New York bans FanDuel and DraftKings

[King of Queens]

DFS represents a VAST minority of fantasy sports participants. That's the number that needs to be presented here.

[BK METS]

DFS represents a VAST minority of fantasy sports participants. That's the number that needs to be presented here.

That's the big misconception here. People think that because DFS is such a huge industry and the growth is crazy, that more people play DFS, than traditional fantasy. This is furthest from the truth. More money, yes, more people, not even close.

[King of Queens]

DFS represents a VAST minority of fantasy sports participants. That's the number that needs to be presented here.

That's the big misconception here. People think that because DFS is such a huge industry and the growth is crazy, that more people play DFS, than traditional fantasy. This is furthest from the truth. More money, yes, more people, not even close.

I wonder why the FSTA -- which has a better handle on these numbers than anyone -- isn't forthcoming with the data.

Oh.

[DOUGHBOYS]

DFS represents a VAST minority of fantasy sports participants. That's the number that needs to be presented here.

That's the big misconception here. People think that because DFS is such a huge industry and the growth is crazy, that more people play DFS, than traditional fantasy. This is furthest from the truth. More money, yes, more people, not even close.

I believe that this is to our advantage.
I would rather be perceived as quakers being overrun by mischievous hoodlums.
The hoodlums go to jail, not us.

[COZ]

http://www.ag.ny.gov/pdfs/FD_Complaint.pdf

Very clear definition of Traditional (season-long) Fantasy Sports is given on pages 4-6.

Very interesting read. Sounds like they're not as clueless as we all seem to paint them, and frankly, the way they lay out the DFS similarities to gambling, can't say I really disagree. Page 8 seems to be where they really highlight the differences between DFS and season-long which is refreshing to see. They seem to focus on the fast-paced, prop-bet nature of DFS, and clearly distinguish that from the season long game.

On Page 8:

"38. In several fundamental respects, DFS represents a clear departure from season longfantasy sports:

a. First, DFS games run on a daily and weekly basis. Scoring depends on the performance of particular athletes in a given week, a given weekend, on a given night, or even a given tournament or race (as with golf, MMA, orNASCAR). This allows for faster-paced games that require less time commitment.

b. Second, DFS games allow no trading; no dropping players; and no adjusting lineups. Players must “lock in” or finalize their lineup by a particular deadline. After the lineup is locked, a DFS player can do nothing but watch as the performance of athletes in real-world games determines whether he won.

c. Third, DFS uses neither of the competitive draft formats, i.e. either the “snake” or the auction draft. Instead, it uses a salary cap draft. In a salary cap draft, the site assigns each athlete a theoretical value (a “salary”). Bettors can fill their team with players until they have exhausted their salary cap or allocation. Thus, the same athlete can appear on multiple
teams.

39. The “salaries” assigned to athletes constitute odds roughly reflecting how the DFS operator (e.g., FanDuel) expects a particular athlete to perform over a given time period.

40. The quick time frame of DFS and the ability to set the lineup only once eliminates any of the strategic elements associated with managing a traditional fantasy team over the course of a season. As compared to traditional fantasy sports, DFS’ rules also eliminate any strategy associated with drafting good players first, because the same players can appear in every lineup.

41. As FanDuel exhorted on its website, with DFS: “The format simplified. The winning amplified. And the money? Let’s just say your season-long league won't pay out $75 million a week.”

42. Rather than a new type of fantasy league, DFS simply devised another way to bet on sports.

43. Casinos and bookmaking operations in Nevada and non-U.S. jurisdictions with legalized sports gambling have long allowed “prop” (short for proposition) bets—i.e., bets on statistics and milestones that occur in given games or in connection with particular players.

44. Indeed, FanDuel recognizes that DFS is akin to sports prop betting. FanDuel advises on its website: “By taking into account over-under lines, as well as money lines and player props, FanDuel players gives [sic] themselves more opportunities to win.”

While I hope DFS survives this, to me, it is hard to argue against the prop bet nature of DFS as laid out here. I just hope they don't take down season-long and the NFBC/NFFC/NFBKC with it, otherwise we may need to find some speak-easies for our drafts and take this shit underground. I still think had they not had their obnoxiuos advertising blitz-kreig this fall with the constant in-your-face of it all, with promises of millions of dollars for Average Joe, none of this would have happened. They have no one to blame but themselves for this Enron-like collapse. Doesn't look good for DFS, to me, after reading this.

COZ

[Greg Ambrosius]

Let's just all admit that NOBODY is going to bat for season-long games right now. Forget UIGEA and what it allowed us to do since passing in 2006. Forget about the FSTA. The state Attorney Generals are making their own rules and saving Gotham from that evil empire that is all of fantasy sports, even in a state like Nevada where anything goes. Gee, thanks.

In fact, the rhetoric today has really changed to "if DFS is considered sports gambling in New York, why isn't season-long gambling as well?" You can see some mainstream media asking that question. From ESPN's Andrew Brandt: "Would certainly expect legal responses from DK/FD to point out NY allowing lotteries, season-long fantasy and other DFS operators." There are other Tweets similar to that today, which means New York residents should be ready for an assault on all pay-to-play games in that state before the legislature intervenes.

And if you think that me cutting ties with Fanduel is going to make a hill of beans, well, it won't. Nobody gives two s--ts about that. We'll let due process play out and see what happens. I realize that everyone is trying to cover their own butts right now, and it's no fun being in the crosshairs, but it's survival time. It's out of our hands. My hope is that the legal system has some sanity in New York, but if not then we'll act accordingly. Who knows, maybe we'll have to reply to the AG ourselves.

It's all so frustrating. This is going to play out, like it or not, and the consequences might not be fun to deal with. In another week, we'll have our answer there.

[KJ Duke]

Very interesting read. Sounds like they're not as clueless as we all seem to paint them, and frankly, the way they lay out the DFS similarities to gambling, can't say I really disagree. Page 8 seems to be where they really highlight the differences between DFS and season-long which is refreshing to see. They seem to focus on the fast-paced, prop-bet nature of DFS, and clearly distinguish that from the season long game.

While I hope DFS survives this, to me, it is hard to argue against the prop bet nature of DFS as laid out here. I just hope they don't take down season-long and the NFBC/NFFC/NFBKC with it, otherwise we may need to find some speak-easies for our drafts and take this shit underground. I still think had they not had their obnoxiuos advertising blitz-kreig this fall with the constant in-your-face of it all, with promises of millions of dollars for Average Joe, none of this would have happened. They have no one to blame but themselves for this Enron-like collapse. Doesn't look good for DFS, to me, after reading this.

COZ

Agreed that they are making a reasonable argument. And if players who are against legislation think they have a point, DFS is probably headed for sports-gambling status.

Disagree however on the advertising component of it. That no doubt has sped up the process but I think the outcome was inevitable based on the dollar value of the business alone. Had it stayed a smaller, niche business it would not have been worthwhile for regulators to go after.

[KJ Duke]

And if you think that me cutting ties with Fanduel is going to make a hill of beans, well, it won't. Nobody gives two s--ts about that. We'll let due process play out and see what happens. I realize that everyone is trying to cover their own butts right now, and it's no fun being in the crosshairs, but it's survival time. It's out of our hands. My hope is that the legal system has some sanity in New York, but if not then we'll act accordingly. Who knows, maybe we'll have to reply to the AG ourselves.

You're probably right in that cutting ties isn't going to matter since high stakes season leagues aren't nearly big enough to bother regulating, so I doubt States care too much. On the other hand, I'm not sure there's much benefit to not cutting ties either. You're not going to upset your customer base and the DFS growth engine is coming to a halt.

I think the biggest risk for us is that it may be easier to ban/regulate the entire industry on the theory that allowing season-long leagues might create loopholes for DFS, or because regulators don't care enough to treat them differently.

Likewise, the FSTA is clearly following the money. I have no interest in supporting them as their approach is potentially negative for the NFBC. We might as well just call them the DFSTA from now on.

[Greg Ambrosius]

And if you think that me cutting ties with Fanduel is going to make a hill of beans, well, it won't. Nobody gives two s--ts about that. We'll let due process play out and see what happens. I realize that everyone is trying to cover their own butts right now, and it's no fun being in the crosshairs, but it's survival time. It's out of our hands. My hope is that the legal system has some sanity in New York, but if not then we'll act accordingly. Who knows, maybe we'll have to reply to the AG ourselves.

You're not going to upset your customer base and the DFS growth engine is coming to a halt.

That's your assumption. Let due process play out in the courts and we'll see if that comes true. That's all I'm saying.

And last year almost $60,000 was saved by NFBC owners and another $60,000 by NFFC owners through the promotion we had with Fanduel. There is a lot of good in this partnership if as you say the politicians find a solution to allow DFS to be regulated and controlled. It does no harm to watch this legal process play out and to act accordingly after that.

[COZ]

Let's just all admit that NOBODY is going to bat for season-long games right now. Forget UIGEA and what it allowed us to do since passing in 2006. Forget about the FSTA. The state Attorney Generals are making their own rules and saving Gotham from that evil empire that is all of fantasy sports, even in a state like Nevada where anything goes.

UIGEA is federal law, and does not nullify State's own laws. Everything going on now is the State's enforcing their own anti-gambling State laws, and the Feds are not involved and since the Attorney General of each State leads the way on enforcement, that's why they are involved in all of this and rendering their opinions that yes, they believe this is just a prop-bet form of gambling.

Greg, I think after reading that you should be relieved that the AG is so clearly distinguishing season-long from DFS. In a way, you can see where the arguments are going... DFS lawyers/lobbyists arguing this is MORE skillful than season-long and therefore NOT gambling; AG clearly (hopefully?) (at least my reading of Page 8) saying this IS different from the traditional season-long games ( implying that he does NOT feel is of a prop-bet gambling nature). So, in a way it looks like one side (DFS) is trying to attach itself to season-long, and the AG is saying no this is different than season-long games. But BOTH sides seem to be implying the same thing: season-long games are OK. At least, for all of us, I hope that is the implication from my reading of Page 8.

COZ

[Greg Ambrosius]

Let's just all admit that NOBODY is going to bat for season-long games right now. Forget UIGEA and what it allowed us to do since passing in 2006. Forget about the FSTA. The state Attorney Generals are making their own rules and saving Gotham from that evil empire that is all of fantasy sports, even in a state like Nevada where anything goes.

UIGEA is federal law, and does not nullify State's own laws. Everything going on now is the State's enforcing their own anti-gambling State laws, and the Feds are not involved and since the Attorney General leads the way on enforcement, that's why they are involved in all of this and rendering their opinions that yes, they believe this is just a prop-bet form of gambling.

Greg, I think after reading that you should be relieved that the AG is so clearly distinguishing season-long from DFS. In a way, you can see where the arguments are going... DFS lawyers/lobbyists arguing this is MORE skillful than season-long and therefore NOT gambling; AG clearly (hopefully?) (at least my reading of Page 8) saying this IS different from the traditional season-long games ( implying that he does NOT feel is of a prop-bet gambling nature). So, in a way it looks like one side (DFS) is trying to attach itself to season-long, and the AG is saying no this is different than season-long games. But BOTH sides seem to be implying the same thing: season-long games are OK. At least, for all of us, I hope that is the implication from my reading of Page 8.

COZ

Oh trust me, I understand that states can trump UIGEA. It's a shame that one person can do that with his own interpretation. Now every AG can do this and some may not disassociate season-long from DFS. That should scare everyone on these boards.

No, I'm not happy with that. Again, it does us no good when UIGEA was already our lifeline to legality. New York wasn't disputing that before. Now he's thrown us in the crosshairs of skill-based games that pay cash prizes. Why would we be happy with that? It wasn't questioned before he offered to shut down DFS.

I'm surprised that all of the other DFS companies can continue to operate in New York, while FD and DK have been shut down. Seems like everyone is offering the same thing, minus the outrageous marketing campaigns. Any idea there?

[DOUGHBOYS]

We have little control in what happens.
We're bystanders or maybe collateral damage.
Screw 'em.
Lets do what we do.
Lets draft!

[King of Queens]

Further, serious questions have arisen regarding whether DraftKings is abiding by anti- gambling laws in jurisdictions where even the company accepts that DFS is wholly illegal. Wagner Aff. ¶ 25. NYAG’s investigation uncovered documentation indicating that, in 2014, DraftKings received $484,897 in entry fees from player accounts registered in states where DraftKings purports not to offer DFS for legal reasons (Montana, Arizona, Washington, Louisiana, and Iowa).

[Baseball Furies]

We have little control in what happens.
We're bystanders or maybe collateral damage.
Screw 'em.
Lets do what we do.
Lets draft!

We need a draft room to that...and a company that is still intact after all of this DFS-created bullshit is decided upon while season long sits on its collective ass doing nada as we wait for the next shoe to drop.

And if I read one more fucking thing on this thread trying to sugarcoat and spin this DFS/gambling shit storm into anything else but the negative that it is for the NFBC and the game that we all love which is now in serious jeopardy, I'm really going to go off on here! This whole thing has been the proverbial wolf in the chicken coop for years, and now it's all blowing up and we act like we're surprised?! Please.

[King of Queens]

I'm surprised that all of the other DFS companies can continue to operate in New York, while FD and DK have been shut down. Seems like everyone is offering the same thing, minus the outrageous marketing campaigns. Any idea there?

Yahoo was added to the inquiry, and many of the others have already left.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/18/sport ... p=cur&_r=1

Among the findings and claims in the court filing:

■ In 2014, DraftKings received $484,897 in entry fees from player accounts in states where daily fantasy is illegal (Montana, Arizona, Washington, Louisiana and Iowa). The filing does not say whether possession of the money constitutes a violation of New York law, but “serious questions have arisen regarding whether DraftKings is abiding by antigambling laws in jurisdictions where even the company accepts that D.F.S. is wholly illegal.” Last week, The New York Times reported that users in the six states where daily is prohibited, including Nevada, could make bets on DraftKings using an easily accessible service for disguising a computer’s true location.

■ Both companies encouraged their employees to play on each other’s platforms and against regular customers. “FanDuel recognized that this policy would be ill-received, instructing employees to minimize their public presence ‘so users are less likely to be suspicious or angry’ and avoid becoming ‘among the top five players by volume’ because ‘top players frequently become targets for accusations.’ ”

■ A vast majority of players are net losers, losing far more money playing on the sites than they win. DraftKings data show that 89.3 percent of D.F.S. players had an overall negative return on investment across 2013 and 2014.

■ Despite the sites’ rejection of the label “gambling,” the sites employ an “overt strategy of recruiting gamblers.” FanDuel hired a former top executive from Full Tilt, an online poker company, and is affiliated with Vegas Insider and BetVega, which are sports betting and handicapping websites. DraftKings entered sponsorships with gambling ventures like the World Series of Poker and the Belmont Stakes.

■ DraftKings embedded gambling keywords into the programming code for its website like “weekly fantasy basketball betting” and “weekly fantasy college football betting” to drive traffic to its website from people looking to gamble on search engines like Google.

■ The sites harm the community by fostering gambling addiction. The filing cites DraftKings’ own records of pleas from customers to close accounts and permanently ban them from the site, with subjects like “Gambling Addict do not reopen.”

[EWeaver]

■ A vast majority of players are net losers, losing far more money playing on the sites than they win. DraftKings data show that 89.3 percent of D.F.S. players had an overall negative return on investment across 2013 and 2014.

game of skill

[DOUGHBOYS]

We have little control in what happens.
We're bystanders or maybe collateral damage.
Screw 'em.
Lets do what we do.
Lets draft!

We need a draft room to that...and a company that is still intact after all of this DFS-created bullshit is decided upon while season long sits on its collective ass doing nada as we wait for the next shoe to drop.

And if I read one more fucking thing on this thread trying to sugarcoat and spin this DFS/gambling shit storm into anything else but the negative that it is for the NFBC and the game that we all love which is now in serious jeopardy, I'm really going to go off on here! This whole thing has been the proverbial wolf in the chicken coop for years, and now it's all blowing up and we act like we're surprised?! Please.

It's a pisser isn't it!?
We have the FSTA and spin off fantasy letter groups stumping for fantasy sports. And seemingly, they have daily fantasy as their lead interest. (Probably a losing proposition)
We have DraftKings and FanDuel fighting for DraftKings and FanDuel and don't care about fantasy sports as a whole.
There is nobody having a say for the season-long game.
A damned shame.

[Fourslot40]

Live events will be held in Iola, WI. How many folks can we fit in the Ambrosius/ Kessenich basements?

[King of Queens]

It's a pisser isn't it!?
We have the FSTA and spin off fantasy letter groups stumping for fantasy sports. And seemingly, they have daily fantasy as their lead interest. (Probably a losing proposition)
We have DraftKings and FanDuel fighting for DraftKings and FanDuel and don't care about fantasy sports as a whole.
There is nobody having a say for the season-long game.
A damned shame.

You have to wait for the legal distinction between the two games to be made. It's coming.

[KJ Duke]

Live events will be held in Iola, WI. How many folks can we fit in the Ambrosius/ Kessenich basements?

Platinum League ▬ Corona and Lime Doritos in the Ambrosius basement. It would sell out.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Live events will be held in Iola, WI. How many folks can we fit in the Ambrosius/ Kessenich basements?

Platinum League ▬ Corona and Lime Doritos in the Ambrosius basement. It would sell out.

IN!!!

[DOUGHBOYS]

What does Greg do with the cheesehead hats and GB #1 fingers in his basement?

Tom's cats?

[fwicker]

Just got this in an email. Interesting to note they use the broad term fantasy sports, no differentiation between daily and season-long.

Fwicker:

Last week, we asked you to send a note to your legislators, telling them you opposed Assemblyman Marc Levine's effort to ban daily fantasy sports in California.

Today, we are asking you to go a step further by contacting Attorney General Kamala Harris directly.

Use our simple online tool to send California Attorney General Kamala Harris an email that says you support keeping fantasy sports legal in California.

Fantasy sports builds community — and now it's time for our community to stand together to make our voices heard.

Attorney General Harris needs to hear from you. Tell her you support keeping fantasy sports legal for everyone in California:

https://www.fantasysportsforall.com/con ... ifornia-2/

With your help, we'll protect our right to play fantasy sports in California.

Thank you,

FanDuel

[ToddZ]

Keep in mind DraftKings home office is in Boston

http://www.mass.gov/ago/consumer-resour ... ation/dfs/

[Greg Ambrosius]

Keep in mind DraftKings home office is in Boston

http://www.mass.gov/ago/consumer-resour ... ation/dfs/

Well, at least this is common sense regulation. You don't have to agree with it (banning 18 year olds from playing DFS even though they can go to war or vote for the President), but at least it's thought out with safeguards in place. Maybe it's a step in the right direction. It's certainly better than what the New York Attorney General did.