Let's revisit Friday lineup changes for P

[Cocktails and Dreams]

Wow. You say big deal?
A team gets a benefit that YOU don't?
You say 'big deal' till it happens to YOU.
Then, of course, it becomes a stupid rule.
That it costs you money.
It happens more than you think it does and left alot of grumbling from those effected before.
What good is a rule that helps some, but not others?
Simple answer is that it doesn't make for a good rule at all.[/quote]

You don't know me too well if you think I will think a rule is stupid because I didn't benefit from it. If a pitcher is not on DL when lineup lock occurs and goes on it without pitching and can be replaced on Friday if he goes on the DL by Friday morning it seems like it would help avoid some zero's. If a team is slow getting a guy to the DL, then so be it. Big deal is right. It will at least help some folks. To suggest that I think this if fair only because it would have worked to my advantage is absurd.

[Cocktails and Dreams]

This is my second year playing in the Main Event...both years I've drafted 2 teams.
I really enjoy gambling.....poker and especially in year long baseball leagues.
I don't mind losing....it happens...your not going to win every time you sit down at the poker table. And your not going to win every baseball league..that's why I've been fielding 2 teams.

Losing because of luck....that's just part of the game....but losing because my players get hurt and I can't replace them in my lineup...that's really frustrating. Frustrating to the point where sometimes I don't want to come back to this game next year. Why is there a churn rate every year? You can contribute that to players feeling that they aren't getting a fair handshake because of injuries. That's the way I feel anyhow.

I love the idea of switching up your hitters on friday....it gives me options if someone gets hurt on Monday or Thursday or whenever. Do I sometimes stream hitters?....of course...I play match ups...do the moves sometimes backfire....so course.....and they could happen if you try to stream pitchers.

If you don't want to change the rules because people are afraid of streaming then I have news for you.....it happens every week...teams pick up 2 start pitchers every week. I don't think it's a secret.

Krys

Great post. My thoughts exactly.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Wow. You say big deal?
A team gets a benefit that YOU don't?
You say 'big deal' till it happens to YOU.
Then, of course, it becomes a stupid rule.
That it costs you money.
It happens more than you think it does and left alot of grumbling from those effected before.
What good is a rule that helps some, but not others?
Simple answer is that it doesn't make for a good rule at all.

You don't know me too well if you think I will think a rule is stupid because I didn't benefit from it. If a pitcher is not on DL when lineup lock occurs and goes on it without pitching and can be replaced on Friday if he goes on the DL by Friday morning it seems like it would help avoid some zero's. If a team is slow getting a guy to the DL, then so be it. Big deal is right. It will at least help some folks. To suggest that I think this if fair only because it would have worked to my advantage is absurd.[/quote]

My suggestion was not that at all.
My suggestion is that you want to put out one fire (zeroes for pitching) by creating another fire (an uneven rule that puts us at the mercy of MLB teams).
This uneven rule sounds better to you than zeroes.
A rule that did not work then, nor now.
Eventually, it would bite you or somebody in the ass because uneven rules tend to do that.
An uneven rule, in any game, IS a big deal.

I haven't seen any holes, loopholes, or uneveness in the rule up for debate.
Do you?

[Cocktails and Dreams]

Wow. You say big deal?
A team gets a benefit that YOU don't?
You say 'big deal' till it happens to YOU.
Then, of course, it becomes a stupid rule.
That it costs you money.
It happens more than you think it does and left alot of grumbling from those effected before.
What good is a rule that helps some, but not others?
Simple answer is that it doesn't make for a good rule at all.

You don't know me too well if you think I will think a rule is stupid because I didn't benefit from it. If a pitcher is not on DL when lineup lock occurs and goes on it without pitching and can be replaced on Friday if he goes on the DL by Friday morning it seems like it would help avoid some zero's. If a team is slow getting a guy to the DL, then so be it. Big deal is right. It will at least help some folks. To suggest that I think this if fair only because it would have worked to my advantage is absurd.

My suggestion was not that at all.
My suggestion is that you want to put out one fire (zeroes for pitching) by creating another fire (an uneven rule that puts us at the mercy of MLB teams).
This uneven rule sounds better to you than zeroes.
Eventually, it would bite you or somebody in the ass because uneven rules tend to do that.

I haven't seen any holes, loopholes, or uneveness in the rule up for debate.
Do you?[/quote]


No, I think it would be a fine rule change. The example Russ mentioned would not come into play as Betances would already be lineup locked. His decision to be in our out of the lineup would already have been determined when his game started. Anything to give us more flexibility is better IMO. I prefer any rules that put pitchers and batters on a more even playing field. Not sure why we have ability to stream batters but not pitchers.

[rockitsauce]

This is my second year playing in the Main Event...both years I've drafted 2 teams.
I really enjoy gambling.....poker and especially in year long baseball leagues.
I don't mind losing....it happens...your not going to win every time you sit down at the poker table. And your not going to win every baseball league..that's why I've been fielding 2 teams.

Losing because of luck....that's just part of the game....but losing because my players get hurt and I can't replace them in my lineup...that's really frustrating. Frustrating to the point where sometimes I don't want to come back to this game next year. Why is there a churn rate every year? You can contribute that to players feeling that they aren't getting a fair handshake because of injuries. That's the way I feel anyhow.

I love the idea of switching up your hitters on friday....it gives me options if someone gets hurt on Monday or Thursday or whenever. Do I sometimes stream hitters?....of course...I play match ups...do the moves sometimes backfire....so course.....and they could happen if you try to stream pitchers.

If you don't want to change the rules because people are afraid of streaming then I have news for you.....it happens every week...teams pick up 2 start pitchers every week. I don't think it's a secret.

Krys

Great post. My thoughts exactly.

I'm w/ these guys...put me down for team Freedom

[TOXIC ASSETS]

This one seems like common sense to me.
The rules should allow a pitcher who is hurt, to be replaced before weekend games as long as the pitcher you are replacing him with, has not thrown yet that week.

Could this create some other issues? Yes.
Is it better than doing nothing? Yes.

[gsjanoff]

I guess I'm just one of the unluckier owners in this contest.

I have been playing NFBC for 10 years, and I don't recall ever having healthy bodies on my bench I could swap in for a player who went on the DL midweek.

I just lost Ellsbury on a bunch of teams and hitter changes are valid on Friday, but of course I have no one to put in due to the other injuries already present, which at least on my teams, seem to be countless.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Wow. You say big deal?
A team gets a benefit that YOU don't?
You say 'big deal' till it happens to YOU.
Then, of course, it becomes a stupid rule.
That it costs you money.
It happens more than you think it does and left alot of grumbling from those effected before.
What good is a rule that helps some, but not others?
Simple answer is that it doesn't make for a good rule at all.

You don't know me too well if you think I will think a rule is stupid because I didn't benefit from it. If a pitcher is not on DL when lineup lock occurs and goes on it without pitching and can be replaced on Friday if he goes on the DL by Friday morning it seems like it would help avoid some zero's. If a team is slow getting a guy to the DL, then so be it. Big deal is right. It will at least help some folks. To suggest that I think this if fair only because it would have worked to my advantage is absurd.

My suggestion was not that at all.
My suggestion is that you want to put out one fire (zeroes for pitching) by creating another fire (an uneven rule that puts us at the mercy of MLB teams).
This uneven rule sounds better to you than zeroes.
Eventually, it would bite you or somebody in the ass because uneven rules tend to do that.

I haven't seen any holes, loopholes, or uneveness in the rule up for debate.
Do you?

No, I think it would be a fine rule change. The example Russ mentioned would not come into play as Betances would already be lineup locked. His decision to be in our out of the lineup would already have been determined when his game started. Anything to give us more flexibility is better IMO. I prefer any rules that put pitchers and batters on a more even playing field. Not sure why we have ability to stream batters but not pitchers.[/quote]


Chad,
Just to put the dl talk to rest, I remembered last night while lying in bed (I remember a time when I thought of other things while laying in bed ) why the dl was put to rest.
I remembered the WORST part about the dl rule.
In September, while we're trying to eke out every stat possible, Major League teams expand to 40.
When a player gets hurt in September, some teams go through the formality of putting the player on the disabled list, some do not.
If the Yankees choose to not call rookies up, they may put CC Sabathia on the disabled list.
If the Rockies have expanded to 40, they will choose not to put Jorge De La Rosa on the disabled list and use a rookie.
It played a huge part in how the dl for pitchers lacked as a viable rule for our game.

Like you, I am very much in favor of more flexibility with pitching.
Attempting to use the dl as the source for the rule, however, is not the way to go.

[Rog]

I very rarely have much time on Fridays to do hitting changes let alone pitching. I try to do as many moves as possible when possible.

And this is coming from an NFBC die-hard. This is definitely a concern that we'd hear from many others who are very busy during the work week and feel they may have lost the title by being unavailable on some Fridays. It's why the Draft Champions Leagues are so popular.

And yes, it's not easy to program this to take into consideration every change made between Monday and Friday. Maybe it is, but those concerns and other loopholes are why this isn't as easy as it seems.

For the record i wasnt complaining about making changes to my lineup on fridays.What i was saying is I do most of my moves for the weekend during the week. Will i have the same capability to do a move on Wednesday that others would be doing on Friday.
Lets say I have axford on my bench and lester goes on the dl n wednesday and I put axford in on wednesday but he ends up pitching on Thursday what happens with my lineup?
Does it revert back or do we have the same loop hole all over again?

[DOUGHBOYS]

I very rarely have much time on Fridays to do hitting changes let alone pitching. I try to do as many moves as possible when possible.

And this is coming from an NFBC die-hard. This is definitely a concern that we'd hear from many others who are very busy during the work week and feel they may have lost the title by being unavailable on some Fridays. It's why the Draft Champions Leagues are so popular.

And yes, it's not easy to program this to take into consideration every change made between Monday and Friday. Maybe it is, but those concerns and other loopholes are why this isn't as easy as it seems.

For the record i wasnt complaining about making changes to my lineup on fridays.What i was saying is I do most of my moves for the weekend during the week. Will i have the same capability to do a move on Wednesday that others would be doing on Friday.
Lets say I have axford on my bench and lester goes on the dl n wednesday and I put axford in on wednesday but he ends up pitching on Thursday what happens with my lineup?
Does it revert back or do we have the same loop hole all over again?

Yes, you would have the same capabilities. If Axford does not pitch on Wednesday, he still remains as one of your starting nine pitchers, while Lester is benched. Not pitching on Wednesday for Axford, only means that he is still available to be moved if he too went down with injury.

[Rog]

Sorry i didnt realize the revised rule change was going to be implemented for any day of the week not just friday
I am on board with whatever. Just make sure evertbody is in the same boat

[Driver Love]

Compared to many in the thread, I am a relative newcomer to the NFBC main event. Put me in the camp of those who want more control and flexibility with their team, lineup, rosters, etc. One of the most important things to the game operator has to be customer retention. Someone several posts back made a great point about how some people wont come back if left with a sour taste in their mouth due to injuries that crushed their season. Now we all know injuries are a part of fantasy sports. But any rules and/or flexibility that allows the fantasy player to manager around those injuries makes the game more fun. I had Brandon Morrow slated to start several weeks ago only to have him be throw on the DL Tuesday without any warning or hint of a problem (that I saw). I had 2 viable starters sitting on my bench that I could have plugged in for him. Having that kind of control over my team makes the game experience more fun and less frustrating when things like this happen.

Just my 2 cents...

[mikenj46]

That would probably be the solution if we were to program it that way. It basically would allow owners to replace someone injured before or during the week and replace him on the weekend if you had a pitching replacement on Reserve. But it would still allow owners to start a DL pitcher and replace him with a SP who had a tough matchup early in the week and an ideal matchup on the weekend. I guess that's not our worry, but it does still allow that, right?

Greg,

Wouldn't a SP who pitched early in the week but was on someone's bench be locked into that bench spot? That's how I think you could avoid the situation you're describing. It wouldn't be about whether or not someone pitched for your lineup, but in an MLB game. SP has a tough Monday matchup and is on my bench. He's the not eligible to be placed into my lineup when changes are made on Friday. If I want to swap a pitcher from my lineup with someone one my bench both players need to have not played Monday-Thursday.

[DOUGHBOYS]

That would probably be the solution if we were to program it that way. It basically would allow owners to replace someone injured before or during the week and replace him on the weekend if you had a pitching replacement on Reserve. But it would still allow owners to start a DL pitcher and replace him with a SP who had a tough matchup early in the week and an ideal matchup on the weekend. I guess that's not our worry, but it does still allow that, right?

Greg,

Wouldn't a SP who pitched early in the week but was on someone's bench be locked into that bench spot? That's how I think you could avoid the situation you're describing. It wouldn't be about whether or not someone pitched for your lineup, but in an MLB game. SP has a tough Monday matchup and is on my bench. He's the not eligible to be placed into my lineup when changes are made on Friday. If I want to swap a pitcher from my lineup with someone one my bench both players need to have not played Monday-Thursday.

Once the pitcher has thrown a pitch, he stays at his designation, whether it was starting or on the bench. He cannot be manuvered to pitch one game, not the other.

[Gekko]

If a new pitcher rule is enacted, there will undoubtedly be a loophole or two that some owners will take advantage of. these same owners would prob pimp out their own momma to make a buck. couple other examples, if these owners were major leaguers, they'd prob be the ones to take PEDS. if they were quarterbacks, they'd prob deflate footballs for an advantage.

a lot of us despise people like that. "win at all costs", even if rules are being bent/broken. let's hope any new pitcher rule would eliminate any owner shenanigans.

[Money]

If a new pitcher rule is enacted, there will undoubtedly be a loophole or two that some owners will take advantage of. these same owners would prob pimp out their own momma to make a buck. couple other examples, if these owners were major leaguers, they'd prob be the ones to take PEDS. if they were quarterbacks, they'd prob deflate footballs for an advantage.

a lot of us despise people like that. "win at all costs", even if rules are being bent/broken. let's hope any new pitcher rule would eliminate any owner shenanigans.

It appears that someone has hacked into Mark's account

[DOUGHBOYS]

Things that would be different if this rule were implemented-

1. Pitchers would not be 'set' on Monday. We would still set the lineup as we would any other week, but pitchers maintain flexibility until throwing a pitch.

2. We would have up until the first game of each day through the week to change those pitchers that have not thrown a pitch. Those pitchers that have thrown a pitch cannot be moved.

3. This includes relievers. This may add a bit of strategy in our game.
For instance, if Neftali Feliz is questionable as a Closer, and indeed, is sat down while another pitcher closes, he can be benched if he has not thrown a pitch.

4. If Travis Wood has a Start set for Saturday, but is used in relief in an extra inning game on Monday, he will not be able to be moved on your roster from Tuesday on, as it is now.

5. My largest fear is IT.
First, can this be programmed?
Second, it will only effect pitchers.
Third, this only effects pitchers if he has thrown a pitch. If ANY PITCHER enters a game as a pinch hitter or runner, IT will have to recognize that and program it that way, so that it does not effect our rosters.

More input would be appreciated before this is even off the ground. Make no mistake, this is a major rule change that is being proposed. Besides a couple of futile attempts before in changing our pitchers, we have had this same system for pitchers since Greg started the NFBC.
Any comments, pro or con would be much appreciated.

[lrr]

Things that would be different if this rule were implemented-

1. Pitchers would not be 'set' on Monday. We would still set the lineup as we would any other week, but pitchers maintain flexibility until throwing a pitch.

2. We would have up until the first game of each day through the week to change those pitchers that have not thrown a pitch. Those pitchers that have thrown a pitch cannot be moved.

3. This includes relievers. This may add a bit of strategy in our game.
For instance, if Neftali Feliz is questionable as a Closer, and indeed, is sat down while another pitcher closes, he can be benched if he has not thrown a pitch.

4. If Travis Wood has a Start set for Saturday, but is used in relief in an extra inning game on Monday, he will not be able to be moved on your roster from Tuesday on, as it is now.

5. My largest fear is IT.
First, can this be programmed?
Second, it will only effect pitchers.
Third, this only effects pitchers if he has thrown a pitch. If ANY PITCHER enters a game as a pinch hitter or runner, IT will have to recognize that and program it that way, so that it does not effect our rosters.

More input would be appreciated before this is even off the ground. Make no mistake, this is a major rule change that is being proposed. Besides a couple of futile attempts before in changing our pitchers, we have had this same system for pitchers since Greg started the NFBC.

Any comments, pro or con would be much appreciated.

Numer two above confused me. Why can't a move be made at any time in the night. Assume it's eight o'clock. Another game has started at 7. My eight o'clock starter is scratched with an injury. I have a pitcher who is starting at 10 that night. Why can't I switch them, assuming neither pitcher has thrown a pitch yet.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Numer two above confused me. Why can't a move be made at any time in the night. Assume it's eight o'clock. Another game has started at 7. My eight o'clock starter is scratched with an injury. I have a pitcher who is starting at 10 that night. Why can't I switch them, assuming neither pitcher has thrown a pitch yet.

This would create problems.

Russ's example earlier in this thread would be problematic.
Also, we don't want to make this a daily game where whoever happens to be near a computer or tv has an advantage over somebody who is not.
This rule would make everybody equal each day, no matter if near a computer or not.

If this rule is adopted and everybody likes it, then we can entertain ideas like yours that give us even more freedoms.'

[lrr]

I understand your point but it raises another element of luck. I only have one pitcher on the bench and he starts at 10 on wednesday. My pitcher in the lineup who is also pitching on Wednesday is scratched at 7 with an injury and I can't make the switch. Someone else also has the scratched pitcher. He also has only one pitcher on the bench but that pitcher starts Thursday and he can make the switch on Thursday. Doesn't make sense to me.

[lrr]

[quote="lrr"]I understand your point but it raises another element of luck. I only have one pitcher on the bench and he starts at 10 on wednesday. My pitcher in the lineup who is also pitching on Wednesday is scratched at 7 with an injury and I can't make the switch. Someone else also has the scratched pitcher. He also has only one pitcher on the bench but that pitcher starts Thursday and he can make the switch on Thursday. Doesn't make sense to me. I should also add that a game started at one that afternoon so according to your rule, I can't make the switch on Wednesday.

[Navel Lint]

Numer two above confused me. Why can't a move be made at any time in the night. Assume it's eight o'clock. Another game has started at 7. My eight o'clock starter is scratched with an injury. I have a pitcher who is starting at 10 that night. Why can't I switch them, assuming neither pitcher has thrown a pitch yet.

This would create problems.

Russ's example earlier in this thread would be problematic.
Also, we don't want to make this a daily game where whoever happens to be near a computer or tv has an advantage over somebody who is not.
This rule would make everybody equal each day, no matter if near a computer or not.

If this rule is adopted and everybody likes it, then we can entertain ideas like yours that give us even more freedoms.'

I don't like a rule that creates a possible problem like I've identified earlier.
That being said, if were are going to be free to change pitchers that haven't thrown a pitch, I would prefer to be able to do it at anytime he hasn't thrown a pitch, not just between the last pitch of one day and the first pitch of the next day.

Also, reference IT. Not only does the system have have to recognize when a pitcher is used as a pinch hitter (32 times last year) or a pinch runner (36 times last year), but also as a non-pitcher defensive replacement ( I think 6 times last year, but I'm not 100% on that).
And the last big one, at least 14 times since 2000 a pitcher has entered the game as a pitcher and has recorded an out without throwing a pitch. I know that's a small amount, I get that, but unbelievable, 2 of those 14 pitchers actually recorded the WIN for their team.

[Fourslot40]

Leave it like it is. You will never please everyone. We play the same rules and all probably come across this during the season at some point. If you entertain it, it wil just open another argument.

[Rainiers]

Glen has a good idea that in theory prevents pitcher streaming and reliance on the DL rule. It would have some clear benefits, and it also could change our game in other, more subtle, ways.

Strategically, it would effect the game when it comes to the use of relief pitchers. For example, its not uncommon for me to weigh the benefits of starting a relief pitcher over a starting pitcher who has just a single start. One criteria I use is how many games does the reliever's team have this week. If it's seven or eight, I might go with the reliever. If there were six games left for the reliever come Tuesday , maybe I leave him in. Come Wednesday, and the reliever hasn't pitched, and with only five games left in the week, I might switch him out with a starter who also has yet to pitch.

Are daily management decisions like this really what we are striving for here?

I could live with daily management issues as long as I have time on a daily basis to make the changes. Games can start as early as 9:30 am out west. As a working guy, my window of opportunity on a daily basis is generally 5-6 in the morning. That means rosters would have to ready for changes by 7 in the morning Central Time. If there are guys like me on the east coast, you should probably move that time frame up to 4 AM central.

I'm trying to be open minded here. I really like the game as it as right now.

But if you do make changes please stay away from that Pandora's box that is DL-based rules.

[Edwards Kings]

Leave it like it is. You will never please everyone. We play the same rules and all probably come across this during the season at some point. If you entertain it, it will just open another argument.

+1