Next Year is Coming Fast

[DOUGHBOYS]

Almost 400 'views' on this topic in 24 hours.
Proving that the silent minority is, indeed, the majority on these Boards
It's also nice to know that these Boards are not dead.
Thanks for tuning in.

[Yah Mule]

I know that in the future, we will have approached Ohtani in the wrong way.
Zack Greinke would never, ever be started as a hitter in NFBC leagues. Ohtani is and will again next year.
My argument is clearly falling on deaf ears.
Thanks for the listen.

I'm not comparing the two but I'm saying there's other pitchers who's hitting stats could have some value to a team so why would Ohtani be the only one? Yes he's the best and yes his skills are amazing but the rules have always been that a player in a hitting spot earns hitting stats and a player in a pitching spot earns pitching stats.

Having Ohtani's hitting stats count when he's in a pitching spot would be allowing that team to have 14.5 hitting spots. That doesn't make sense. Having the option to start him as a hitter or a pitcher every week makes the most sense, just like we have the option to start Marwin Gonzalez at any position we want any week.

I understand your argument that Ohtani is amazing and it sucks to have some of his stats wasted away but giving that team an extra 0.5 hitting spot (because I'm guessing he'll hit in about half the games) just doesn't make sense either.

The only other option I see would be that if you draft Ohtani, you don't get his hitting stats for free but you get the option to start Ohtani as a pitcher for the full week and then use a hitting spot for Ohtani the hitter for the Friday-Sunday series. I'm not sure how this could be programmed though to have the same player in 2 lineup spots at the same time but it would definitely make more sense than having free hitting stats from a pitcher.

I understand your argument here that Ohtani's hitting stats on days he pitches confers an advantage that no other team - say the owner of Greinke - enjoys by receiving his hitting stats. The only way to eliminate that advantage is to simply not count his hitting stats on days he pitches. Although, this solution further diminishes his hitting stats.

[Philippe27]

I knew that I would get that argument.
We can't follow MLB exactly.
It would not be fair in a fantasy league to have a drafter use an extra player or have an extra roster spot.
If IT could find a way where his drafter could use him as both, wonderful.
No worries.
It won't happen.

In that case I really don't get your passion about this because Ohtani as a hitter wouldn't be worth a roster spot in most leagues. Last year he had 129 PA until June 6th when he got hurt so on pace for 324 PA. Even if they use him a little more as a hitter, he won't get more than 350-375 PA and last year he didn't steal any bases until he stopped pitching.

Omigosh.
So you would not start him among your 14 hitters?

As a full time hitter of course I would but not as a hitter who won't hit the day before and after he pitches. If he pitches on the week-end he's startable Monday-Thursday and if he pitches Tuesday or Wednesday then he's startable on the week-end. I'd rather use that spot to find a marginal hitter with 7 games and good matchups and I'll get more value our of those roster spots.

[Deadheadz]

In football, if a running back throws a 60 yard pass for a touchdown, it counts!
He's not a quarterback, but he did it. We saw it. It counts!

In Football if any offensive player throws a pass for an interception that also counts. Negative points!
You’re making a good argument for counting offensive stats by pitchers...but just the really good ones.


A compromise:
Yes, split Ohtani (and any other ‘designated 2-way player’) into Player(P) and Player(H) with the IT requirement that when you draft this player you get BOTH.

Ohtani would fill one Pitcher slot -AND- one Hitter slot. Therefore you’d lose the ability to draft a player in the final round since your roster would be full.

You get the benefit of having the 2-way player but no ‘bonus’ or ‘advantage’ of an extra slot or half slot as mentioned in an earlier post.

Player(P) locks for the week just like all Pitchers. Player(H) can be swapped into or out of the lineup mid week just like any Hitter.

Given these restrictions, would you draft Ohtani for 2020?

Give us an hypothetical ADP for Ohtani assuming he must use up two slots on your roster.

[Philippe27]

In football, if a running back throws a 60 yard pass for a touchdown, it counts!
He's not a quarterback, but he did it. We saw it. It counts!

In Football if any offensive player throws a pass for an interception that also counts. Negative points!
You’re making a good argument for counting offensive stats by pitchers...but just the really good ones.


A compromise:
Yes, split Ohtani (and any other ‘designated 2-way player’) into Player(P) and Player(H) with the IT requirement that when you draft this player you get BOTH.

Ohtani would fill one Pitcher slot -AND- one Hitter slot. Therefore you’d lose the ability to draft a player in the final round since your roster would be full.

You get the benefit of having the 2-way player but no ‘bonus’ or ‘advantage’ of an extra slot or half slot as mentioned in an earlier post.

Player(P) locks for the week just like all Pitchers. Player(H) can be swapped into or out of the lineup mid week just like any Hitter.

Given these restrictions, would you draft Ohtani for 2020?

Give us an hypothetical ADP for Ohtani assuming he must use up two slots on your roster.

If we do it that way then the question becomes whether Ohtani the hitter is worth a 30th round pick and then being forced to hang on to him all year. Based on my current projections for him as a hitter, he's worth a roster spot at about 425-450 PA. He'd have the advantage of his PA's being grouped together but being UT only hurts his value. I'd be surprised if he got more than 350 PA though so I don't think Ohtani the hitter will be worth a roster spot, definitely not in a 12, argument could be made in the 15.

In other words, doing it that way would hurt his value which I don't think is the goal.

Ohtani has to be just one roster spot, whether you can start him as both a hitter and pitcher at the same time or not could be up for debate (I think it should be one or the other).

[croakerkane]

Almost 400 'views' on this topic in 24 hours.
Proving that the silent minority is, indeed, the majority on these Boards
It's also nice to know that these Boards are not dead.
Thanks for tuning in.

No offense, but, Duh..... You want to change the whole fantasy baseball landscape for a once in a generation player? He'll be a multi-positional player next year. You can draft him at will, and then decide which of the two positions you want to start him at in a given week. Starting pitcher or DH/outfielder. Under your argument, I could start Bregman twice at both shortstop AND third base in a given week. God forbid if Marwin Gonzalez got hot for a week or two. Ridiculous.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Almost 400 'views' on this topic in 24 hours.
Proving that the silent minority is, indeed, the majority on these Boards
It's also nice to know that these Boards are not dead.
Thanks for tuning in.

No offense, but, Duh..... You want to change the whole fantasy baseball landscape for a once in a generation player? He'll be a multi-positional player next year. You can draft him at will, and then decide which of the two positions you want to start him at in a given week. Starting pitcher or DH/outfielder. Under your argument, I could start Bregman twice at both shortstop AND third base in a given week. God forbid if Marwin Gonzalez got hot for a week or two. Ridiculous.

You're confusing multi-positions with a two-way player.
Much as previous posters are confusing a good hitting pitcher with a two-way player.
True two-way players can help in 10 categories, not five.
They are not like Bregman or Gonzalez or Zack Greinke.
Incomparable, as of now.
By the way, another two-way player, Brendan McKay starts tonight.
There are others in the minor leagues.
Ohtani is the genesis, there are others coming.
Our hobby should be embracing such players.
They aren't. Have it your way. All good.
I understand resistance to any change. Happens constantly in our hobby. Don't break the status quo.
Way back when, twice a week lineups were called 'ridiculous'. Yet, here we are. Now, a norm.
When instituted, some said the fantasy landscape would change with too many decisions. We weathered that storm!
Change takes time. It's too early for most to fathom these players. Got it.
Compartmentalizing two-way players is the answer for now. Got it.
In the future, I believe we will look back and chuckle that we minimized these players.

[DOUGHBOYS]

I really don't expect anyone to agree with me.
The point of my original post was to get the NFBC going in preparing for players like Ohtani, McKay, and other minor leaguers doing the same next year.
Get a ruling in what will happen with these players.
We like to think that we have a perfect game here.
This is why, after the first few years of the NFBC, that rule changes are very few.
We hate change.
The game, on the field is changing though.
Sooner or later, much as we don't like it, ours will as well.

[Philippe27]

I really don't expect anyone to agree with me.
The point of my original post was to get the NFBC going in preparing for players like Ohtani, McKay, and other minor leaguers doing the same next year.
Get a ruling in what will happen with these players.
We like to think that we have a perfect game here.
This is why, after the first few years of the NFBC, that rule changes are very few.
We hate change.
The game, on the field is changing though.
Sooner or later, much as we don't like it, ours will as well.

It's not because we disagree with your suggestion that we're reluctant to change. I'd be in favor of quite a few changes and new contest ideas but I just don't think your suggestion makes sense.

[DOUGHBOYS]

I really don't expect anyone to agree with me.
The point of my original post was to get the NFBC going in preparing for players like Ohtani, McKay, and other minor leaguers doing the same next year.
Get a ruling in what will happen with these players.
We like to think that we have a perfect game here.
This is why, after the first few years of the NFBC, that rule changes are very few.
We hate change.
The game, on the field is changing though.
Sooner or later, much as we don't like it, ours will as well.

It's not because we disagree with your suggestion that we're reluctant to change. I'd be in favor of quite a few changes and new contest ideas but I just don't think your suggestion makes sense.

What are your new ideas?

How does it make sense to utilize only half of a two-way players abilities and not all of their talents?

(I really don't expect it to make much sense to most.
We've never had these type of players. Entirely new to our game.
It is hard for most to recognize a possible 10 category player.
Cut him in half so he can be like the other players. I get it. It's against fantasy baseball principles of using all possible stats, but I get it.
And chalk up another victory for daily leagues.
They have more freedoms. They can use Ohtani, McKay, and other two-way players during the same week as a pitcher and hitter if they choose.
We will not.
Of course, THAT makes sense...woo hoo)

[Philippe27]

I didn't say I had any new ideas, I said I'd be fine with changes. I'd be fine with making it OBP instead of AVG, finding a way to increase the value of middle relievers (not holds though), replacing SB with something else, all minor leagues being available for bidding (even if they haven't been called up), new contest with FAAB once a month instead of every week, a true best ball with zero in season management.

You probably disagree with a lot of those ideas, that's normal that's life and I won't generalize and say that you're reluctant to change because you disagree with these.

The reason I disagree with your idea is that in my opinion it makes no sense to have the same player as both a hitter and a pitcher in your lineup at the same time. I also think that having the option to have Ohtani as a hitter or pitcher in a week will be an advantage. If he has a tough matchup, instead of sitting him and wasting a bench spot, you'll be able to start him as a hitter. Coming off TJ, he'll likely be on an innings limit as well so he'll skip starts at some point and can be used as a hitter in those weeks as well.

[DOUGHBOYS]

I didn't say I had any new ideas, I said I'd be fine with changes. I'd be fine with making it OBP instead of AVG, finding a way to increase the value of middle relievers (not holds though), replacing SB with something else, all minor leagues being available for bidding (even if they haven't been called up), new contest with FAAB once a month instead of every week, a true best ball with zero in season management.

You probably disagree with a lot of those ideas, that's normal that's life and I won't generalize and say that you're reluctant to change because you disagree with these.

The reason I disagree with your idea is that in my opinion it makes no sense to have the same player as both a hitter and a pitcher in your lineup at the same time. I also think that having the option to have Ohtani as a hitter or pitcher in a week will be an advantage. If he has a tough matchup, instead of sitting him and wasting a bench spot, you'll be able to start him as a hitter. Coming off TJ, he'll likely be on an innings limit as well so he'll skip starts at some point and can be used as a hitter in those weeks as well.

OF COURSE, it makes no sense to you!
No player has ever done it.

Good luck to you.

[DOUGHBOYS]

" I also think that having the option to have Ohtani as a hitter or pitcher in a week will be an advantage. If he has a tough matchup, instead of sitting him and wasting a bench spot, you'll be able to start him as a hitter. Coming off TJ, he'll likely be on an innings limit as well so he'll skip starts at some point and can be used as a hitter in those weeks as well."

And what about McKay? And the next and next?

Fantasy players do not want to be saved from themselves.
They want more options.
Giving them less and saying they're better off for it is a piss-poor declaration.

It's alright. We're getting half of these players skills. Its been decided. You win!

Again, good luck.

[croakerkane]

Almost 400 'views' on this topic in 24 hours.
Proving that the silent minority is, indeed, the majority on these Boards
It's also nice to know that these Boards are not dead.
Thanks for tuning in.

No offense, but, Duh..... You want to change the whole fantasy baseball landscape for a once in a generation player? He'll be a multi-positional player next year. You can draft him at will, and then decide which of the two positions you want to start him at in a given week. Starting pitcher or DH/outfielder. Under your argument, I could start Bregman twice at both shortstop AND third base in a given week. God forbid if Marwin Gonzalez got hot for a week or two. Ridiculous.

You're confusing multi-positions with a two-way player.
Much as previous posters are confusing a good hitting pitcher with a two-way player.
True two-way players can help in 10 categories, not five.
They are not like Bregman or Gonzalez or Zack Greinke.
Incomparable, as of now.
By the way, another two-way player, Brendan McKay starts tonight.
There are others in the minor leagues.
Ohtani is the genesis, there are others coming.
Our hobby should be embracing such players.
They aren't. Have it your way. All good.
I understand resistance to any change. Happens constantly in our hobby. Don't break the status quo.
Way back when, twice a week lineups were called 'ridiculous'. Yet, here we are. Now, a norm.
When instituted, some said the fantasy landscape would change with too many decisions. We weathered that storm!
Change takes time. It's too early for most to fathom these players. Got it.
Compartmentalizing two-way players is the answer for now. Got it.
In the future, I believe we will look back and chuckle that we minimized these players.

I see your point. Well stated. I think what you're really campaigning for is daily lineup changes. Having one player occupy two roster spots on the same day should not be allowed. Splitting one player into two for fantasy purposes is something no one should support. But if you want to start Ohtani at DH five or six days a week and at P one or two, then daily lineup changes is the way to go. If you want to do that, sign up at Yahoo. I much prefer the challenge the NFBC presents with weekly P/bi-weekly H changes. Under this format, you'll simply have to decide whether he gives you more in a given week as a DH or as a P. There's nothing wrong with that, and it doesn't inflate his draft value. He's not the number one pitcher. He's not the number one hitter. But I agree that all of a sudden he might be both if he's accruing both hitter and pitcher stats at the same time. That doesn't work in fantasy baseball. If the NFBC decides to go to daily lineup changes to accommodate these players, then fine, but I don't think they will. And, by the way, Ohtani is not the "genesis." In no way has he proven himself to be a long term effective Major League pitcher. You have to stay healthy to do that. McKay has the Yankees next on his slate. Owners would have to decide whether to start him as a P against the Yankees, or as a H with the games he'll start there. What's wrong with that?

[DOUGHBOYS]

I am not for daily changes.
We've never had players like this before. Equating their use to Multi-position players, good hitting pitchers, or daily changes does not serve them well at all.
We have not had players like this in baseball before. Equating them to something in the past is wrong.

Look, when fantasy baseball started (yes, I am very old ), we would talk about how Babe Ruth would have REALLY ruled his day with our hobby.
And, he still would have after the Yankees made him a regular outfielder.
But, before that, when pitching and hitting, we would marvel at how he would have been KING over other players.
Not with our system.
Over 100 years later, Ruth's owner would have to pick between his offensive and pitching skills.
Anyway, we have our answer. We would have depressed Ruth's skills. woo hoo
Our hobby lives off stats, yet we want to diminish players who both hit and pitch a ball well.

I know it is hard to wrap a mind around such a player.
But, there are more coming. Are we going to diminish each two-way players skill set into only half their stats? Compartmentalize them?
We are.
We are because it does not seem right to 'allow' such a player in our game and use him to the fullest.
I have beat the shit out of this dead horse. I'm sorry, but not sorry at the same time.
I know that nothing I say will change any minds out there. Most minds can't fathom having somebody who both pitches and hits in our lineups.
I just want those minds open for the future.

[DOUGHBOYS]

"Owners would have to decide whether to start him as a P against the Yankees, or as a H with the games he'll start there. What's wrong with that?"

We are making the two-way player into a multi-position player in doing this. We play him at one position or the other.
What is wrong with that is that multi-position players have ALL their stats count.
If Bregman has a week where he hits five homers as a shortstop on your team, it counts.
If Bregman has an 0-20 week as a third baseman, it counts.
Not for Ohtani or McKay or the next two way player.
His owners may see 7ip, 3h, 0 er, 9k and also hit .300, 5r, 3hr, 5 rbi, 1sb . They will not receive those stats, only half. Not all, like Bregman or some other multi-positional player, just half.
We are ignoring the unique skill set.
I Understand.
It's not right. But understood.

[Deadheadz]

I am not for daily changes.
We've never had players like this before. Equating their use to Multi-position players, good hitting pitchers, or daily changes does not serve them well at all.
We have not had players like this in baseball before. Equating them to something in the past is wrong.

But equating to NFL players is?

If your Running Back tosses a TD pass it counts toward his fantasy stats, right?
If he throws an INT that counts too right?
That’s an argument for all players to count 10 categories.

If you want new ideas, how about this:

Hitters - 14
Pitchers - 9
Two-Way - 1

24 man roster.
Any player rostered into 2-Way counts 10 categories. The other 23 slots stay the same as now.

When there are 15 two-way players, it’ll be fair because everyone can draft one.

Until then someone gets an unprecedented advantage.

[DOUGHBOYS]

So, we have some saying that Ohtani is 'just not that good'.
And another saying it will give an 'unprecedented advantage'.
The truth is probably somewhere in between.
None of us know for sure.
Nor will we ever know, with the formatting of two-way players being handled to cut off their nose, despite their face.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Seriously, thanks to all who have joined this thread.
Nearly 1,000 views on Boards that are seemingly dying.
We still have the passion.
Don't ever lose that.

[Yah Mule]

Can we get a ruling on Vince Velasquez?

[Greg Ambrosius]

Can we get a ruling on Vince Velasquez?

The incredible throw to the plate and the diving grab should make him Outfielder-eligible, but alas, he gets just one position in the NFBC. He remains Pitcher-only!!

[DOUGHBOYS]

Can we get a ruling on Vince Velasquez?

The incredible throw to the plate and the diving grab should make him Outfielder-eligible, but alas, he gets just one position in the NFBC. He remains Pitcher-only!!

Well, heck yeah!
If a hitter that has more homers than Vlad and has as many stolen bases as Trout is also going to be a pitcher-only next year, then that makes total sense!
Oh, I forgot.....

[Joe Sambito]

Pivoting to a different question for next year, with MLB coming out with their schedule, are we looking at March 19-22 as the big drafting weekend in Vegas next year? Will there be a 2nd weekend?

[Greg Ambrosius]

Pivoting to a different question for next year, with MLB coming out with their schedule, are we looking at March 19-22 as the big drafting weekend in Vegas next year? Will there be a 2nd weekend?

Andy, I made a post about the 2020 MLB opener here:

https://nfbcforums.shgn.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22020

It will be the same schedule as last year with New York and Chicago being held the First Weekend and Las Vegas being held March 19-25. There is not a Second Weekend for Las Vegas as the weekend of March 19-22 is also the first weekend of March Madness.

We did have more people stay on Sunday for drafts and auctions last year than ever before and we even had Main Event leagues live in Las Vegas on Monday and Wednesday nights. We will schedule Main Event leagues Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday again this year. If you haven't stayed in Las Vegas for the Thursday of MLB Opening Day, I highly recommend it. Having 15 MLB games all on that day along with Sweet Sixteen games that night was heaven last year and I'm definitely sticking around for that this year.

We are making good progress right now with the hotel situations. Tom is negotiating with the Stewart Hotel as that has similar space again this year, which worked great with Tout Wars also hosting their events there and SiriusXM and FNTSY Sports Radio having easy access to broadcast. We should know more soon. And I have two good options in Las Vegas again and hopefully will have an answer about the host hotel there after I get back from the NFFC live events.

If you're a part of our NFFC right now, you'll have noticed that we have a promotional partnership in place with MGM Resorts and they are providing some cool benefits and events to our football players. We have every intention of working together with MGM again for baseball 2020 and staying at an MGM Resorts hotel. Stay tuned.

It's all good. Plan accordingly, but first win some 2019 NFBC titles. Good luck all.

[Joe Sambito]

Perfect. Thanks Greg!