Do not draft with list?

Steel Lugnuts
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Re: Do not draft with list?

Post by Steel Lugnuts » Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:28 pm

stevek7525 wrote:
Steel Lugnuts wrote:"...the good news is that because he timed out in two straight rounds, he was placed on permanent auto-pick starting in round 29." - The problem is, the guy just has to check in and remove auto pick, and he's back to taking 8hrs...it isn't permanent, like it should be.
Greg, if you're reading this, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you mentioned that the auto-picking becomes permanent if someone times out in two straight rounds? All I know is that Fonte never went off auto-pick after round 29.
I hope you're right, but same thing happened last year and it was either Greg or Tom that told me what I just mentioned. Hopefully Fonte doesn't read this. :)

If it isn't this way already, the only way it should be able to be removed is if they give Greg or Tom get a damn good explanation as to why they timed out twice in a row.

Gb2715
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Re: Do not draft with list?

Post by Gb2715 » Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:40 pm

And someone signing up a day earlier and getting emails with draft order then timing out in first two rds is ridiculous. There goes the fun and attitudes of everyone else. How do you sign up for a league and a day later time out in first two rds. SMH

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Re: Do not draft with list?

Post by EWeaver » Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:43 pm

my favorite is the guy in round 1 who times out / takes seven hours to pick.

"I didn't know it started"

happens every draft.

and then you realize it's true, he didn't know it started, because he's a good drafter after that...but

who the hell signs up for a DC then doesn't pay ANY attention to the status AND apparently doesn't check their email where the notifications are sent???? seems pretty nutso. also, it can mess with the tone for the draft, because one slow pick/drafter begets another who otherwise might not be slow, and when that happens right up front, well...that can infect the next 49 rounds.

expected pace should be 4-6 rounds a day, no?

format is still awesome.

Gb2715
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Re: Do not draft with list?

Post by Gb2715 » Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:46 pm

Also Greg I would be interested in a fast/slow draft for the Cutline that we could do. But only with "like minded" people. Any chance this could be a reality?

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Re: Do not draft with list?

Post by BartoloColonsFitbit » Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:48 pm

Eight hours is there because we sleep and sometimes life happens. It's not to to decide on a pick, wait on news, piss people off intentionally, or because you're always so busy. If life is so busy, don't commit to a draft. When you commit to a draft you have the responsibility of keeping it moving in respect for the others in your league. It's not that hard to check emails or check on the draft when you know your pick is coming up. Don't tell me "I'm busy". We are putting $150+ on a fantasy league. Your life s no more or less important than mine.

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Greg Ambrosius
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Re: Do not draft with list?

Post by Greg Ambrosius » Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:53 pm

EWeaver wrote:my favorite is the guy in round 1 who times out / takes seven hours to pick.

"I didn't know it started"

happens every draft.

and then you realize it's true, he didn't know it started, because he's a good drafter after that...but

who the hell signs up for a DC then doesn't pay ANY attention to the status AND apparently doesn't check their email where the notifications are sent???? seems pretty nutso. also, it can mess with the tone for the draft, because one slow pick/drafter begets another who otherwise might not be slow, and when that happens right up front, well...that can infect the next 49 rounds.

expected pace should be 4-6 rounds a day, no?

format is still awesome.
If you want 4-6 rounds per day then sign up for the Steel Balls DC.
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Greg Ambrosius
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Re: Do not draft with list?

Post by Greg Ambrosius » Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:55 pm

Gb2715 wrote:Also Greg I would be interested in a fast/slow draft for the Cutline that we could do. But only with "like minded" people. Any chance this could be a reality?
Ahhhh, no. This is a national contest where drafts happen all in one night, 55 seconds per pick. You have to be on your toes for these. We can't have different selection times for a national contest with overall prizes.
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Re: Do not draft with list?

Post by Gb2715 » Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:59 pm

Greg Ambrosius wrote:
Gb2715 wrote:Also Greg I would be interested in a fast/slow draft for the Cutline that we could do. But only with "like minded" people. Any chance this could be a reality?
Ahhhh, no. This is a national contest where drafts happen all in one night, 55 seconds per pick. You have to be on your toes for these. We can't have different selection times for a national contest with overall prizes.

No problem. I have done a couple of these already just thought I would ask. Are the DC's national contests?

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Re: Do not draft with list?

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:19 pm

When signing up for a DC Draft, we all do it for one reason, we love fantasy baseball. We know that the next day, we will be drafting the players we covet and anticipate our draft position.
The similarities we share with other drafters ends there.
One of our draftmates may be a firefighter or bar owner or construction worker or office worker.
One may have constant access or little access till getting home or only access by phone or only access at certain times of the day.
On top of this, is our slow draft 'methods of choosing'. I know a certain firefighter who I kiddingly call, 'The Muller'.
He knows he is on the clock, but enjoys the process of deciding who to take for up to half an hour. This used to drive me crazy. My method is different. I usually have a plan and know who I want.
But, who am I to bust up his enjoyment?
He loves mulling each player in his mind before deciding. It makes the draft more enjoyable for him.
Nothing wrong with that.

I'm in a draft now, where a fellow, just on the clock, typed in the chat room that he would be gone for three hours because of family committments.
He could have chosen, but obviously, did not want to be rushed.
Because he communicated with the others, nobody griped.
I can't begin to tell you how much one little sentence in chat can mean.
Although he was on the clock and wouldn't draft for three hours, no matter what the personal reactions were of the 14 other drafters, we were all grateful that we KNEW we didn't have to check in for three hours.

There have been several suggestions about four hour, six hour, eight hour, overnight stoppages, our own clocks.
All, probably great suggestions. Unfortunately there is a problem with each of these solutions. The largest would be depending on IT to get it right. No offense, Greg.
And when moving it to four or six hours, we'll get the same gripes about folks taking too long. It'll just be that somebody timed out at four or six hours, still upsetting some folks.
I now believe that messing with the clock is not the right solution, even if supported by IT.

Anybody who has done a like minded draft or fast/slow have all been amazed at just how pleasurable they are. The eight hour clock is taken out of play. It is only used as a timeout during sleeping hours. I can't describe adequately how enjoyable this type of draft is. Perfect for those that are impatient and want to pick five or six times a day.
The problem being for some, that they can't devote that much time to a draft. Which brings us back to the regular DC's.

I'm in a slow DC now. We're averaging about two rounds a day. We don't have one drafter or two drafters taking a lot of time. Just a bunch of people who I suspect like to be 'mullers' or are busy and don't check in for an hour or two.
This would have driven me crazy when younger.
Now, I know they are enjoying themselves with the process.
Even better, is that most are posting in chat when the minutes will become hours.
THAT is the key.

I was in the draft that Bruce was in with Woj. He timed out and everybody was upset. The next day, he apologized and said that he liked drinking too much.
That meant the world. At least to me. It let me know that during evenings, I probably couldn't count on Woj drafting and go on with other things in my life. It also let me know that if he were to enter another draft, I would probably pass on that particular draft.

Communications is the key.
Chat is the heartbeat of each draft. If there is no chat at all, then it is probably not an enjoyable draft.
Take the initiative. Make a remark. No matter how stupid. Tell a joke. You'll be amazed how many others chime in after somebody starts chat. They want to have fun too.

As far as suggestions to improve these drafts, the clock is not the evil. It's like blaming John Wilkes Booth's gun.
That clock, really, is an alarm clock.
Some of us get up right away and pick. Some will hit snooze two or three times while mulling their picks. Some will just say screw it and turn the clock off and pick later.
The problem being that the other 14 drafters don't know and have to check in.
If IT could handle it, I would like to see a little 'out/in' by each players name. This would let us know that a drafter will be out till 7 pm or in by 7pm.
Why?
Because some avoid chat. This would allow communication without using chat.
I've enjoyed both slow/slow and fast/slow drafts this year. I envision myself riding in a clunker when entering a 'normal draft'.
A Corvette when in a fast/slow.
Actually, I enjoy the pace of both. We have to remind ourselves that 15 folks signed up for a draft, each with different approaches in their pace and picks.
Be cognizant that the 14 other drafters are all different.
In either, chat should be the pulse and star of the draft.


Edit-
One other thing to mention. Drafts would go a little smoother and at a better pace if we had an 'auto2' option.
Using 'auto1' in the one. two, three, 13, 14, and 15 draft positions is usually fruitless.
Some drafters have a full queue, but don't trust full auto in knowing that 30 players will be taken and their queue becomes a shambles by the time they are ready to pick again.
It seemed to me that the new draft room had this. I can't remember.
'Auto2' is a necessity.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

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Baseball Furies
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Re: Do not draft with list?

Post by Baseball Furies » Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:51 pm

I'm sorry, I have really tried to stay off of this thread after having commented on it earlier on in it's inception, but I couldn't remain silent any longer. Now there's a shock! :shock:

This post is directed to you Greg, because you are the one responsible for handling this and the one who has the ability and the clout to make the needed changes to these drafts happen. First of all, it is utterly absurd to me that the solution to dealing with a small minority of your client base who like to damage your brand and diminish the enjoyment of participating in your product which will ultimately lead to you losing business, is to tell Bruce (among others) that the solution is to start up a special faster DC just for him and to spend more money on another league. I'm not even the one who has been dealing with the bullshit that he has been dealing with like Jim and others, and I am completely insulted by your suggestion. :evil: No, the solution is to resolve the situation so that it is no longer a problem for your good clientele who make up the vast majority of your NFBC revenue. What is so difficult to understand about this? You could easily put together a panel of us in the off season to help you revise and revamp the rules for DC's for 2017 which will resolve all of these problems once and for all instead of having yourself and us deal with this same crap year after year. This product was invented/conceived by one of your own top players and clients, so why shouldn't he and others who have helped innovate it over the years be included in revamping it so it works better for everyone? I will go way out on a limb here and state that there is absolutely no one on here who participates in these DC's that is happy and enjoys them when they are slow and take weeks on end to complete with participants taking hours upon hours to make picks, timing out, being rude and disrespectful of others time in the league, 'hijacking' leagues, etc. etc. etc. And how is it fair to the rest of us who don't want to participate in these leagues because they are constant problems and a nuisance to be a part of to hear that we are not gaining the "benefit" and "good fortune" of being in them with guys who are timing out and going auto pick and getting players who are either retired, playing overseas, or out for the season? :shock: It's not fair and rewards some players for being in these league when it should not. The fact is, anyone should be able to join any DC league that the NFBC has to offer and reasonably expect to enjoy the same experience and product as everyone else in other leagues with a modicum of time differential except in the cases of the express drafts and the super fast DC's I tend to run. Which brings up another point as to why your good clientele is forced out of necessity each year to get creative and market other versions of events on your behalf to get others to purchase your product to participate in these DC's the way they should be being delivered because no one on your end cares enough to look into fixing the problems with the product? You are not in these drafts, Greg. We are. You are not spending your hard earned money on these drafts. We are. You are not dealing with the massive inconvenience that it creates when these issues occur with not only draft etiquette and time management, but with IT shortfalls as well. We are. And it's not fun. Not only that, you are hurting you own revenue flow, because the more drafts that can be done, and the better the experience for all involved, the more product you are apt to sell. I filled five DC's alone this year simply on the concept of them being fast and in the spirit among the participants as it is meant to be and should be. It is time to do something about this, so please give us an answer that demonstrates that you are listening to your good clientele who are urging you to improve your product so that they can spend more money on it and enjoy it the way they should be able to do. The diplomatic approach here is not working and should not be employed. Coming to the defense of the small minority of your clientele to give them the benefit of the doubt all the time does not work to solve these issues inherent with the DC product as it now stands. I write this with all due respect to you and Tom, but knowing that I run the risk as usual of you becoming defensive when challenged on matters such as these and taking offense when all I am trying to do is help. I am looking forward to your response as I am sure others on here who are following this thread.

And P.S. Your IT department is making you look really bad. So please stop referring to them as if they are going to come through on your behalf and ours because they have not. For example, on the issue of the "new and improved HTML draft room" which was an utter debacle when re-launched again after the months they had to revamp it and release a product that was truly functional, improved, and better for all of us.
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Re: Do not draft with list?

Post by Money » Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:31 pm

Same story different year. I do only one of these each year now and told myself none this year. I relented as I needed the push to further examine the different parts of the player pool. I went in full knowing that it could be an exercise in patience. I'm fine with a 17 day draft, but anything over 3 weeks and there are going to be unhappy campers.

One suggestion that's probably been given is that when someone is identified as an abuser they should automatically be put on AUTO for the rest of the draft, not until they come around and take themselves off. This is not a death sentence for that team it simply means that they will need to have the player(s) they want in their q when their turn rolls around. They have forfeited the privilege to have a clock. The NFBC would have to determine the criteria for such a penalty. One timed out? It won't be easy but it can certainly be done.

This brings me to slow draft 80. It started yesterday and we are currently in the middle of the second round and it's after 4 in the East where all of the players reside except myself. The first round was ok but took a day. It had some great chat about players as the first round order was a bit different. Today has been reduced to guys wondering how long they'll be held hostage. No one has timed out but we're on a 50 day pace early in contest. Today we have a guy who just took 6 hours off the clock and didn't say a word. The next person has now taken 2+ off the clock. This guy didn't check in during the 6 hour delay? If he did he couldn't put 2 guys in the q and go on auto 1 if he wasn't going to be around? Why sign up knowing these things start right away if you are not going to be available, wait until a day when you are?

With that said, It is what it is, I signed up knowing the risk, it doesn't mean I have to like it. In the end I will have gotten out of it what i needed to. New players should know of the risk going in if nothing is done from a rule / tech standpoint to change it.
Joe

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Gekko
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Re: Do not draft with list?

Post by Gekko » Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:33 pm

in order to get done with a DC draft in 3 weeks (21 days), a league would need to average 36 picks per day. factoring in sleep time, 2 picks need to be made EVERY HOUR. if there are owners who take 5,6,7,8 hours per pick, how do drafts ever get done in 3 weeks or less?

simple. other owners (lets call them "attentive owners") are making up for the "sloth owners". without the "attentive owners", DC drafts would be extinct. DC rules should be geared toward keeping "attentive owners" happy.

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Re: Do not draft with list?

Post by Steel Lugnuts » Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:56 pm

Hey Dan (DOUGHBOYS),
You're response was thoughtful and heartfelt, almost brought a tear to my eye! :oops: Not to mention spot on...we should save this response to add to the same post that will happen next year. :)

To Baseball Furies,
I loved your response as well...I too was amazed by Greg's response to me, wasn't too thrilled to say the least (and I think I let it be known), but figured he wasn't happy with his product being questioned, so took it with a grain of salt. They are good dudes and growing this product exponentially, but there are issues they need to take care of to make it even better, rather than question us who love this game.

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Re: Do not draft with list?

Post by Hollenole » Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:57 pm

I just want to say the last 3 posters have nailed it for me. Also now that I am in my 6th DC this year I want to correct my earlier statement that it was 50/50 that you'd get stuck in a league like the one with Fonte. The odds are way shorter that you get a good moving draft that lasts less that 3 weeks. But, maybe I have just been unlucky this year. If not for those guys I would be working on DC 10 or 12.

Steel Lugnuts
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Re: Do not draft with list?

Post by Steel Lugnuts » Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:16 pm

Hollenole wrote:I just want to say the last 3 posters have nailed it for me. Also now that I am in my 6th DC this year I want to correct my earlier statement that it was 50/50 that you'd get stuck in a league like the one with Fonte. The odds are way shorter that you get a good moving draft that lasts less that 3 weeks. But, maybe I have just been unlucky this year. If not for those guys I would be working on DC 10 or 12.
I'd like to thank you Hollenole for starting this thread, some may not like it but I think it was necessary. The slowness doesn't affect me so much as far as entering more leagues, as I only do about 3 a year anyway (wife would kill me if I did anymore :)), but may only end up doing 2. Unless that league Greg felt obligated to start for me fills up in time to launch on 2/29! :mrgreen:

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Re: Do not draft with list?

Post by Steel Lugnuts » Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:35 pm

"One other thing to mention. Drafts would go a little smoother and at a better pace if we had an 'auto2' option.
Using 'auto1' in the one. two, three, 13, 14, and 15 draft positions is usually fruitless.
Some drafters have a full queue, but don't trust full auto in knowing that 30 players will be taken and their queue becomes a shambles by the time they are ready to pick again.
It seemed to me that the new draft room had this. I can't remember.
'Auto2' is a necessity."

I must say, Dan is correct, and something that has been mentioned for a couple years now. I am drafting 15th, so to have the ability to do an auto 2 would be awesome.

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Re: Do not draft with list?

Post by Steel Lugnuts » Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:21 pm

Gekko wrote:in order to get done with a DC draft in 3 weeks (21 days), a league would need to average 36 picks per day. factoring in sleep time, 2 picks need to be made EVERY HOUR. if there are owners who take 5,6,7,8 hours per pick, how do drafts ever get done in 3 weeks or less?

simple. other owners (lets call them "attentive owners") are making up for the "sloth owners". without the "attentive owners", DC drafts would be extinct. DC rules should be geared toward keeping "attentive owners" happy.
Amen brother Gekko!

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Re: Do not draft with list?

Post by COZ » Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:55 am

Gekko wrote:in order to get done with a DC draft in 3 weeks (21 days), a league would need to average 36 picks per day. factoring in sleep time, 2 picks need to be made EVERY HOUR. if there are owners who take 5,6,7,8 hours per pick, how do drafts ever get done in 3 weeks or less?

simple. other owners (lets call them "attentive owners") are making up for the "sloth owners". without the "attentive owners", DC drafts would be extinct. DC rules should be geared toward keeping "attentive owners" happy.
Bingo. I personally would like to see a 4-hour clock with the clock turned off between 12-8 for sleep as the standard. Keep the 8-hour drafts for the inattentive, sloth guys.

COZ
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Steel Lugnuts
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Re: Do not draft with list?

Post by Steel Lugnuts » Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:03 am

COZ wrote:
Gekko wrote:in order to get done with a DC draft in 3 weeks (21 days), a league would need to average 36 picks per day. factoring in sleep time, 2 picks need to be made EVERY HOUR. if there are owners who take 5,6,7,8 hours per pick, how do drafts ever get done in 3 weeks or less?

simple. other owners (lets call them "attentive owners") are making up for the "sloth owners". without the "attentive owners", DC drafts would be extinct. DC rules should be geared toward keeping "attentive owners" happy.
Bingo. I personally would like to see a 4-hour clock with the clock turned off between 12-8 for sleep as the standard. Keep the 8-hour drafts for the inattentive, sloth guys.

COZ
I, as well as others, have been asking for this for a couple years now, don't think the software can handle it the way it is currently constructed. I'm not sure it would need to be the standard, but it would be nice to have it as an option.

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Re: Do not draft with list?

Post by bjesko » Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:12 am

The sad thing is that NFBC DOES have a 4-HOUR version of DC, available this year! But nobody knows about it because it isn't on the main contest page, and although Greg keeps saying IT will add it... you guessed it... crickets So I want to play 4 hours like I'm sure many of you do, but don't want to sign up and then wait weeks to see if the league fills. But I am signed up for my first 8 hour DC this year and hoping to start drafting tomorrow. And with any luck we'll be done before my family leaves for Australia in a month!

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Re: Do not draft with list?

Post by Yah Mule » Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:19 am

Last edited by Yah Mule on Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Do not draft with list?

Post by Tom Kessenich » Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:24 am

COZ wrote:
Gekko wrote:in order to get done with a DC draft in 3 weeks (21 days), a league would need to average 36 picks per day. factoring in sleep time, 2 picks need to be made EVERY HOUR. if there are owners who take 5,6,7,8 hours per pick, how do drafts ever get done in 3 weeks or less?

simple. other owners (lets call them "attentive owners") are making up for the "sloth owners". without the "attentive owners", DC drafts would be extinct. DC rules should be geared toward keeping "attentive owners" happy.
Bingo. I personally would like to see a 4-hour clock with the clock turned off between 12-8 for sleep as the standard. Keep the 8-hour drafts for the inattentive, sloth guys.

COZ
What about people who live on the West Coast or people who work late and get home late and then have time to draft? Why shut off the draft at times when it's convenient for them? I'm not sure shutting off the clock is an ideal option because the time that works best for you may not work best for others. That being said, we are aware there are additional tools we need to provide for our players to make the DCs even better (like Round-2 autopick). Unfortunately those are not easy things to add.

Greg's right that the first step should be to contact us rather than bashing people on the boards or creating Ban Lists etc. Oftentimes there are very legitimate reasons why people aren't picking as promptly as others would like. So rather than attacking them allowing us to find out the reasons is the more preferable option. We do have an explanation in the rules stating that the goal is to get 2-3 rounds done per day in the 8-hour format so that is there for new players. We also have the link in the signup threads on the boards as well.

And most importantly of all we have the 4-hour option that remains available and yet curiously draws no interest despite all the hang-wringing that's often done on the boards. That would seem to be the ideal solution so I remain puzzled as to why we are stuck trying to sell out the first of those leagues (not including the "Fast" leagues done on the boards). Everyone who loves the DC format but is upset by the pace of the 8-hour option should be signing up for those in droves in my opinion. The fact those struggle to sell out and we're selling out the 8-hour leagues 1-2 (and often 3 times per day) in January and February is a pretty strong indication of what the majority of our players prefer.

This has become one of our most popular contests without a doubt and we definitely want to keep improving it and making it even better. I'm just not convinced Ban Lists of Do Not Draft With Lists is the best way to get that done. In the years we've been offering DC contests in all three sports I can probably count on one hand the number of times someone was intentionally trying to sabotage a draft. It simply does not happen often at all. Like I said most of the time the explanation is very easy to understand which is why Greg and I would prefer you contact us if there are any real problems and we can reach out to the owners in question first.
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Gb2715
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Re: Do not draft with list?

Post by Gb2715 » Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:25 am

bjesko wrote:The sad thing is that NFBC DOES have a 4-HOUR version of DC, available this year! But nobody knows about it because it isn't on the main contest page, and although Greg keeps saying IT will add it... you guessed it... crickets So I want to play 4 hours like I'm sure many of you do, but don't want to sign up and then wait weeks to see if the league fills. But I am signed up for my first 8 hour DC this year and hoping to start drafting tomorrow. And with any luck we'll be done before my family leaves for Australia in a month!
Good Luck to ya.

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Re: Do not draft with list?

Post by Tom Kessenich » Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:28 am

Gb2715 wrote:
bjesko wrote:The sad thing is that NFBC DOES have a 4-HOUR version of DC, available this year! But nobody knows about it because it isn't on the main contest page, and although Greg keeps saying IT will add it... you guessed it... crickets So I want to play 4 hours like I'm sure many of you do, but don't want to sign up and then wait weeks to see if the league fills. But I am signed up for my first 8 hour DC this year and hoping to start drafting tomorrow. And with any luck we'll be done before my family leaves for Australia in a month!
Good Luck to ya.
I can't say this with 100% certainty because we aren't timing every single league but I'd be surprised if we had any DCs this year that took a month to complete. So I think getting one done with that type of window is not something anyone should be concerned about.

And yes we need to get the 4-hour option shown on the Contests and Countdown pages. No doubt about that.
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Re: Do not draft with list?

Post by 76erfan » Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:37 am

I'll say this. Cbs has slow draft option and between midnight and 8 am or whatever option u decide time doesn't count. U can still pick but clock actually adds times.

So let's say I picked at 4:05 pm est...8 hours takes me to 5 min after midnight. Since clock doesn't run midnight to 8. My clock expires at 805 am..you could shorten that to say 4 hours over night or whatever but the clock automatically is coded to acct for sleep time.

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