Does anybody think the 5x5 method is too simple?

Crazy Like a Fox · Post by **Crazy Like a Fox** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:24 pm

I play in a league every year with the same people.

We carry 22 overall categories; 11 - pitching and 11 - hitting.

offense = homers, rbi's, hits, total bases, errors, stolen bases, runs, strikeouts, walks, on-base% and batting average.

pitching = wins, losses, strikeouts, CG, walks, saves, homers allowed, holds, whip, K/9 and e.r.a.

There is so much strategy in our league it's ridiculous. And if you think it's tough to win..I've won 2 out of the last 3 years. Extremely competitive, strategies are endless. Not for the beginner. It is a money league but I find that the 5x5 can be a little boring compared to the 11x11 system.

Fantasy baseball is growing to new heights, the 5x 5 is too basic in my opinion, and there simply isn't a whole lot of skill involved.

Is there anybody else out there who feels the standard 5x5 needs to be changed?

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:23 am

11x11? Thats all?

Lets really do it up this year and add balks, catchers interference, pickoffs, and HBP!

Walks, obp, and Batting Average are awfully redundant, same goes for K/9 and strikeouts. The strikeouts for offense and home runs given up categories are laughable.

The addition of more categories is akin to adding more cards in the middle of the table of a Texas Holdem game. It makes for more strategy, but it doesen't succeed in making it a better game.

Chest Rockwell · Post by **Chest Rockwell** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:41 am

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

11x11? Thats all?

Lets really do it up this year and add balks, catchers interference, pickoffs, and HBP!

Walks, obp, and Batting Average are awfully redundant, same goes for K/9 and strikeouts. The strikeouts for offense and home runs given up categories are laughable.

The addition of more categories is akin to adding more cards in the middle of the table of a Texas Holdem game. It makes for more strategy, but it doesen't succeed in making it a better game. Well Said!

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:48 am

Actually, I don't see where it adds any more strategy. There are so many correlations between the additional categories that you are not introducing any more unique strategies. You'd avoid or concentate on the same type of player you would in 5x5 as in 11x11. Furthermore, you would actually be introducing a greater luck element in 11x11, as not many would know how to properly value/rank the players thus would be making a guess, even more so than projections are really educated guesses as it already stands.

In other words, There are several sites where you can get reasonable 5x5 rankings. You would have to customize 11x11 rankings, which is great, assuming people really understood how to do it, which they don't. So either you do it yourself(probably incorrectly) or just guess.

There's already enough fate involved with the competition, going 11x11 AMPLIFIES it, it does not DIMINISH it as implied.

Chest Rockwell · Post by **Chest Rockwell** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:54 am

Originally posted by sportznuts:

I play in a league every year with the same people.

We carry 22 overall categories; 11 - pitching and 11 - hitting.

offense = homers, rbi's, hits, total bases, errors, stolen bases, runs, strikeouts, walks, on-base% and batting average.

pitching = wins, losses, strikeouts, CG, walks, saves, homers allowed, holds, whip, K/9 and e.r.a.

There is so much strategy in our league it's ridiculous. And if you think it's tough to win..I've won 2 out of the last 3 years. Extremely competitive, strategies are endless. Not for the beginner. It is a money league but I find that the 5x5 can be a little boring compared to the 11x11 system.

Fantasy baseball is growing to new heights, the 5x 5 is too basic in my opinion, and there simply isn't a whole lot of skill involved.

Is there anybody else out there who feels the standard 5x5 needs to be changed? I was wondering have you played the main event here before, I think an 11x11 is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard of, but I see your point on a 5x5 getting boring for you. I would encourage you to rather than get down on the format, increase your level of competition to make it more interesting- if you want to you have found the right place.

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:08 pm

Agreed. NFBC has brought together the best of the best. One of my concerns in 2005 was how do I fit in with these guys? Winning a local league is one thing. Winning against the other nfbc guys is quite another. Look at the track records and winnings of teams like Lollygaggers, C.C. Desperatos, and though he hasn't had much success in nfbc Air Lar has won big multiple times in CDM baseball games just to name a few of the great teams/players here.

Crazy Like a Fox · Post by **Crazy Like a Fox** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:01 pm

I understand some of your points. Some of the categories are redundant, I must admit. But it seems to me the difficulty goes way up when you add more categories. I can't tell you how great it is to have holds as a category which really adds value to the middle relievers. There really is much more strategy in play when you have 22 categories vs. 10.

I am not trying to belittle the 5x5, I just would like people to entertain the idea of having more categories to increase the skill in fantasy baseball.

All I can say is, once you try an 11x11, a 5x5 will seem so basic.

With the widespread use of the internet a 5x5 relies too much on luck. Let's make things more difficult, therefore raising the level of play.

I certainly don't mind if people disagree with my point of view, but there's gotta be somebody out there who thinks there needs to be a change in the standard fantasy baseball category format.

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:21 pm

Sportznuts, I have a question for you. Using the NFBC 15-team setup, who were the top 5 hitters and top 5 pitchers using your scoring system?

FWIW, there are many that agree with you and play 6x6 and even 7x7.

As for holds, there are two reasons why I personally do not care for the category. The first is it is not an official stat and different stat services have different definitions. Second, projecting holds is even more a crapshoot than wins and saves. Part of the skill for me is projecting a player then converting that projection to value within the league format. Projecting holds is more luck than skill, hence takes away, not adds skill to the competition.

Mr Dalrae · Post by **Mr Dalrae** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:42 am

A tip of the hat to DOUGHBOYS and Vander,your comments say it all.

Liquidhippo · Post by **Liquidhippo** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:36 am

I like the 5x5 format and don't believe its too simple. Additionally, the NFBC, in its wisdom, wouldn't consider changing the format. The industry is experiencing rapid growth. Too many people are familiar with 5x5, and too many publications use that as a basis for their projections. Changing the format would stunt that growth, not to mention that it would allienate most of its existing customer base...not gonna happen. That being said, there's nothing wrong with starting your own experimental league and setting it up according to your preferences. I tried a league recently that substituted .OBP for BA., but I'd never recommend that for a league such as the NFBC. Todd made some good points about the luck factor with holds and categories that are similar. Although I have wondered how errors, or some other fielding gauge, might effect the value of players.

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:37 am

Please don't mistake my argument for suggesting either

1. I have something against experimentation (quite the opposite for those that know me)

or

2. I think the present 5x5 system is the be-all-end-all method. OBP for BA is something I strongly favor. I like leagues that attempt to add more sabremetric categories and eliminate the more team oriented categories like wins, runs and RBI.

There is nothing wrong with adding value to middle relievers if you so desire, my suggestion would be to use something like K/9 or K/BB though, instead of holds.

My sole point is that I do not agree that this particular format involves increased skill over the standard 5x5. I do not believe there are more possible strategies due to the correlated categories and I humbly contend the complexity of the scoring system makes valuing players more a crapshoot than it already is. The terms "more of a crapshoot" and "greater skill" do not describe the same game.

Cherokee Nation · Post by **Cherokee Nation** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:34 pm

One thing those ripping on the concept haven't mentioned is that the "redundant" categories take the clout out of the insanely out of balance SBs and Saves that the flawed 5X5 system offers....but these are the same cats who are afraid to use the more realistic OBP over BA so you're wasting your time talking to them about anything involving change

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:20 pm

I agree.

OBP is very easy to understand, and rewards the better hitters.

Your goal is to not get an out...a walk should be valued more than the slight chance you get batted in.

~Lance

Spyhunter · Post by **Spyhunter** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 10:03 am

I think 11x11 is very redundant when the stats are all basically extentions of the others. But I think it would be great to find a Fantasy league that more closely matches real baseball. Things I think would would add:

1. ABs

2. IPs

I find it funny that in Baseball there are things like an AB requirement for batting average crown. The Ratio categories ignore that, especially for ERA/WHIP. To a great extent, it isnt' so bad on the hitting side, but for pitching have 2 or 5 categories based purely on ratio makes for abuse

Thoughts?

Spy

Crazy Like a Fox · Post by **Crazy Like a Fox** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 10:26 pm

There are a few redundant stats. walks/on-base percentage - strikeouts and K/9 - but that's it.

One advantage I use in this league is I can afford to punt stolen bases as it's 1 of 22 categories as opposed to 1 of 10.

I have to tell you guys, it's ALOT of work when you have to juggle 22 categories, but I've managed to come in 1st place twice in 3 years and the other year I ended up just out of the money. So people who say it's more of a "crapshoot", I don't know. I think it's just more work.

I also played in a 5x5 league and I spent about a quarter of the time I spend in my 11x11 league.

I do think a couple changes need to be made. The redundant stats need to be taken out to make it a 9x9 league.

Holds are really a great way to give more value to middle relievers. It is true from year to year holds are difficult to predict although there a few holds guys you can count on ala Shields, Wheeler, Linebrink. That's where the FA list becomes even more important.

I'm not a big fan of errors as a category but it does change the value of some players quite a bit. With Nomar playing 1st base, it's a real advantage that he qualified at shortstop last year. Some error prone players don't get picked up regardless of how hot they are.

I really like total bases as a category.

I certainly don't want to put down the 5x5 format, but I don't think it's the best format out there. Adding categories can only make things more difficult to juggle a roster therefore making hard work payoff. In my 11x11 league I spent atleast 2 hours per day studying my team, my opponent's, the FA list, and how I can improve my team in anyway possible. It's exhausting, but I love it.

I don't expect everybody to agree with me. I understand people are paying big money to play in the NFBC and they don't want to hear that their system isn't perfect, but hey, that's why we're on this message board. To learn.

I have already learned a few things from you guys and I am shocked by how incredibly articulate and intelligent most people are on this blog.

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:15 am

I think there is a difference between "more skill" and "more time".

I'll use the analogy of a Sunday crossword puzzle versus a daily one. The Sunday crossword does not take more skill, it just takes longer to do. The 11x11 league is like the Sunday crossword. Your using the same principles as with 5x5, how much does this guy help versus how much does he hurt, etc. You're juggling 11 cats whereas most juggle 5. Again, not harder to juggle 11 cats, just takes longer.

As someone whose niche is player valuation, I'll go back to my original contention that the draft/auction in the 11x11 league is more of a crapshoot than in 5x5, as not everyone will have a particularly accurate measure of the player's value in 11x11.

By means of example, I can tell you who I have rated as the top 5 hitters from 2006 and how much they earned in each category, can you do the same for 11x11?

headhunters · Post by **headhunters** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:07 am

ahhh- todd you made a good point- but used a bad anology. thrust me- when you juggle- the more you throw up- the harder it is. time has nothing to do with it. good point- bad analogy.

headhunters · Post by **headhunters** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:10 am

that was"tongue in cheek"

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:03 am

thrust me- I'd rather trust you

when you juggle- the more you throw up- the harder it is. time has nothing to do with it. good point- bad analogy. Doesn't this depend on what you are juggling? I'll take 11 tennis balls over 5 chainsaws anyday.

Crazy Like a Fox · Post by **Crazy Like a Fox** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:08 pm

I guess the easiest way to explain my point is...if I pick up a player on the FA list I must think about 11 categories instead of 5. Sound the same?

Edwards Kings · Post by **Edwards Kings** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:39 am

Originally posted by BigDog:

I guess the easiest way to explain my point is...if I pick up a player on the FA list I must think about 11 categories instead of 5. Sound the same? Does to me.

I have played both, and with exceptions (there are always a few players who are exceptions), the players who do well in the "basic" five (I wonder how many 4x4 proponents there are out there) usually do well in many of the additional five offensive categories (not including errors). For example, if the player can contribute to runs and BA in a 5x5 league, he will probably do will likewise in 40% (4 or 5) of the 11x11 league categories.

For Pitchers, the power/control arms are those at the highest premium in 5x5. The additional categories do not change that except to make the set-up guy a little more valuable than the good WHIP/ERA/Next in Line choice because of holds.

So, while I do not expect to find a player who will contribute in five categories for offense or four max for arms in the FAAB, neither will I find a guy who will contribute in 9 or 10 categories in an 11x11. When going to the FAAB, I am either gambling on a new player (rookie or off the injury list) or I am looking to find a better replacement for one of my hurt players and who can contribute (or at least not hurt) in a couple of categories, or I am looking for the two start pitcher for a rental. Most of the time the guy I pick up in a 5x5 will be the same guy I would pick up in a 11x11.

I am the guy who likes fantasy baseball over football because I believe the 26 weeks and the additional statistical research requires makes it more enjoyable. However, going from 5 x 5 to 11 x 11 is like adding more beer to a mug that is already full...it doesn't necessarily mean you get to enjoy more beer!

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:57 am

I guess the easiest way to explain my point is...if I pick up a player on the FA list I must think about 11 categories instead of 5. Sound the same? Exactly my point. You are not thinking any harder or using any different analytical tools. It just takes you longer to compare all the positives and negatives.

Crazy Like a Fox · Post by **Crazy Like a Fox** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:16 am

Your points are well made. I understand what you are saying. Maybe you guys are right. More time doesn't necessarily mean more skill. I have to admit, it feels harder to run an 11x11 team as opposed to a 5x5, but that's because I have to dedicate more time.

I see the light.

On a side note, I would love to have an NFBC champion come to our league to see what they can do...not a challenge, just an invite. We need 1 more player, $120 entry. If I end up behind, I swear to never critique the 5x5 ever again. It's probably my ego talking, but I doubt I'll lose.

Edwards Kings · Post by **Edwards Kings** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:35 am

Originally posted by BigDog:

Your points are well made. I understand what you are saying. Maybe you guys are right. More time doesn't necessarily mean more skill. I have to admit, it feels harder to run an 11x11 team as opposed to a 5x5, but that's because I have to dedicate more time.

I see the light.

On a side note, I would love to have an NFBC champion come to our league to see what they can do...not a challenge, just an invite. We need 1 more player, $120 entry. If I end up behind, I swear to never critique the 5x5 ever again. It's probably my ego talking, but I doubt I'll lose. Hey, Dog...you may have already done this, but why not toss your hat in the ring for the NFBC Main? We can always use one more person to stir up the pot!

Cooperstown · Post by **Cooperstown** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:19 am

11 x 11, how absurd.

Hey, I got it. Let's add a spot for Manager and draft 31. Then we'll add a category and call it "team wins". Wait, we better draft 32 so we can shuffle managers on teams with 5 games a week out and bring in ones on teams with 7 games.

I wonder what round Torre would go in? And if he's fired, do you drop $500 on his replacement?