Ideas For 2009 NFBC

JohnZ · Post by **JohnZ** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:24 pm

Originally posted by Plymouth:

I think that all cities drafting at the same time is a “key” principle in the structure of the NFBC and I would be very concerned if the NFBC drafts would be changed to say 10:00 AM local time in each city for the following reasons.

1. The perception will be there that drafters in Las Vegas will have an advantage due to the two or three hour time difference because they might be notified by “friends” in Chicago, New York, and Orlando on how the drafts went there and how certain teams were drafting. It would theoretically be possible for a Vegas drafter to know almost the entire draft order for a particular team they might be watching in the other draft cities.

2. NFBC players pay money now to see who gets drafted when in satellite leagues and mock drafts, just think how valuable that real NFBC draft ADP information would be to Vegas drafters if they could get that data passed to them via a phone or PC before or during their draft.

3. Vegas drafters would see all the so called “sleepers” and rookies that the other three cities are drafting and when.

4. What would happen if news about a serious injury to a first rounder became public after east coast teams drafted and Vegas had not yet started? Again, advantage to Vegas drafters.

5. You want to televise the main draft some time? You might as well kiss it good bye if you draft at different times in different cities.

NFBC players are already paranoid about everything from their rankings to free agents being available in one league and not another so to me, the draft must take place at the same time. The NFBC has a reputation for its honesty, fairness, timely payouts, and customer service. If any of these things come to be questioned, fair or not, it is all downhill from there, perception is reality.

I think the $1 million prize is a nice idea marketing idea but the odds for the players are tough at best. I know a lot of the players on these boards here are excited about the idea right now, but in reality how many players will put their money where their mouth is when it comes right down to putting the charges on the card. Don’t get me wrong, I like the idea but I think it will be a struggle getting the NBC sold out. Today’s economy is working against you too.

John 1) How does that possibly help someone? How can you focus 100% on your draft when thinking about another league. Leagues are drafted so differently, it's going to do more harm than good.

2) How could someone possibly process ADP data from all leagues back east. They won't even be done. By the time someone could possibly do that, Vegas would be in Round 10.

3) If you don't know when to take the "sleepers" before the draft, back east isn't going to help you.

4) This is the only point that has some merit.

This is another reason why the break between both should be as short as possible.

Start times:

LV NFBC 9am NBC 2:30pm

NY/ORL NFBC noon NBC 5:30pm

CHI NFBC 11am NBC 4:30pm

You could get all of this done drafting the same time in all zones.

5) see above.

bjoak · Post by **bjoak** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:02 pm

John,

Those are your opinions. I think the poster made his thoughts pretty clear when he said, 'Perception is reality." Your opinions won't apply to everyone while the perceptions Plymouth speculated on will most certainly apply to some people. I'm not saying it shouldn't happen but the concerns of the participants should be a matter of record and of concern and you can't simply dismiss them by saying they don't make a difference.

[ July 17, 2008, 01:03 AM: Message edited by: bjoak ]

JohnZ · Post by **JohnZ** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:04 pm

Originally posted by bjoak:

John,

Those are your opinions. I think the poster made his thoughts pretty clear when he said, 'Perception is reality." Your opinions won't apply to everyone while the perceptions Plymouth speculated on will most certainly apply to some people. I'm not saying it shouldn't happen but the concerns of the participants should be a matter of record and of concern and you can't simply dismiss them by saying they don't make a difference. Yes, we know you are paranoid about everything. Heaven forbid drafting an hour earlier.

How could my opinion ever apply to everyone if you are reading it? I have no doubt his opinions apply to many, why is that a concern?

Just because he says it doesn't make it true. It may or may not be. I don't think it is. He made a nice post. I didn't agree with most of it and replied. BFD. I've even came up with a solution to his concerns.

I've run 500+ 16-team, 25 man, phone drafts in my day. I know what can and can't be done. I know that drafting based off of what someone is doing 3000 miles away is a ticket to disaster.

I also know that you get tired when you get a long break. There were many a year when I ran 4 of them on the last possible day. The adrenaline flows great until you get a break.

Many people posted that we could do two snake drafts with no problem and Greg has changed his initial response.

That's my opinion. Based on experience. Feel free to prove it wrong.

We'll all post our opinions and Greg will make another great decision, as it should be.

bjoak · Post by **bjoak** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:53 pm

To attempt to clarify, the NFBC has a clientele. If some of those customers have a concern, it should be heard. Whether it is right or wrong doesn't make a difference to some degree. It may reflect upon the business in a certain way. It may be a harbinger of arguments to come. At any rate, arguing with one person because your opinion is different doesn't really help in my own humble opinion.

Again, I think I am just reexplaining the 'perception is reality' part of Plymouth's post which I am not sure you are getting. If people perceive there to be a problem (whether it is a real problem or not), it will become a reality that Greg will have to deal with at some point. You can't argue that away.

JohnZ · Post by **JohnZ** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:07 pm

Originally posted by bjoak:

To attempt to clarify, the NFBC has a clientele. If some of those customers have a concern, it should be heard. Whether it is right or wrong doesn't make a difference to some degree.Where did I say he shouldn't post a concern? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Where does it say I can't respond to a MB post? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

JohnZ · Post by **JohnZ** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:29 pm

Originally posted by bjoak:

Again, I think I am just reexplaining the 'perception is reality' part of Plymouth's post which I am not sure you are getting. If people perceive there to be a problem (whether it is a real problem or not), it will become a reality that Greg will have to deal with at some point. You can't argue that away. I can if I have facts to back them up.

I understand his "perception is reality". It's a huge part/concern of running any business. I'm running three right now. How many have you ever run?

I responded because not only do I perceive that he is wrong, I have lived the REALITY that he is wrong, except for item 4 as noted.

Everyone can read what is written and then make their own opinion. I'm not concerned if you agree with me. I'm concerned that this great product is made better, just like Plymouth was.

I more than welcome his response, as it will only lead to a better game in the long run. That's the reality that I live in. Open debate back and forth until we get it right. And I know that's the way Greg operates. It's the only way to have lasting success.

bjoak · Post by **bjoak** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:55 pm

I think if you look at Plymouth's post again you will see that he was very careful to state his thoughts as perceptions that people might have rather than his own fool-proof opinions. I think he would say that you can completely change his mind and it wouldn't matter because tomorrow 10 more people will show up saying the exact same thing. He was going out of his way to not pick a fight about his various points, as I have.

Good luck running your business.

JohnZ · Post by **JohnZ** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:38 pm

Originally posted by bjoak:

I think if you look at Plymouth's post again you will see that he was very careful to state his thoughts as perceptions that people might have rather than his own fool-proof opinions. I think he would say that you can completely change his mind and it wouldn't matter because tomorrow 10 more people will show up saying the exact same thing. He was going out of his way to not pick a fight about his various points, as I have.

Good luck running your business. Correct. I responded to those perceptions.

I never thought he was trying to pick a fight.

All of us in this biz battle the perception thing at times. It's quite often that things are posted on MB's that aren't 100% factual (most are very minor in nature), so I hope you'll understand that squelching them has become second nature to most of us. I was just in LV with another contest guy and he had to do the same thing.

I have no doubt that Plymouth posted very legit concerns. I hope I've helped ease some of them.

Let me put it in terms you can understand

If I posted that I perceived that you were only the 51st best lifetime owner, you would come back with the reality that you are #46.

Let's get back to worrying about why our staffs suck so much.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:21 am

Originally posted by Plymouth:

I think that all cities drafting at the same time is a “key” principle in the structure of the NFBC and I would be very concerned if the NFBC drafts would be changed to say 10:00 AM local time in each city for the following reasons.

1. The perception will be there that drafters in Las Vegas will have an advantage due to the two or three hour time difference because they might be notified by “friends” in Chicago, New York, and Orlando on how the drafts went there and how certain teams were drafting. It would theoretically be possible for a Vegas drafter to know almost the entire draft order for a particular team they might be watching in the other draft cities.

2. NFBC players pay money now to see who gets drafted when in satellite leagues and mock drafts, just think how valuable that real NFBC draft ADP information would be to Vegas drafters if they could get that data passed to them via a phone or PC before or during their draft.

3. Vegas drafters would see all the so called “sleepers” and rookies that the other three cities are drafting and when.

4. What would happen if news about a serious injury to a first rounder became public after east coast teams drafted and Vegas had not yet started? Again, advantage to Vegas drafters.

5. You want to televise the main draft some time? You might as well kiss it good bye if you draft at different times in different cities.

NFBC players are already paranoid about everything from their rankings to free agents being available in one league and not another so to me, the draft must take place at the same time. The NFBC has a reputation for its honesty, fairness, timely payouts, and customer service. If any of these things come to be questioned, fair or not, it is all downhill from there, perception is reality.

I think the $1 million prize is a nice idea marketing idea but the odds for the players are tough at best. I know a lot of the players on these boards here are excited about the idea right now, but in reality how many players will put their money where their mouth is when it comes right down to putting the charges on the card. Don’t get me wrong, I like the idea but I think it will be a struggle getting the NBC sold out. Today’s economy is working against you too.

John Plymouth dropped a lot of truth on his…

#1 Plymouth ABSOLUTELY has a point. If all main event drafts start at the same LOCAL time, Vegas drafters do have an advantage being the last ones to draft. There are times when players get hurt and/or injury news comes out DURING THE DRAFT. This year was no exception. News broke about John Lackey missing significant time during the 5th/6th round of the NFBC main event THIS YEAR. I remember thinking that most people would have shot themselves in the foot if they didn’t have a BlackBerry. Again, ABSOLUTE VALID POINT.

#2 While ADP’s won’t be processed, the Vegas folks will receive info that “Steve Jupinka” took these 10 players to start his team. Same goes for all the other top players. If you think that won’t happen, YOU ARE FOOLING YOURSELF. A simple text message accomplishes that VERY EASILY.

#3 Again, if you know what NY/FL owners to pay attention to, you’ll know their players (including sleepers).

#4 Agreed.

What I don’t agree with is his notion that players would like the $1,000,000 bonus but wouldn’t play because of the odds. Are you kidding me? If there’s a way for me to get 4 teams, sign me up. Fantasy Baseball is a game of mostly skill (yes, there is some luck). If you think you have the skill, the $1,000,000 is one of the most attractive bonuses I can ever think of.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:59 am

Originally posted by Plymouth:

I think that all cities drafting at the same time is a “key” principle in the structure of the NFBC and I would be very concerned if the NFBC drafts would be changed to say 10:00 AM local time in each city for the following reasons.

1. The perception will be there that drafters in Las Vegas will have an advantage due to the two or three hour time difference because they might be notified by “friends” in Chicago, New York, and Orlando on how the drafts went there and how certain teams were drafting. It would theoretically be possible for a Vegas drafter to know almost the entire draft order for a particular team they might be watching in the other draft cities.

2. NFBC players pay money now to see who gets drafted when in satellite leagues and mock drafts, just think how valuable that real NFBC draft ADP information would be to Vegas drafters if they could get that data passed to them via a phone or PC before or during their draft.

3. Vegas drafters would see all the so called “sleepers” and rookies that the other three cities are drafting and when.

4. What would happen if news about a serious injury to a first rounder became public after east coast teams drafted and Vegas had not yet started? Again, advantage to Vegas drafters.

5. You want to televise the main draft some time? You might as well kiss it good bye if you draft at different times in different cities.

NFBC players are already paranoid about everything from their rankings to free agents being available in one league and not another so to me, the draft must take place at the same time. The NFBC has a reputation for its honesty, fairness, timely payouts, and customer service. If any of these things come to be questioned, fair or not, it is all downhill from there, perception is reality.

I think the $1 million prize is a nice idea marketing idea but the odds for the players are tough at best. I know a lot of the players on these boards here are excited about the idea right now, but in reality how many players will put their money where their mouth is when it comes right down to putting the charges on the card. Don’t get me wrong, I like the idea but I think it will be a struggle getting the NBC sold out. Today’s economy is working against you too.

John John, these are all good points and worthy of discussion. It's why I wanted to go through this process, but no matter what we do something will have to give.

1. I'm more concerned with the injury updates than I am of someone in LV changing their entire draft plans because they heard Quahogs took Johnny Cueto in the 12th round. I hear what you're saying and it is possible with the time delay, but again the injury updates concern me more than any info from an earlier draft. Still, it's a valid point.

2. No ADP will be available for LV drafters. They will be busy drafting at the same time as drafts take 4.5 hours to complete. If anything, the NBC drafters will have finished draft data in front of them from each city's NFBC drafts.

3. I guess they would if they had someone in another location to call. But again, they will have the satellite ADPs in advance, too. In the end, even with the latest data, we all still have to pull the trigger on these guys when we feel it's best.

4. Advantage to LV drafters if that happens.

5. I'm not worried about that as a live broadcast of this won't happen in my lifetime.

As for the $1 million bonus, we have live results now from our football contests. We currently have 81 owners signed up for both NFFC main events, mainly because of the $1 million carrot. It's probably more winnable in football than baseball, but don't tell that to Shawn Childs or any number of our top baseball gamers who are always in the running for the top prize. If we price the NBC Sports event right, I think we'll have even more baseball owners playing both contests than we will end up with football.

Again, all good points and worth considering. But if we do two main events in the same day, then NY can't start at 1:00 and 8:00. I guess they could, but it would be an incredibly long day. Okay, worth considering at those times. I'd be interested in other feedback on the times.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:01 am

NFBC: Noon EST/11 am CST/9 am PST

NBC: 7 EST/6 CST/4 PST

NBC drafts will be done in four hours. There's suffering here for everyone if we did this. East Coasters up late, West Coasters up early. But it's doable.

We could tighten the times inbetween, but either way it's a long day. Just a thought for now.

Chest Rockwell · Post by **Chest Rockwell** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:34 am

Just wanted to drop a note and say just because I do not post on these boards anymore. Does not mean I still have not seen one post by John Zaleski that I agree with. Good points plymouth and all of them need to be considered long and hard by Greg. I trust he will. Now back to my undisclosed, secret location.

Walla Walla · Post by **Walla Walla** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:44 am

The question of an edge for the west coast is a joke. Sleepers exposed? Well how times in past years has a sleeper been called out by another league in the same city and overheard by 10 other leagues? Or other leagues taking a break glance at other league boards on the way out. Come on are you telling me the east coast or mid west has anything on Vegas???

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:48 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

NFBC: Noon EST/11 am CST/9 am PST

NBC: 7 EST/6 CST/4 PST

NBC drafts will be done in four hours. There's suffering here for everyone if we did this. East Coasters up late, West Coasters up early. But it's doable.

We could tighten the times inbetween, but either way it's a long day. Just a thought for now. If the NFBC starts at 10am and finishes in 4 hours, we'd still have 2 hours before NBC begins at 4pm in your scenario above. I know you don't make decisions by polls, but I'd bet almost everyone in Vegas would rather have an extra hour of sleep/prep saturday morning than a third hour of waiting around in between drafts.

9am start time would put a serious damper on Friday night's fun.

[ July 17, 2008, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:53 am

Originally posted by Walla Walla:

The question of an edge for the west coast is a joke. Sleepers exposed? Well how times in past years has a sleeper been called out by another league in the same city and overheard by 10 other leagues? Or other leagues taking a break glance at other league boards on the way out. Come on are you telling me the east coast or mid west has anything on Vegas???

Everyone knows drafting on the East Coast or Chicago is a real edge because the best players top to bottom are in Vegas, THAT should be a real concern.

I agree the time differential is a joke of an advantage.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:06 am

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

I agree the time differential is a joke of an advantage. please explain how this joke would be played out to NY/FL/CHI owners...

1. NY/FL drafts start

2. CHI draft starts

3. Peavy is selected in the 2nd or 3rd round in all NY/FL/CHI drafts

4. News hits the wire about Peavy missing season due to injury

5. Las Vegas begins their draft

let's hear which city is laughing the hardest

colorado · Post by **colorado** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:31 am

Greg,

I just read through the threads for the first time and came away with a suggestion that you focus on one issue at a time as the online discussion is following the same format of many meetings: Too much hot air and not much accomplished. My view is that the first issue is schedule.

Scott

[ July 17, 2008, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: colorado ]

Sheep · Post by **Sheep** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:32 am

Originally posted by Gordon Gekko:

quote:Originally posted by KJ Duke:

I agree the time differential is a joke of an advantage. please explain how this joke would be played out to NY/FL/CHI owners...

1. NY/FL drafts start

2. CHI draft starts

3. Peavy is selected in the 2nd or 3rd round in all NY/FL/CHI drafts

4. News hits the wire about Peavy missing season due to injury

5. Las Vegas begins their draft

let's hear which city is laughing the hardest [/QUOTE]The teams in NY/FL/CHI without Peavy on their roster are laughin'

I believe that every main event draft should start at the same time. Information is very time sensitive.

Walla Walla · Post by **Walla Walla** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:43 am

Gekko, So in your world we would pretty much do away with auctions which you don't do. Than we go to stright drafts which you do. NBC draft on friday and NFBC on Sat. What the hell why not? Let's do whatever Gekko thinks. Greg will after all! :rolleyes:

Navel Lint · Post by **Navel Lint** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:06 am

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

NFBC: Noon EST/11 am CST/9 am PST

NBC: 7 EST/6 CST/4 PST

NBC drafts will be done in four hours. There's suffering here for everyone if we did this. East Coasters up late, West Coasters up early. But it's doable.

We could tighten the times inbetween, but either way it's a long day. Just a thought for now. If the NFBC starts at 10am and finishes in 4 hours, we'd still have 2 hours before NBC begins at 4pm in your scenario above. I know you don't make decisions by polls, but I'd bet almost everyone in Vegas would rather have an extra hour of sleep/prep saturday morning than a third hour of waiting around in between drafts.

9am start time would put a serious damper on Friday night's fun. [/QUOTE]This is a National Event, and as such should operate under the same rules and time structure if for no other reason than the posibility of 'Breaking News'.

I don't know where I'll draft next year (Chicago or Vegas) but I would hope that we don't have different rules for Vegas because some people don't know when to go to bed. (Last statement not directed at any one person )

[ July 17, 2008, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: rucrew2 ]

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:37 am

Originally posted by Gordon Gekko:

quote:Originally posted by KJ Duke:

I agree the time differential is a joke of an advantage. please explain how this joke would be played out to NY/FL/CHI owners...

1. NY/FL drafts start

2. CHI draft starts

3. Peavy is selected in the 2nd or 3rd round in all NY/FL/CHI drafts

4. News hits the wire about Peavy missing season due to injury

5. Las Vegas begins their draft

let's hear which city is laughing the hardest [/QUOTE]One guy in each of those leagues just made a bad choice of player, which means the rest of the teams in NY/FL/CHI are stronger for it on a relative basis. Whereas in Vegas, there is not one weakened team and there are not 13 that are slightly stronger. So what?

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:39 am

Originally posted by rucrew2:

quote:Originally posted by KJ Duke:

quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

NFBC: Noon EST/11 am CST/9 am PST

NBC: 7 EST/6 CST/4 PST

NBC drafts will be done in four hours. There's suffering here for everyone if we did this. East Coasters up late, West Coasters up early. But it's doable.

We could tighten the times inbetween, but either way it's a long day. Just a thought for now. If the NFBC starts at 10am and finishes in 4 hours, we'd still have 2 hours before NBC begins at 4pm in your scenario above. I know you don't make decisions by polls, but I'd bet almost everyone in Vegas would rather have an extra hour of sleep/prep saturday morning than a third hour of waiting around in between drafts.

9am start time would put a serious damper on Friday night's fun. [/QUOTE]This is a National Event, and as such should operate under the same rules and time structure if for no other reason than the posibility of 'Breaking News'.

I don't know where I'll draft next year (Chicago or Vegas) but I would hope that we don't have different rules for Vegas because some people don't know when to go to bed. (Last statement not directed at any one person ) [/QUOTE]You do realize that I said nothing about changing relative start times for Vegas vs other cities, right? All I'm saying is keep the start time as is (10am) and make it 2 hours between drafts instead of 3 hrs.

JohnZ · Post by **JohnZ** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:40 am

Originally posted by Gordon Gekko:

#2 While ADP’s won’t be processed, the Vegas folks will receive info that “Steve Jupinka” took these 10 players to start his team. Same goes for all the other top players. If you think that won’t happen, YOU ARE FOOLING YOURSELF. A simple text message accomplishes that VERY EASILY. 1) Please explain to me how this helps you draft YOUR winning team.

2) Please explain how it helps the rest of us when we don't know your 'sleeper' was actually a computer screw up until the next day.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:00 am

What about decreasing the amount of time per pick from 1 minute to 45 seconds? Is that doable?

Plymouth · Post by **Plymouth** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:07 am

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

quote:Originally posted by Gordon Gekko:

quote:Originally posted by KJ Duke:

I agree the time differential is a joke of an advantage. please explain how this joke would be played out to NY/FL/CHI owners...

1. NY/FL drafts start

2. CHI draft starts

3. Peavy is selected in the 2nd or 3rd round in all NY/FL/CHI drafts

4. News hits the wire about Peavy missing season due to injury

5. Las Vegas begins their draft

let's hear which city is laughing the hardest [/QUOTE]One guy in each of those leagues just made a bad choice of player, which means the rest of the teams in NY/FL/CHI are stronger for it on a relative basis. Whereas in Vegas, there is not one weakened team and there are not 13 that are slightly stronger. So what? [/QUOTE]So if you were a team owner on the east coast you are saying you don't mind losing your first or second round pick possibly for the season due to an injury? I find that hard to believe.