Once Again Please, Why Not Vicory for FAAB ???

Ryan C · Post by **Ryan C** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:44 pm

The FAAB is fine the way it is- it's up to you to manage your money and bids accordingly.

Also, something not mentioned is that the high profile expert leagues that use Vickery, I believe are working with a €100 budget - not the more than ample €1000 we get here.

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:26 pm

Originally posted by Ryan Carey:

Also, something not mentioned is that the high profile expert leagues that use Vickery, I believe are working with a €100 budget - not the more than ample €1000 we get here. Though $0 bids are allowed which mitigates the lower amount.

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:31 pm

Originally posted by Ryan Carey:

I believe are working with a €100 budget - not the more than ample €1000 we get here. FAAB is now in Euros? I think we all just got a raise!

Liquidhippo · Post by **Liquidhippo** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:00 pm

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

Fun debate...but it seems to boil down to this re: a multi-league main event.

Say every league has a guy top bid $300 for Ben Sheets when he gets added into the NFBC system.

LV league #1's second place bid is $44

LV league #8's second place bid is $177

NY league #4's second place bid is $227

This, my friends is what you'd call an UNEVEN PLAYING FIELD...and thus is not good for this setup.

All leagues can have whatever second place bids the way it's set up now...and each of those owners will still lose the entire $300 they bid.

Single league setup...Vickery is fine. Only problem with that argument(anti-multi league) is that it's an uneven playing field anyway:

Take hypothetically Cliff Lee in 2008

LV league #127's 1st place bid is $1 - no runner up bids

LV league #842's 1st place bid is $425, second place bid is $424

Nothing even about that.

Thanks TTBoy for dispelling the absurd(in my humble opinion) notion that Vickrey lends itself to reckless bidding. It's the perfect cure, the antidote for the sometimes reckless and arbitrary bidding I witness on a weekly basis under the current FAAB system.

That being said, I say this not to champion the cause of Vickrey in the NFBC Main, that obviously is not going to happen. I'd just like to see it implemented in a satellite league here, or anywhere really where there is cash prize money on the line.

[ June 16, 2009, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: Liquidhippo ]

Ryan C · Post by **Ryan C** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:09 pm

Originally posted by King of Queens:

quote:Originally posted by Ryan Carey:

I believe are working with a €100 budget - not the more than ample €1000 we get here. FAAB is now in Euros? I think we all just got a raise! [/QUOTE]Damn Blackberry!!!

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:53 am

Originally posted by Liquidhippo:

quote:Originally posted by Schwartzstops:

quote:

"Worth" – That's a very misleading word. If you think A.McCutchen is worth $150 FAAB, will you only bid his worth ($150 FAAB) or will you increase that bid because other people may value McCutchen around $150? Of course you will increase your bid... Actually that's exactly the point I was making. Figuring out the player's "true" value isn't really the objective, it's figuring out what you think it will cost you to get him and whether or not you want to bid that much. But in general we agree: if you want the player, you bid the money and take your chances.

The difference between Vickrey (not Vickory, folks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickrey_auction) and "true" bidding is that Vickrey rewards reckless bidding... if you overbid and get the player, you get a rebate. There is no real incentive to figure out the "true" value, you simply throw a stack of money at the player and get back change.

In "true" bidding on the other hand, you have to carefully figure what the player is "worth" (to you, as GG noted), and bid accordingly. Get it right and you get the guy at a price you can live with, since you bid it. Get it wrong, and you either waste money (overbid) or don't get him at all (underbid). Either way there is a penalty, unlike with Vickrey. Therefore, "true" bidding is indeed a greater test of skill, and Vickrey is an exercise in recklessness. [/QUOTE]Wow, is this for real? Or is it just meant to get a rise out of the Vickrey backers? I would have to say that I don't think I've disagreed with a post(this last post) more in the history of the NFBC Message Boards. It's interesting how perceptions differ, as my experience has been completely, and emphatically, 100% opposite of almost everything in this post. Your description of Vickrey(exercise in recklessness) to me sounds like an apt description of the 100+ Blind FAAB leagues I've participated in over the years.(there's a little bit of skill involved with Blind FAAB, but usually luck wins the day)

Vickrey takes a good chunk of the luck aspect out of Blind FAAB, by rewarding those who can properly assess the value of players, the typical avg. market value(avg. FAAB bid amount in an avg. league), and the difference between the two. It also affords the prospective buyer a greater quantity of 'sure' waiver pickups, so if you're good at separating the wheat from the chaff in the free agent pool, you'll be rewarded tenfold with the Vickrey System over Blind FAAB, which gives you only 2-3 'guaranteed' pickups per year. [/QUOTE]I think it's safe to say that Greg is the flag bearer for those who think that blind bidding is not the ideal free agent system in fantasy sports.

I have no problem with his criticisms of the system, but honestly I agree with almost everything that Corey wrote. I think he is spot on when it comes to the Vickrey System.

Vickrey just isn't set up for national contests with multiple leagues. Greg's example of Cliff Lee going for $1 in one league and $425 in another league just didn't happen last year. He was purchased for a handful of dollars by owners in Weeks 2 and 3 and Vickrey wouldn't have been much of a factor in his case last year. It would play a HUGE role in the likes of Max Scherzer of 2008 or many of the rookie callups this year. And trust me, league influence would play a greater role in who becomes the overall champion under Vickrey than it currently does now.

Greg, I understand your feelings. Duly noted and we'll see about a satellite league next year. But I have to state that Corey's post did reflect much of my feelings on this matter. Sorry.

Liquidhippo · Post by **Liquidhippo** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:08 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

quote:Originally posted by Liquidhippo:

quote:Originally posted by Schwartzstops:

quote:

"Worth" – That's a very misleading word. If you think A.McCutchen is worth $150 FAAB, will you only bid his worth ($150 FAAB) or will you increase that bid because other people may value McCutchen around $150? Of course you will increase your bid... Actually that's exactly the point I was making. Figuring out the player's "true" value isn't really the objective, it's figuring out what you think it will cost you to get him and whether or not you want to bid that much. But in general we agree: if you want the player, you bid the money and take your chances.

The difference between Vickrey (not Vickory, folks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickrey_auction) and "true" bidding is that Vickrey rewards reckless bidding... if you overbid and get the player, you get a rebate. There is no real incentive to figure out the "true" value, you simply throw a stack of money at the player and get back change.

In "true" bidding on the other hand, you have to carefully figure what the player is "worth" (to you, as GG noted), and bid accordingly. Get it right and you get the guy at a price you can live with, since you bid it. Get it wrong, and you either waste money (overbid) or don't get him at all (underbid). Either way there is a penalty, unlike with Vickrey. Therefore, "true" bidding is indeed a greater test of skill, and Vickrey is an exercise in recklessness. [/QUOTE]Wow, is this for real? Or is it just meant to get a rise out of the Vickrey backers? I would have to say that I don't think I've disagreed with a post(this last post) more in the history of the NFBC Message Boards. It's interesting how perceptions differ, as my experience has been completely, and emphatically, 100% opposite of almost everything in this post. Your description of Vickrey(exercise in recklessness) to me sounds like an apt description of the 100+ Blind FAAB leagues I've participated in over the years.(there's a little bit of skill involved with Blind FAAB, but usually luck wins the day)

Vickrey takes a good chunk of the luck aspect out of Blind FAAB, by rewarding those who can properly assess the value of players, the typical avg. market value(avg. FAAB bid amount in an avg. league), and the difference between the two. It also affords the prospective buyer a greater quantity of 'sure' waiver pickups, so if you're good at separating the wheat from the chaff in the free agent pool, you'll be rewarded tenfold with the Vickrey System over Blind FAAB, which gives you only 2-3 'guaranteed' pickups per year. [/QUOTE]I think it's safe to say that Greg is the flag bearer for those who think that blind bidding is not the ideal free agent system in fantasy sports.

I have no problem with his criticisms of the system, but honestly I agree with almost everything that Corey wrote. I think he is spot on when it comes to the Vickrey System.

Vickrey just isn't set up for national contests with multiple leagues. Greg's example of Cliff Lee going for $1 in one league and $425 in another league just didn't happen last year. He was purchased for a handful of dollars by owners in Weeks 2 and 3 and Vickrey wouldn't have been much of a factor in his case last year. It would play a HUGE role in the likes of Max Scherzer of 2008 or many of the rookie callups this year. And trust me, league influence would play a greater role in who becomes the overall champion under Vickrey than it currently does now.

Greg, I understand your feelings. Duly noted and we'll see about a satellite league next year. But I have to state that Corey's post did reflect much of my feelings on this matter. Sorry. [/QUOTE]I probably do get a little too fired up about Blind FAAB when I post. Sorry. Also, I didn't suggest that the Cliff Lee example happened last year, hence referring to it as hypothetical(and using triple digit league #'s). But I do know that similar types of 'waiver atrocities'

have happened to me more times than I can count(I got Cliff Lee for a buck last year btw, that was luck, not skill, never should have been able to land him for that amount). Not to mention that there are HUGE disparities most every week in FAAB from league to league(some players go for comparable prices, but still plenty do not), so the playing field is NOT even across the multileague FAAB landscape. On a given week you can get a player for single digits in one league, another league you might have to pay 50-100 times as much. I play in over 2 dozen Blind FAAB Leagues each and every year, and I've had seasons in which probably 20-22 out of the 26 FAAB weeks I've had quite a few bids on numerous players that played out a similar scenario. Having the 2nd highest(or 3rd or 4th highest) bid out of ALL NFBC leagues for a particular player, and yet losing out because I'm in that one league that had someone bid just enough to outbid me, and I lose out by a buck or two. Sometimes notwithstanding the fact that I outbid a player in another league by triple digits for that same player, he gets him and I do not. It's just the nature of the beast and there's nothing we can do about it, but it is a counterpoint to the suggestion by one poster that the FAAB landscape, as it is, is an even playing field.

So far this year, overall I've had a good deal of success winning Blind FAAB bids, but it's only because of luck, not skill.

I'll stay tuned on the possibility of a Vickrey Sat. next year. Thanks for considering.

[ June 17, 2009, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: Liquidhippo ]

JohnZ · Post by **JohnZ** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:24 am

This is not luck. It's 100% skill.

Waiver Draft on 05/03

Team Player Bid Runner-Up

Blind FAAB is 97.4% Luck Huston Street (CL) 357 345

Liquidhippo · Post by **Liquidhippo** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:37 am

Originally posted by JohnZ:

This is not luck. It's 100% skill.

Waiver Draft on 05/03

Team Player Bid Runner-Up

Blind FAAB is 97.4% Luck Huston Street (CL) 357 345 It's 100% skill 2.6% of the time!

JohnZ · Post by **JohnZ** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:54 am

Originally posted by Liquidhippo:

quote:Originally posted by JohnZ:

This is not luck. It's 100% skill.

Waiver Draft on 05/03

Team Player Bid Runner-Up

Blind FAAB is 97.4% Luck Huston Street (CL) 357 345 It's 100% skill 2.6% of the time!

[/QUOTE]0.1% to 2.6% is an awesome 2600% improvement in just a few short weeks

At that rate, you'll be at the 67.6% rate the rest of us are at in no time.

eddiejag · Post by **eddiejag** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:16 pm

Picking up Scott Richmond for a dollar last sunday and playing him and getting those 11 k's and a win is skill.

Gordon Gekko II · Post by **Gordon Gekko II** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:37 pm

Originally posted by eddiejag:

Picking up Scott Richmond for a dollar last sunday and playing him and getting those 11 k's and a win is skill. Picking up Scott Richmond for a dollar = LUCK

playing him = SKILL OR LUNACY (TAKE YOUR PICK)

getting those 11 k's = LUCK

and a win = LUCK

sorry eddie

NorCalAtlFan · Post by **NorCalAtlFan** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:47 pm

eddie thought outside the box, that's a skill, no?

Gordon Gekko II · Post by **Gordon Gekko II** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:58 pm

Originally posted by NorCalAtlFan:

eddie thought outside the box, that's a skill, no? playing him = SKILL OR LUNACY (TAKE YOUR PICK)

Gordon Gekko II · Post by **Gordon Gekko II** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:59 pm

Originally posted by NorCalAtlFan:

eddie thought outside the box, that's a skill, no? playing him = SKILL OR LUNACY (TAKE YOUR PICK)

Gordon Gekko II · Post by **Gordon Gekko II** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:00 pm

Originally posted by NorCalAtlFan:

eddie thought outside the box, that's a skill, no? playing him = SKILL OR LUNACY (TAKE YOUR PICK)

Gordon Gekko II · Post by **Gordon Gekko II** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:04 pm

damn internet!

eddiejag · Post by **eddiejag** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:31 pm

Actually it was Greg Morgan who picked him up in our main event.I say it's a skill pick knowing there is upside.I mean what is skill is everything luck.