, save that I think the points made were about OBP rather than OPS (very different) and it's fairly easy to guess that the all time single season holder in OPS (and OBP) is Barry Bonds and he likely holds the career record there as well and I don't know that that is any more difficult a question than all time BA leader questions. I wouldn't guess Cobb. I want to say Ted Williams had the highest single-season BA then Ichiro and for a career I have no idea other than it might be one of the aforementioned players. I'm not huge on baseball history but I think to come out and say everyone knows this and not that is a bit obtuse.
The biggest reason that OPS shouldn't be used is that your average sports fan most likely can't relate to it. Most dads can't tell you what their star kids OPS is for his high school team. Although OPS is a better value indicator than BA, BA is just more familiar. Anyone can tell you that Cobb is the all time BA leader, but who is the all time OPS leader? I would bet that 95% of all baseball fans would miss this one or get it right by guessing lucky (I, for one, don't know the answer off the top of my head either!) OPS just isn't used in day to day baseball conversation, historical comparisons, or in movie dialouge (Don't remember anyone saying "Roy Hobbs is remarkable...he had a .438 OPS in the minors and that should correlate into a very productive year here with the Knights...") Fantasy baseball is just that..a simple, pure form of owning your own team because you used to love to look at the stats on the back of your baseball cards. If you want a satalitte league that has OPS, that's fine..I'm sure it will probably fill up because if there's an opening, the baseball junkies will come. But the general public would look at the OPS and it would turn them off. I know I'm rambling, but here's one more point. Let's use football as an example...If a nationally advertised league was using "yards after catch" and another league was using "receiving yards", which do you think Joe Public would be more inclined to join? Yards after catch is probably a better indicator of a receivers skill than just receiving yards, but it's just not a traditional stat that the average person can relate to. The first and foremost factor that Greg and Tom need to look at is "Will Joe Public look at the rules of this league and think to himself "I bet I can win this"" If there are stats involved that Joe Public has to research to even have a clue who the league leaders are, I don't think he'll join. I agree with all your points, save that I think the points made were about OBP rather than OPS (very different) and it's fairly easy to guess that the all time single season holder in OPS (and OBP) is Barry Bonds and he likely holds the career record there as well and I don't know that that is any more difficult a question than all time BA leader questions. I wouldn't guess Cobb. I want to say Ted Williams had the highest single-season BA then Ichiro and for a career I have no idea other than it might be one of the aforementioned players. I'm not huge on baseball history but I think to come out and say everyone knows this and not that is a bit obtuse.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
Tex, Derek Lee: Where Do They Go In 2007?
Just for the record, (I researched this on mlb.com), here are the top 5 all-time OBS:
1. Babe Ruth 1.159 (.469 + .690)
2. Ted Williams 1.116 (.482 + .634)
3. Lou Gehrig 1.074 (.442 + .632)
4. Barry Bonds 1.051 (.443 + .608)
5. Jimmy Foxx 1.034 (.425 + .609)
No surprise that the greatest player of all time is easily first...and Ruth didn't cheat!
[ November 12, 2006, 06:17 AM: Message edited by: Nevadaman ]
1. Babe Ruth 1.159 (.469 + .690)
2. Ted Williams 1.116 (.482 + .634)
3. Lou Gehrig 1.074 (.442 + .632)
4. Barry Bonds 1.051 (.443 + .608)
5. Jimmy Foxx 1.034 (.425 + .609)
No surprise that the greatest player of all time is easily first...and Ruth didn't cheat!
[ November 12, 2006, 06:17 AM: Message edited by: Nevadaman ]