Slow pokes and Draft Champion Leagues

[Baseball Furies]

Oh holy Jesus, I just about blew a gasket reading most of this crap (surprising, I know ), but I would be remiss if I didn't chime in. First of all, as much as I hate to ever admit this, Gekko is 100% spot on with just about everything he has said here. [why do I feel like I need a shower now after just writing that?]

Every year it's the same bullshit story when it comes to these drafts. It always comes down to the small minority of contrarian idiots dictating how these should go for the vast majority who want these drafts to move quickly and have it be a fun and enjoyable drafting experience. There's a reason why the word "SLOW" was removed from these drafts years ago and it's because they were becoming insufferable and not enjoyable, and in many cases they still are. As technology has innovated and changed, so has the need to have these contests move more quickly and efficiently. In case people aren't up on current events, we now live in an instant gratification society which the advent of social media in all its forms has confirmed. And just like no one wants to go back to the days of pencil and paper and waiting for the box scores to come out in the newspaper to find out how their fantasy teams are doing days later, they sure as shit don't want these drafts taking weeks to complete, and if they do, then just create a slow draft category and call it "Draft Champions Chess" or something and keep these people separate from the 99% of us who love to get these things done in two weeks or less which should be the standard. I have been running Fast DC's for the last few years since I came up with the concept as an alternative to these slow DC's, and I have never yet even once had anyone who tried this format ever tell me that they like the drafts that take 3 to 4 weeks or more better. Never.

It's truly a joke that we have to have this conversation anymore. These drafts need to become faster even than they are now. This company has survived the many incarnations of this format and all the time changes that have been made over the years, and it is still filling these drafts by the hundreds despite those who may complain that they don't want these drafts to be "too fast" because their lives off the grid during the week don't allow it. It's not only bad PR, it's also bad business to have these drafts drag on and on as Mark and others have stated time and time again on here as I have virtually from day one. All this does is create more animosity and disdain for this format rather than enjoyment as it should for its good paying customers. Not to go all Star Trek and Spock on everyone, but the needs of the many need to outweigh the needs of the few or the one. So we need an average pick time clock, the sleep clock problem to be remedied, the amount of time allotted for picks to be even less than it is now (with even more reduced time from rounds 31-50 being a great idea), and different categories of draft champions drafts for people to choose from and not just ones that cater to newbies or customers who want to make these their one or two drafts for the season, and who have nothing better to do than to take all day and weeks to do it in. And one last time on the subject of the obvious: FASTER DRAFTS MEAN MORE DRAFTS BEING COMPLETED AND PURCHASED! Not sure what the disconnect is here on this.

And in closing, I will be more than happy to banter the finer points of anyone's "rationale" and "logic" in response to this who has a dissenting opinion as to why slow drafts are better and more fun and enjoyable for us all.

[Thurman15]

Excellent post Mike. You do indeed speak for the majority. Maybe there could be just a couple of 4 or 8 hour drafts for those that really desire them, but the majority seem to want 2 hour, or even 1 hour. Again, good post Mike.

[Lunatic]

Here is my solution - I won't do a slow draft.

[thepats]

I play a lot of the slow drafts. Really enjoy them but would enjoy more if they were quicker. A 2 hour clock would be great!

[Tom Kessenich]

Some good suggestions in this thread. Like Darik, I also like the idea of reducing the time later in the draft. I asked tech about that and with all that's being done now it isn't something that can be added at the moment. But it will be discussed in the future for sure. I definitely think there's merit to that suggestion.

Couple things - given the increases in participation in our DCs every year, it strikes me as odd that there could be a belief the format is broken. It clearly isn't. Can it be refined? Absolutely and we've taken steps to do that with the multi-round autopick options now available and more options are being worked on now to improve the experience further. But the fact the format continues to grow every year is strong evidence there are far more positives in terms of what we offer than negatives. As always, though, our top priority remains improving the experience for all of our contests and we will consistently do that each and every year.

As far as posts on the boards, we welcome them (and yes even the ones that aren't as nice to us), but I'd caution anyone who believes they represent the majority viewpoints. The truth is the vast majority of our participants in all of our contests do not post on the boards. Many don't even lurk here or have an interest in them whatsoever. One thing about message boards is they tend to reflect the minority in terms of participants. An often loud and passionate minority to be sure but still a minority.

This doesn't mean the posts, suggestions or ideas are invalid. On the contrary. However, because 10, 15 or 20 people want something here and post about it here doesn't mean that's what the thousands of players in our contest prefer. So rather than viewing Post X as clearly the one that is the way to go, I'd suggest viewing it as an idea, one that many may agree with but not a guarantee that's what the majority want. I think that often gets lost in these discussions when it's the most salient point.

When we began the DCs, 8 hours was the preferred time but some thought it was too slow. This year we've reduced it to 4 and again some think it's too slow. Perhaps reducing it to 2 hours is the magic number but based on the history my inclination is that if we did reduce it further there still would be people complaining it's taking too long. Could a personal clock change things? Maybe but based on the feedback we received from the MFL10 players (and these guys play HUNDREDS of DCs), that clock wasn't something that meant a whole lot to them. It was more of a feature but not something they demanded or paid much attention to. Not saying that means the same would apply here but just pointing out responses we've received to that from people who have had access to it.

Again, though, we welcome the ideas and as I said, further improving the DCs is a top priority and one we take seriously. We're very pleased with the improvements made so far and are excited about all that is now possible moving forward.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Just a quick reply, Tom.
Eight hours was never the preferred time. It was necessary at the time because folks sleep. We didn't have a night clock at the time, so eight hours was fair for all.
Since the advent of the eight hour clock, technology has grown by leaps and bounds. We hardly ever see an adult without a phone in their hand or pocket.
Drafting in an online draft has never been so easy or less of a time problem.

I have never been in a draft where a drafter complains about the draft going too quickly. And as MTM stated, not one drafter has ever come out of a fast paced draft with anything negative to say.
Like it or not for everybody, technology is making us a faster paced society.
And so it is for DC Drafts.
Few of us wait four hours for a response from a text.

We know the Message Boards may not reflect the overall feelings of all who enter DC Drafts.
But I refuse to believe that they are at least in agreement with the majority on the Boards.
There silence cannot be taken as disagreement.
I believe the Draft Champions format would be successful whether we had a one hour clock or ten hour clock.
It is a format that is cheap enough for some to have as their 'big leagues' for the year.
It is also a ways and means for folks to tinker before they have their 'big leagues' in March.
Don't confuse the popularity of the format as that of most drafters liking the hours deadline.
I believe their can be a sweet spot found, now that we have the night clock.
That sweet spot is less than four hours.

[Tom Kessenich]

I have never been in a draft where a drafter complains about the draft going too quickly.

We have Dan. We've gotten a lot of emails over the years from people who feel they're being rushed. Happens every year and yes it's happening this year too. There are a lot of people who liked 8 hours or 4 now and while that may not be represented here it's not something we can overlook.

But yes as I said we will continue to refine the format. If that means further reducing the time then we will look make the change if that is what people prefer. We just want to be sure we're making the proper changes for the proper reasons.

Of course, if people want 2 hour leagues we can offer them right now. Create a thread, get 15 people to sign up and we'll create the league for 2 hours. Easy to do.

[DOUGHBOYS]

I have never been in a draft where a drafter complains about the draft going too quickly.

We have Dan. We've gotten a lot of emails over the years from people who feel they're being rushed. Happens every year and yes it's happening this year too. There are a lot of people who liked 8 hours or 4 now and while that may not be represented here it's not something we can overlook.

But yes as I said we will continue to refine the format. If that means further reducing the time then we will look make the change if that is what people prefer. We just want to be sure we're making the proper changes for the proper reasons.

Of course, if people want 2 hour leagues we can offer them right now. Create a thread, get 15 people to sign up and we'll create the league for 2 hours. Easy to do.

About the drafters feeling 'rushed'. Interesting.
Most of us come from a 'one minute' background in drafts.
I guess it is hard for some of us to fathom that somebody feels 'rushed' with many, many minutes to think.

About the 'ask us to create a draft'.
We have done that and I'll be asking for one this weekend with the Mia Draft having a one hour clock.
Aside from Mikey and I, not a whole lot of others want to take the time to build a draft with 15 drafters having to be located.
An idea would be to have drafters register for a two hour clock or four hour clock when registering for DC Drafts.
This may work as a gauge for where to set the clock for next year.

[Tom Kessenich]

Yup and as I told you with the Mia draft just send me the info when it's all set to go and I'll get it created for you.

Again, I'm not opposed to the idea of 2 hours being the sweet spot. It very well may be. But I also think that adding more features, which we've already done and will continue to do, is something we want to focus on as well. I'm also not sure that saying 4 hours isn't the sweet spot is a decision that can conclusively be made two months into the drafting season with the new time. I think allowing the entire drafting season to play itself out and then seeing how things went is the way to go. But as I've said we will look at all our contests as we do every year and if there are changes to be made we'll make them.

[DOUGHBOYS]

We appreciate the tools that have been provided.
The problem remains that the drafter who most needs to use those tools, does not use those tools.
The best drafts are drafts where the clock never comes into play.
THAT can be agreed on by all.

Thanks for the listen and follow through, Tom.
Appreciated.

[Tom Kessenich]

It's incumbent upon us to ensure people know the tools exist, why they exist and how best to use them. We can do a better job of that. With the new FAAB setup, for example, we plan to have a video which will walk people through the functions. I think that's an area where we can do more than we have in the past and we'll have that ability now to do a lot of things we never could with STATS or were not in an ideal position to do with them.

[Gekko]

Tom - once average time per pick is added to each owners profile, do you think slow pokes will be exposed and any DC drafts they sign up for will take longer than normal to fill (find 14 other owners to complete the league)?

Just curious, how many weeks/days does the NFBC feel a 4 hour DC should take to complete all 50 rounds?

[Tom Kessenich]

Mark, I don't know what could happen if a personal timer was put on profiles. Is that an overwhelmingly positive thing? Could be. Again, using the feedback from the MFL10 customers it isn't something they placed a high value on. As I posted before, that's not to say it won't be valuable here. Just pointing out the responses we've gotten from those who have had access to it.

My personal opinion based on slow drafts I've done is I'd like to get 3 rounds or so done per day. So in a 50-round draft that comes to around 17 days on average. Some could go quicker, others slower so let's say in the three-week range. I'd say if you're getting done in 21-23 days or so you're doing fine. A day or two longer shouldn't be cause for great consternation but if you're on pace for something longer people do need to pick up the pace.

[Tom Kessenich]

We definitely want these drafts to be fun. We don't want people to feel rushed and we don't want people as if they are excruciatingly painful. So it's up to us to figure out how best to do this. Does that mean lowering the time, adding a personal timer history, further enhancing the tools making sure people know how best to use them? All are things we need to look at and will look at.

As I said with my first post we welcome the suggestions so keep them coming. Thanks.

[Gekko]

I probably missed it, but are the questions and the feedback provided from the MFL10ers posted on the message board somewhere? If so, i’d Like to read their thoughts

[Bronx Yankees]

We definitely want these drafts to be fun. We don't want people to feel rushed and we don't want people as if they are excruciatingly painful. So it's up to us to figure out how best to do this. Does that mean lowering the time, adding a personal timer history, further enhancing the tools making sure people know how best to use them? All are things we need to look at and will look at.

As I said with my first post we welcome the suggestions so keep them coming. Thanks.

Tom - I understand the decision to stick with the four-hour clock as the standard for the time being. What about the eight-hour pause at night? I think there was some discussion previously about possibly cutting that down some, perhaps to four or six hours. I think what drives some folks crazy is that previously the maximum time an absent owner could kill was eight hours per pick. We shortened the clock, which was great. We also paused the clock at night, which was a reasonable trade-off for the shortened clock. But, now, between the four-hour clock and the eight-hour pause, an absent owner can kill 12 hours on a single pick. Shortening the pause to four hours would put things back to the way they were, where no owner ever has more than eight hours to make a single pick. Even compromising on a six-hour pause would reduce the maximum time from 12 hours down to ten hours.

Just a suggestion. This is a not intended as a cure-all, but I know that where an absent (and often non-communicative) owner is on the clock when the nighttime pause kicks in, it is especially annoying if it stops the draft for up to 12 hours. Thanks.

Mike

[Tom Kessenich]

We definitely want these drafts to be fun. We don't want people to feel rushed and we don't want people as if they are excruciatingly painful. So it's up to us to figure out how best to do this. Does that mean lowering the time, adding a personal timer history, further enhancing the tools making sure people know how best to use them? All are things we need to look at and will look at.

As I said with my first post we welcome the suggestions so keep them coming. Thanks.

Tom - I understand the decision to stick with the four-hour clock as the standard for the time being. What about the eight-hour pause at night?

Definitely something we're looking at Mike. I don't know if we'll make that change now since drafts have begun or not but it is something we're looking at.

[acesfull23]

FASTER DRAFTS MEAN MORE DRAFTS BEING COMPLETED AND PURCHASED! Not sure what the disconnect is here on this.

I think the disconnect is your assumption that you put a statement in bold and it automatically becomes true.

Surely you have some data to backup this claim...that would help.

[Gekko]

For me, it seems like there are two obvious improvements available to the great system already set up:
1. Reduce sleep clock from 8 hours to 6. Cutting it to 4 will likely cause major heartburn due to time zone differences.
2a. If the programming is possible (I’m sure it is), have rounds 1-30 at 4 hours per pick and rounds 31-50 at 2 hours per pick
OR
2b. have rounds 1-30 at 4 hours per pick, rounds 31-40 at 2 hours per pick and rounds 41-50 at 1 hour per pick.

With either 2a or 2b, This will help prevent owners from “camping out” in February/March simply waiting for spring training news to hit before making their selection.

[Fourslot40]

The fun in this contest is being completely sucked out of the room. I'm going to speak up for the folks that work for a living, like sleep clocks and use these drafts for early preparation in freaking January. Nothing is positive about this slow DC experience anymore IMO. I find that it's mostly in part to the complainers that drive the negativity in the chat room and on the boards... and not the few slow pokes that say little.

[Gekko]

4 slot, how about you and anyone else who wants an 8 hour clock just join the same league. Simple. U guys can stew in your own pot. Leave the more attentive owners out of it

[Gekko]

Tom - can the NFBC simply just list on the registration page different options to sign up? 2 hour, 4 hour and 8 hour? Let your customers decide

[Gekko]

some naming ideas for the NFBC...

2Hr/pick with 8 hour sleep clock = the “owners with no jobs league”. Be done in 2 weeks
4Hr/pick with 8 hour sleep clock = the “owners with part-time jobs league”. Be done in 3-4 weeks
8Hr/pick with 8 hour sleep clock = the “4slot owners that work for a living and like sleep clocks league”. Be done in 2 months

[Tom Kessenich]

Tom - can the NFBC simply just list on the registration page different options to sign up? 2 hour, 4 hour and 8 hour? Let your customers decide

We have the 4-hour leagues for this year Mark. We're not making a change two months into the draft season. Sorry. As I posted earlier, if people want a faster draft start a signup thread here on the boards and as soon as it sells out it will be created. That's easy to do.

[Hollenole]

I think having Choices is the key. There are people who in enjoy taking their time and not feeling rushed and there are people who feel the faster the better. IMO having Options at sign up to matchup like minded drafters(time wise) would be the only solution that would actually solve anything. Right now there seems to be an attempt to find a happy medium and the problem is there is no happy medium. It's like Gekko said what you have is the fast drafters making up time for the slow drafters. If everyone took 3 of their 4 hours every pick (like some do), then the drafts would take 93.75 days each to complete(3hours * 15players = 45hours * 50rounds= 2250hours /24= 93.75 days) not including the 8 hour overnight pause.

I personally love the overnight pause as this was my biggest complaint before (I need all the beauty sleep I can get). I think just having an option of 2 4 or 8 hour drafts would solve most any valid complaints of the guys "carrying" these drafts now. With the extra options everyone would be choosing their pace so no reason to complain(although I am sure there would be a few complain no matter what). Whether it's this year or next, doing this would also answer the question of whether this would actually lead to more signups or not. My personal opinion is it would, but I also only do one draft at a time and I sign up for the next when my previous draft is ending. So I am biased. I will say having customers try and create their own leagues is not a great idea. While I am sure the drafts are fun, they end up being the same guys drafting with each other over and over, because like you said the silent majority doesn't frequent these message boards.

The biggest issue I see is how this would play as far as an overall pool goes. Some may not like the idea of having to compete with teams with more time and the faster drafts inevitably would end up with "stronger" players drafting against one another causing somewhat of a competitive disadvantage? Anyways just my $.02. Carry on.