Slo- Drafts and New Rules

Gekko · Post by **Gekko** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:33 pm

Originally posted by Navel Lint:

First, I didn’t write the poll, I’m just referencing it.

Second, the topic of the DL rule had been talked about for days thru several threads before Greg posted the survey. I don’t really want to go back and read all the pages, but if my memory is correct ( and if it’s not you’ll let me know

)he chose those four possible answers because they were the most viable and seemed to be the ones that most people wanted. Lint - Your memory IS faulty in regards to this.

beginning on Page 2 of the thread YOU reference, people start saying that they'd prefer an option that greg didn't list. and that option...

Friday moves for hitter and DL moves for pitchers.

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:11 pm

Nobody cares to extrapolate on the specific reasons WHY they don't enjoy daily moves leagues.

Could it be due to whatever they say sounding very much the same as what those who don't care to go from once weekly to twice weekly would say?

I think so.

26 or so weeks seems a fair amount of times to alter your roster.

Can't wait to hear the whining when players actually STILL get hurt on Mondays after this rule takes effect...and they STILL miss Tue, Wed and Thu at bats. Somehow I don't think all will be peachy.

The DL rule came about from whining, has transformed into twice weekly from whining...and yet I'm not to consider the slippery slope of twice weekly not being good enough for the whiners?

THAT is ludicrous.

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:18 pm

Originally posted by Gekko and The King:

quote:Originally posted by Sebadiah23:

When your player hits a homerun while mine strikes out, I could use the same logic and say it isn't fair. But I don't, because I can't control outcomes. I can only slant the likehood of success in my favor.

Fantasy games are fair. Everyone has an equal chance to win at the beginning. If you want to completely suck chance out the game, it's not a game anymore. Run 10 gazillion trials with a computer programmed to draft like you, bid like you, and make lineup decisions like you, and see if you come out on top. Have fun with that. again, why not go the other way and set lineups once a month? [/QUOTE]Show me a fantasy baseball league that has been popular with monthly roster setting.

Just a dumb comment.

The most popular fantasy setup BY FAR is weekly.

Look it up.

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:24 pm

To me this is almost a comment on modern society.

Many no longer can accept bumps and bruises as part of life.

It's all ME, ME, ME...what can I GET.

Anyone with a brain can see that going away from weekly roster moves will "change the game" enormously...despite all the chatter that it will not. It will make blind bidding so much more complex, and the gap will become so much harder to make up for the less hard core players with less time to spare.

If you want to fine tune the game for the guys with more time and effort...and away from the many players who love fantasy baseball but are not willing or able to get as deeply into it as the level of the guys who spend many hours per day on it...so be it.

Tough call IMO. I can see both sides...but when you cut out the casual players...the game dies.

See poker.

rkulaski · Post by **rkulaski** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:34 pm

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

Can't wait to hear the whining when players actually STILL get hurt on Mondays after this rule takes effect...and they STILL miss Tue, Wed and Thu at bats. Somehow I don't think all will be peachy.

There's always one problem child. jeesh. This is such a black and white issue.

I will speak for the masses. Most everyone who plays in the main event or even in satellite leagues checks box scores every night to follow their players. Most all of us are aware if one of our hitters has tweaked a hammy and will miss the weekend. It takes 1 MINUTE to bench him and replace him with a hitter from the bench. How in the world does this make the main event or a satellite worse?? Common sense rules here - it only makes an already great game (nfbc main or satellite) better.

CC's Desperados · Post by **CC's Desperados** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:56 pm

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

Nobody cares to extrapolate on the specific reasons WHY they don't enjoy daily moves leagues.

Could it be due to whatever they say sounding very much the same as what those who don't care to go from once weekly to twice weekly would say?

I think so.

26 or so weeks seems a fair amount of times to alter your roster.

Can't wait to hear the whining when players actually STILL get hurt on Mondays after this rule takes effect...and they STILL miss Tue, Wed and Thu at bats. Somehow I don't think all will be peachy.

The DL rule came about from whining, has transformed into twice weekly from whining...and yet I'm not to consider the slippery slope of twice weekly not being good enough for the whiners?

THAT is ludicrous. Daily moves are pretty mindless on the pitching side. You set your roster everyday for the week and all your starters get their starts if you chose to play them.

On the hitting side, you might need to be a slave to the computer if you want to maximize at bats. If a regular player gets the night off, you have the ability to switch your roster if you happen to be near a computer and see the starting lineups. Most of these leagues have shorter rosters and smaller benches and you can't get players off the wire every night. If you want to be a slave to the computer, you could have an edge in the counting stats on offense.

I think more players want control over their roster with twice a week moves to over come injuries and help avoid a late scratch of a player early in the week. The bottom line is: fantasy players want to have a full roster each week. Weekend relief would help owners maintain a full roster longer and avoid taking multiple games of zeros during the year.

It changes the game, but I think in a good way. Owners still have the same bench size so which is more important hitting depth or a deeper staff (I'm in favor of bi-weekly moves for pitchers and batters).

Injuries are the biggest reason why teams fail. A team with injuries during the week loses at bats and pitching stats. They then lose roster flexibility by carrying hurt players.

[ September 24, 2009, 11:22 PM: Message edited by: CC's Desperados ]

CC's Desperados · Post by **CC's Desperados** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:29 pm

Check out how many spammer are in the player list viewing the boards! Unbelievable!

Quahogs · Post by **Quahogs** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:39 am

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

To me this is almost a comment on modern society.

Many no longer can accept bumps and bruises as part of life.

It's all ME, ME, ME...what can I GET.

Anyone with a brain can see that going away from weekly roster moves will "change the game" enormously...despite all the chatter that it will not. It will make blind bidding so much more complex, and the gap will become so much harder to make up for the less hard core players with less time to spare.

Holy grap! A societal ills bramble. Lance the sky is not falling with a change like this. It's hardly a blip on the radar effort wise yet brings so much to the table. Most teams carry a DL guy, a minor league bumpkin, 3 pitchers.. that leaves 2 hitters. You set your lineup like usual monday and swap out a hitter if he won't play the weekend. What am I missing. Why is this the root all evil?

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:02 am

I think people know me well enough to know that the NFBC will NOT be going to daily moves anytime soon. Case closed there. Heck, we don't even have a single satellite league with daily moves.

The discussion here is how to improve the skill vs. luck factor in the NFBC. Plain and simple. I felt there was too much luck factor in the early years of the NFBC when it came to early week injuries and thus instituted a hard and fast Friday DL rule. It has helped a bit for those owners whose players go on the DL unexpectedly on Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday. But it can be maddening when your guy officially goes on the DL after the Thursday midnight deadline I imposed. And for those who don't know, that deadline was needed or it forced all owners to sit in front of their computer all day Friday waiting for the red DL button to magically appear before Friday's first pitch. That was insane.

So we have a concept that I initiated that helped with injuries but hurt some teams who didn't get credit for injuries. And I think it has put MORE time into managing your teams because folks keep waiting for the DL designation to appear. And of course in September when teams don't put anyone on the DL, it's VERY unfair.

Agreed, that when I did the survey in May I didn't include the one option that now makes the most sense: Allowing any hitter changes on Friday but not pitcher changes unless they are officially on the DL by Thursday at midnight. I do not want streaming pitchers in the NFBC and thus it will not be open book on pitchers.

This last concept will be explored with our stat service at season's end and then we'll see if technically this can be done. If it can, we'll discuss the merits and non-merits of this new change to the Friday DL rule. Simple enough.

Does this now make sense?

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:06 am

Originally posted by CC's Desperados:

Check out how many spammer are in the player list viewing the boards! Unbelievable! Just so you know, we get 70+ spammers per night on the NFBC boards and fortunately we've put a blocker up where they need approval to post on the boards. Tom has to monitor this each day and individually delete each one of these. It's a pain in the *** and they never stop. Same with the NFFC. So even though all of those guests are suddenly showing up as viewers, none of them see the light of day on our boards, thankfully. We'll try to work with Fanball.com going forward to even prevent them from being visible on our home page.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:12 am

I will add that Lance is right that it's important to make sure the rules of any game of this level are equally fair for casual players as well as the most intense players. If we put in too many intricate rules we lose the masses.

Trust me, I've thought long and hard about that everytime I institute KDS or 3RR in football and I realize that I can become too niche for the masses. But the Friday DL rule as it is now actually is more confusing than if I just allowed Friday hitter moves for any player and our continued strict DL rule on pitchers.

If we allowed hitter changes each Friday it would 1) force folks to really concentrate on keeping the best 7-man reserve roster possible, many times with players who qualify at multiple positions; and 2) really avoid any confusion on why a guy who is listed on every web site as being DL'd can't be DL'd in the NFBC. Plus I think this change would take LESS time for NFBC owners than more time because it's a simple change of Active or Reserve whether than finding out when he was DL'd, etc.

I just don't know if this can be done on the programming side, but I'll find out at season's end. For now, we're just trying to get through 2009 and finalize plans for 2010. We're working on those now.

CC's Desperados · Post by **CC's Desperados** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:13 am

The rumor on the street is that you are going to squash the minor league rule. I hope that isn't the case. In the past, you opened the boards for discussion on this stuff. I'd hate to see a power play and just change the rule because someone likes the other side of the fence better.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:29 am

Originally posted by CC's Desperados:

The rumor on the street is that you are going to squash the minor league rule. I hope that isn't the case. In the past, you opened the boards for discussion on this stuff. I'd hate to see a power play and just change the rule because someone likes the other side of the fence better. Shame on you for spreading rumors on our message boards, Shawn.

You heard some boys talking in Las Vegas at the football drafts and now you're posting that here???? Tsk-tsk.

I think everyone knows why I have the rule as it currently is. I believe each individual league in the main event is different and protecting non-drafted minor-leaguers makes it fair for everyone in that league to pick up that hot star when he's called up to the majors. Some folks believe it would be fairer to have access to pick up ANYONE at any time during the NFBC season. I'm not sure I agree with that and creating a list of ALL minor-leaguers could bog down the FAAB system. But we'll see.

It will be one of the discussions on rules changes this off-season and everyone is free to join that debate. We'll finalize this area of concern soon enough.

Gekko · Post by **Gekko** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:50 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

Some folks believe it would be fairer to have access to pick up ANYONE at any time during the NFBC season. sign me up for this one! assuming STATS could do it

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:50 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

I will add that Lance is right that it's important to make sure the rules of any game of this level are equally fair for casual players as well as the most intense players. If we put in too many intricate rules we lose the masses.

Trust me, I've thought long and hard about that everytime I institute KDS or 3RR in football and I realize that I can become too niche for the masses. But the Friday DL rule as it is now actually is more confusing than if I just allowed Friday hitter moves for any player and our continued strict DL rule on pitchers.

If we allowed hitter changes each Friday it would 1) force folks to really concentrate on keeping the best 7-man reserve roster possible, many times with players who qualify at multiple positions; and 2) really avoid any confusion on why a guy who is listed on every web site as being DL'd can't be DL'd in the NFBC. Plus I think this change would take LESS time for NFBC owners than more time because it's a simple change of Active or Reserve whether than finding out when he was DL'd, etc.

I just don't know if this can be done on the programming side, but I'll find out at season's end. For now, we're just trying to get through 2009 and finalize plans for 2010. We're working on those now. Programming would seem easy Greg.

Since the system already allows Friday moves for DL'd players, all that needs to be done is apply an invisible DL tag to every hitter.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:53 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

creating a list of ALL minor-leaguers could bog down the FAAB system. But we'll see.

Why not just have "Minor Leaguers" as an option in the pull-down menu, as if it were another position, so it doesn't bog down the FAAB search?

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:27 am

Originally posted by Gekko and The King:

quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

Some folks believe it would be fairer to have access to pick up ANYONE at any time during the NFBC season. sign me up for this one! assuming STATS could do it [/QUOTE]Was Shawn referring to you being on the other side of the fence or someone in NFBC management??

[ September 25, 2009, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: Greg Ambrosius ]

eddiejag · Post by **eddiejag** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:34 am

The one rule change that i think will evenually happen is the twice a week.It's time guys twice a week isnt going to take away any bodies life..Nothing worse than the guy who isnt going to play but just because the team wont dl him for a million different reasons you have to take a ZERO.

TWICE A WEEK MOVES IS THE FUTURE.

Gekko · Post by **Gekko** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:45 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

quote:Originally posted by Gekko and The King:

quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

Some folks believe it would be fairer to have access to pick up ANYONE at any time during the NFBC season. sign me up for this one! assuming STATS could do it [/QUOTE]Was Shawn referring to you being on the other side of the fence or someone in NFBC management??

[/QUOTE]i didn't see Shawn in Vegas.

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:59 am

Originally posted by Gekko and The King:

quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

quote:Originally posted by Gekko and The King:

quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

Some folks believe it would be fairer to have access to pick up ANYONE at any time during the NFBC season. sign me up for this one! assuming STATS could do it [/QUOTE]Was Shawn referring to you being on the other side of the fence or someone in NFBC management??

[/QUOTE]i didn't see Shawn in Vegas. [/QUOTE]Why not simplify it like Gekko I believe mentioned before...

ANY AND ALL minor league players drafted in the main event become eligable to ALL main event leagues.

This way the playing field is still level, and you don't need to program ALL POSSIBLE minor league players.

CC's Desperados · Post by **CC's Desperados** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:55 am

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

quote:Originally posted by Gekko and The King:

quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

quote:Originally posted by Gekko and The King:

quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

Some folks believe it would be fairer to have access to pick up ANYONE at any time during the NFBC season. sign me up for this one! assuming STATS could do it [/QUOTE]Was Shawn referring to you being on the other side of the fence or someone in NFBC management??

[/QUOTE]i didn't see Shawn in Vegas. [/QUOTE]Why not simplify it like Gekko I believe mentioned before...

ANY AND ALL minor league players drafted in the main event become eligable to ALL main event leagues.

This way the playing field is still level, and you don't need to program ALL POSSIBLE minor league players. [/QUOTE]Lance....you are all over the board on this thread. I'm not sure you even understand what is best for you as a player. How does an open pool for minor players help you as a player? How many times last year did you look at any minor leaguers that were already in your league's player pool?

An open minor league player pool helps the wise guys more. It gives them access to more talent at a discount. It devalues free agent dollars. After playing the 12 team online event, you see how easy it is to acquire players you want. A $1000 in that game is a lot of buying power.

Most people think of what is better for them as a player....not the game. A closed pool brings players of value at different times of the year. It creates a time when a few players hit the market where every team would like to own the new minor leaguer. Because the player has value on the open market, it spreads out the top minor league talent. One team can't reach into the minors a couple of weeks ahead and land many top minor league players for short money.

A experienced player with foresight will have more buying power. He also will avoid some big swings and misses. Do you really want to give a top player more bullets in their gun? I think you would rather take out their kneees if they make a huge free bid and hurt their abilty to buy more players.

For FAAB to work best, the money has to mean something. You don't want to enter September with everyone having a pocket full of cash. Those who have spent their money early should be at the end of the food chain when it comes to free agent players late in the year.

Sebadiah23 · Post by **Sebadiah23** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:42 am

Player values will shift, not as much as if you added strikeouts as a category or something drastic, but like Greg said, multi-position players like Ronnie Belliard and Willie Harris get vastly inflated value, plus players in hitter-heavy ballparks get greater value because you can stream them in mixed ballpark weeks. Injury-prone players, as I mentioned before, have greater value because there is less risk if they get hurt. A seemingly small change can have a great affect on player ratings and draft strategy.

I'm just saying, know what you're getting into. Do you really want these effects?

CC's Desperados · Post by **CC's Desperados** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:48 am

Originally posted by Sebadiah23:

Player values will shift, not as much as if you added strikeouts as a category or something drastic, but like Greg said, multi-position players like Ronnie Belliard and Willie Harris get vastly inflated value, plus players in hitter-heavy ballparks get greater value because you can stream them in mixed ballpark weeks. Injury-prone players, as I mentioned before, have greater value because there is less risk if they get hurt. A seemingly small change can have a great affect on player ratings and draft strategy.

I'm just saying, know what you're getting into. Do you really want these effects? I think we don't think alike on this subject at all. I would never draft Chipper Jones just to carry another third baseman to cover him in case of injury. I also don't think it make an sense to carry a part time player to fill in case of injury. Maybe you wouldn't mind having a player like Zobrist in you lineup so you could move him around if you had a problem.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:12 am

Agree with Shawn, I don't think it changes player values.

Some may value an injury-prone player more because they can swap them out mid-week, but others may value them less because they'd rather have reliable, healthy players that they can swap in for a good half-week matchup.

Bench decisions will be more strategic, but there are many different angles such that I think they end up cancelling each other out in terms of player values. Multi-position players get a slight bump, but it will be very marginal as most owners would still take the player they like better over one that qualifies at two positions.

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:17 am

I understand that every ME league has the same player pool to draft from(unlimited), and that there is a bit of strategy in drafting and dropping rookies, as well as not drafting them.

It just seems weird to me that post-draft league player pools would vary. Something doesn't sit right when one league has a drafter pick up a few rookies at the end of his draft (like I have done in the past) due to his cheatsheet not being deep enough. This same player drops these clowns who won't see the field for 4 months.

Now...the other players in that league can "get a bargain" by picking up said players a few weeks before he gets the call up, where 90% of the other leagues cannot get that deal.

Doesn't seem fair to me for a main event to have such rules.

A main events player pool should be consistent from league to league IMO.

I also don't see where a ruling such as this that you claim would help the sharks out...and you, the alpha male great white himself, do not like the rule???

There will ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS be more up and coming rookies that blossum in the minors or rebound and come up that would have to be bid on like this year (at the time of call up), who were not drafted in any league.

I'm not saying have free reign on all possible rookies...just those selected as part of your 30 drafted rounds in the main event.

It seems wrong that some leagues get to have different player pools to pick up when looking over free agents, and other leagues have those same players locked.