Fine-tuning The Friday DL Rule

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:39 am

Originally posted by JohnZ:

The rule wasn't changed.

The loophole in the intended rule was fixed. You couldn't be more wrong John, I can read very well. And this is the officially stated and written NFBC rule:

"Owners are also allowed to remove a player (or players) who is officially on the DL from their starting lineup with one of their players from their reserve roster before each Friday's first game as long as the position eligibility works out. Players must officially be on Major League Baseball's DL list according to STATS and the NFBC by 12:01 a.m. on Friday for this move (or moves) to take effect for the weekend games".

This rule no longer applies, because nowhere does it state that said player could not be on the DL when the week started, which apparently will be the NEW rule.

And the problem with "fixing" this during the season, is that this "loophole" has existed and been known and discussed here for the last two seasons.

[ April 21, 2009, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

JohnZ · Post by **JohnZ** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:47 am

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

quote:Originally posted by JohnZ:

The rule wasn't changed.

The loophole in the intended rule was fixed. You couldn't be more wrong John, I can read very well. And this is the officially stated and written NFBC rule:

"Owners are also allowed to remove a player (or players) who is officially on the DL from their starting lineup with one of their players from their reserve roster before each Friday's first game as long as the position eligibility works out. Players must officially be on Major League Baseball's DL list according to STATS and the NFBC by 12:01 a.m. on Friday for this move (or moves) to take effect for the weekend games".

And it no longer applies. [/QUOTE]That's not the spirit of the rule and you know it.

As always, Greg has done the right thing.

Let's keep the contest about judging the value of players and not finding and exploiting loopholes in well intentioned ideas, many of which no one new to the game would ever imagine or think of to exploit.

We all know why the rule was put there in the first place, and as we've seen on a few occasions before and FIXED, that it's not worded exactly the way it should be. I'll leave that to Greg to fix it correctly.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:52 am

The spirit of the rule has been discussed each year, and it was never found by Greg to be requiring a change.

So why now, 3 weeks into its third season, is an urgent change called for that goes against the expressly written rule?

Most owners don't peruse the message board for rule changes. Very bad idea. This IS a rule change because what you could do last week, you won't be able to do next week.

[ April 21, 2009, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:58 am

Yes...purchasing garbage DL'd pitchers off the WW for a dollar, starting them, and pulling them for the weekends juicy pitching matchup was definitely in the spirit of the Friday DL rule. :rolleyes:

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:01 pm

They changed a hockey rule in the playoffs last year (the Sean Avery rule) for the good of the game.

I have Ervin Santana on two teams, Lackey on a team, & Carpenter on the team....so I may have benefited from the rule not being corrected.

However, the rule is being corrected....and thats the point.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:04 pm

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

Yes...purchasing garbage DL'd pitchers off the WW for a dollar, starting them, and pulling them for the weekends juicy pitching matchup was definitely in the spirit of the Friday DL rule. :rolleyes: This game is full of strategy Lance. Either the rules allow it, or they don't.

Do you think I feel bad if some guy blows too much of his money early in an auction and then has nothing left to purchase quality players in the end game?

Or blows 60% of his budget on a worthless Max Scherzer?

Strategy, beyond just player evaluation, is a big part of this game. Are you guys turning into freakin fantasy liberals ... let's help out the strategically-challenged?

[ April 21, 2009, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:15 pm

Suppose Doumit went on the DL just prior to the roster deadline for the week.

Suppose I was away from my computer and couldn't make the change.

Does this mean that now I cannot make the DL swap for Friday because he was on the DL to start the week?

Now, instead of a loophole, we will have the reverse of a loophole - changes that are WITHIN the "supposed" spirit of the rule won't be allowed. This will happen, and according to the written NFBC rules nothing says you shouldn't be able to make the switch, but the new unannounced in-season rule wouldn't allow it, I presume.

This rule change hasn't been thought through any better than the initial one that allowed for "loopholes". Have I mentioned that I DON'T LIKE IT?

[ April 21, 2009, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

Ryan C · Post by **Ryan C** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:41 pm

I can see both sides here - especially if you drafted certain guys with this in mind. But in the end I have to agree with Greg's decision.

Also- While it serves the argument well to call this a rule change, it is clearly a rule "clarification".

As someone who has both exploited and closed many fantasy "loopholes" in various leagues- it seems clear to me that Greg has every right as the "commissioner" to make any decision to preserve the integrity of this event, even if it means firming up a rule where he felt the intention was clear.

If you have benefitted from this loophole for the past two seasons, don't groan that it's gone - just accept it and move on. This loophole may have been known to longtime NFBC insiders - but it's never been openly discussed(at least I haven't seen it) by those who were using it precisly so they could keep on using it.

Anyone who exploits a fantasy loophole should understand that they are meant to be closed eventually and when they are you go out and look for the next one.

The true test is do you point it out to Greg when you find it or wait for the rest of the league to catch up? I think that's a good enough question to end this with.

[ April 21, 2009, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Ryan Carey ]

rkulaski · Post by **rkulaski** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:51 pm

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

The spirit of the rule has been discussed each year, and it was never found by Greg to be requiring a change.

So why now, 3 weeks into its third season, is an urgent change called for that goes against the expressly written rule?

There are over 1,000 NFBC lges, which is probably over 13,000 teams, and most owners don't peruse the message board for rule changes. Very bad idea. This IS a rule change because what you could do last week, you won't be able to do next week. It's never too late to fix the loophole. It doesn't matter "when" it's fixed just as long AS IT IS fixed.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:53 pm

Ryan, this has been discussed here each year and Greg has been in on the discussion in the past. If it was an unknown before the season started, I could accept that it was an unintended loophole. That is not the case. Greg knew about it, many knew about it, since 2007.

I would prefer a league-wide email detailing exactly how everyone can use this to their benefit than a stealth rule change. And you didn't address my Doumit concern above.

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:02 pm

As for Doumit...

Do you mean the roster deadline of Monday morning before the first game?

That sounds like a time management thing, if you happen to have another catcher on your bench proir to the first pitch on Monday...you switch him out...otherwise...you started a player on the DL, and that's your own fault.

Isn't it?

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:04 pm

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

As for Doumit...

Do you mean the roster deadline of Monday morning before the first game?

That sounds like a time management thing, if you happen to have another catcher on your bench proir to the first pitch on Monday...you switch him out...otherwise...you started a player on the DL, and that's your own fault.

Isn't it? Yeah it would be my fault for Monday-Thursday, but according to the NFBC's written rule I should be able to swap him out by Friday. Now I won't be able to. Is that fair? Because the NFBC rules state that I can. But the NEW, on-the-fly rule change, wouldn't allow me to.

And suppose Greg allows me to swap him out anyway? What if he went on the DL sunday instead of monday and I missed it. Can I still swap him out ? What if it was Saturday, or the Friday before and I was on vacation ???? This is why we have written rules.

[ April 21, 2009, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:18 pm

I just don't see your example happening enough in the main event to warrant not shoring up the DL rule.

Of all the times we pay attention to this game...Sunday during the blind bidding through Mondays first pitch would be the most important time.

If we could use "I was on vacation", or "I was at work" for an excuse...there would be mayhem.

Jackstraw · Post by **Jackstraw** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:32 pm

I haven't liked this rule since it was implemented. I say do away with it. I voted against it, but after whoever it was that originally pointed this loophole out I have made sure to use it to my advantage as much as possible. I think I did it a few times last year. And I know I was one of the ones that did it with Scott Baker this year. I'm an engineer, and we are trained to find these loopholes and exploit them fully. Sorry.

The Friday DL rule is a bad idea even though it is meant to have the best of intentions. An even playing field is one where everyone has the same opportunities in front of them, regardless of special circumstances. We all get to set our lineups on Monday morning. Only those with special circumstances get to set their lineup again on Friday. Also, I don't like the "We all get to make one move per week regardless of whether it is a DL move or not."

Set your lineup on Monday and then live with the decision for a week. You can change it again next Monday. And if someone gets hurt, then oh well... That is the same opportunity that is afforded to all of us.

Red Sox Nation · Post by **Red Sox Nation** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:37 pm

Here's one supporter for the DL rule. Injuries are terrible. I know it's not a perfect system but any extra help I can get through replacing an injured player is a welcome feature to me. The STATS DL designation process certainly could use some improvement going forward. The right call was made on Nady but it would of been nice if it didn't come down to a few hours before game time.

I also support closing up this loop-hole. (Baker, Max, etc)

[ April 21, 2009, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: Red Sox Nation ]

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:39 pm

KJ Duke's Doumit concern would be addressed if you limit the rule clarification to pitchers only.

Should be easy enough and still accomplishes the goal of avoiding the "roster manipulation" allowed in the original wording of the rule.

Bobby J · Post by **Bobby J** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:00 pm

it looks like Greg's mind is set on this issue, but I have to strongly disagree with changing a ruling after the season has started. It is just not good for the overall contest. It is definitely something that you address in the off season not during the season.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:01 pm

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

I just don't see your example happening enough in the main event to warrant not shoring up the DL rule.

Of all the times we pay attention to this game...Sunday during the blind bidding through Mondays first pitch would be the most important time.

If we could use "I was on vacation", or "I was at work" for an excuse...there would be mayhem. You're ignoring the point Lance. How often it applies is irrelevant.

The written rule which states I can move Doumit anytime before Friday would no longer apply. That is flat out wrong.

Re-write the rules before the season begins to fix a long-known problem, not after the season is underway.

I don't think Greg has ever changed a rule in-season before.

Raiders · Post by **Raiders** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:04 pm

As someone who has been in the NFBC from the beginning, I knew about the one loophole of the dl rule. I knew that people put in a DL player who was never going to pitch that week and replaced him with someone who had a bad matchup at the beginning of the week and a favorable one at the end of the week (the "Colorado" rule).

I didn't know about the Baker rule and had to read Greg's explanation a few times to figure this out. I don't know how that can be called strategy. It was a clear misuse of the rules and never should have been allowed and anyone who used it knew they were pulling a fast one. Rules can't cover every situation and to suggest that the rules allowed it is wrong.

I applaud Greg for getting rid of it.

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:06 pm

Spare everyone the legal threat undertone of "in season rule change not allowed". As league commissioner, one has the "for the betterment of the league" rule that trumps all others.

This redefinition of the DL rule is for the betterment of the NFBC and is long overdue.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:29 pm

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

Spare everyone the legal threat undertone of "in season rule change not allowed". As league commissioner, one has the "for the betterment of the league" rule that trumps all others.

This redefinition of the DL rule is for the betterment of the NFBC and is long overdue. First, I am not litigous and that definitely was not my tone. My tone is 100% this is a strategic change that a) I don't like rule changes in-season; b) there is no urgent need to change the rule as the NFBC has gone on just fine for several years without it, c) this rule change has not been thought through with respect to unintended consequences as I spelled out, and d) had not even been clarified as to what the new rule will be. It is simply very bad policy for all of these reasons.

Second, if its for the better of the league why didn't Greg change it two years ago when it came up then, and last season when it came up again, or this pre-season when it came up again?

And I still am waiting for an explaination on what happens if a player goes on the DL before the roster deadline, if he from now no longer can be moved for Friday.

I like to know the rules before I play. If I know the rules better than someone else because I think them thru, good for me. I don't like rule changes after the fact, and I cannot accept it was an unknown loophole against the spirit of the contest when many of us here know Greg has been aware of this for a couple of years and chose not to change it.

[ April 21, 2009, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

Scott Boras · Post by **Scott Boras** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:35 pm

KJ, After reading Greg's post my interpretation was blatantly clear that this rule clarification was specifically aimed at pitching changes for pitchers coming OFF the dl.

"Going forward, we will manually reverse any move involving a pitcher coming off the DL during the week if this happens again. And we know it will happen again as John Lackey and Ervin Santana are two good examples of guys who will pitch in the minors over the next couple of weeks and likely make a mid-week start. If you start the week with them in your starting rotation anticipating their start, then don't expect to replace them and get a second start by another pitcher. We will cancel that move out and those pitchers will remain in your active roster, as they should."

I don't think that Greg or STATS is going to reverse any DL moves you make with positional players ie your Doumit example. This clarification was made to close loopholes, NOT hinder actual injury replacements. I support this rule clarification and feel it supports the integrity of the event.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:42 pm

Originally posted by Scott Boras:

KJ, After reading Greg's post my interpretation was blatantly clear that this rule clarification was specifically aimed at pitching changes for pitchers coming OFF the dl.

"Going forward, we will manually reverse any move involving a pitcher coming off the DL during the week if this happens again. And we know it will happen again as John Lackey and Ervin Santana are two good examples of guys who will pitch in the minors over the next couple of weeks and likely make a mid-week start. If you start the week with them in your starting rotation anticipating their start, then don't expect to replace them and get a second start by another pitcher. We will cancel that move out and those pitchers will remain in your active roster, as they should."

I don't think that Greg or STATS is going to reverse any DL moves you make with positional players ie your Doumit example. This clarification was made to close loopholes, NOT hinder actual injury replacements. I support this rule clarification and feel it supports the integrity of the event. OK Boras, same can apply to pitchers. Here are two scenarios off the top of my head.

#1 Pitcher goes on the DL Sunday night or Monday morning, I miss it, and would now be prohibited from replacing said pitcher for Friday night.

#2 Pitcher is on the DL but the expectation is that he'll come off the DL during the week and pitch. He has a setback on Tuesday and thus no longer is expected to pitch this week - and now I cannot replace him for the weekend.

Those are two non-loophole situations in which I no longer can "legitimately" use the DL rule even though the NFBC official rules to begin the season explicitly state than I can. Once again, I have a major problem with that.

How many of you anti-loopholers have thought thru these issues?

[ April 21, 2009, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:45 pm

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

I cannot accept it was an unknown loophole against the spirit of the contest when many of us here know Greg has been aware of this for a couple of years and chose not to change it. In fairness to Greg, he was just alerted to the "Scott Baker" loophole in the past few days. The "Colorado" loophole was the only one publicized on these boards.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:49 pm

Originally posted by King of Queens:

quote:Originally posted by KJ Duke:

I cannot accept it was an unknown loophole against the spirit of the contest when many of us here know Greg has been aware of this for a couple of years and chose not to change it. In fairness to Greg, he was just alerted to the "Scott Baker" loophole in the past few days. The "Colorado" loophole was the only one publicized on these boards. [/QUOTE]I don't know the difference KOQ. Have a DL'd guy in your lineup to start the week then move him out after the period begins. Same damn thing.