Innings Pitched Argument
Innings Pitched Argument
Since Greg requested that we move the discussion to a separate thread.
Neal Moses
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Navel Lint
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Innings Pitched Argument
Innings pitched minimums?
Leagues that are part of a larger overall championship, Yes.
Single league events, No.
Leagues that are part of a larger overall championship, Yes.
Single league events, No.
Russel -Navel Lint
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Innings Pitched Argument
Originally posted by CC's Desperados:
quote:Originally posted by Asumijet:
quote:Originally posted by Ryan Carey:
quote:Originally posted by KJ Duke:
quote:Originally posted by CC's Desperados:
quote:Originally posted by Sebadiah23:
Spreading out the winnings is just going to invite more trick-players like Jim Stanard who use game compromising short-cuts like taking all relievers to try to finish in the money. It's time we let that die like the dinosaurs.
Just my opinion.
-Craig 800 innings minimun [/QUOTE]Good idea for all NFBC lges, 700 = 1 or 1.5 starters, too low. [/QUOTE]I know this is the Diamond league thread - but I'd like to pick this up and give my vote to please, please, please have some Sat leagues that have an innings limit- every sat league I played in had at least one (some two) leagues that went all reliever.
I hate the strategy, hate playing against them and hate that it dilutes the draft prep aspect of playing in these leagues. Many owners buy multiple leagues to prepare for draft day and getting stuck with 2 or 3 all reliever teams basically ruins every aspect of playing in it FOR ME.
I as a consumer would like the choice to avoid them next year if possible. If I see certain owner names in leagues (guys who are known to employ these strategies successfully) I admit I steer clear if possible. But the strategy does work - so after you lose to these guys - you start to think - hey I'll try it - it beats losing. I would rather be able to play in a league that at least makes it more difficult to employ trick strategies. [/QUOTE]Having stuck it to Ryan the one time I used such a strategy, I can see the point. However, for what you are hoping to accomplish, Main Event prep and practice, limiting innings won't necessarily do the trick. Teams can still punt saves, sbs or avg. And you are still left with an unrealistic draft picture for the Main Event.
Strategy is what makes this fun for many; we shouldn't limit the strategies but learn to beat the "JIMmying pitchers".
And for a $10,000 entry fee, I should be able to draft all umpires and batboys if I think that is what is going to bring home the $$$.
[/QUOTE]I take it you planned on trying this in this type of league. It isn't a strategies...it's a loop hole. It's one that should have been closed long ago. If someone decides to go all starters, they are taking on risk. Reliever only removes risk and allows someone not to compete is the most difficult part of the game. I believe starting pitching a huge part of these games and I don't see the point of rewarding anyone who tries to beat the game.
It's pretty simple give up three options and players will sign up for the high end game they prefer. [/QUOTE]Shawn- I respectfully have to disagree here.
1) Is it a plan that I would try in a $10,000 league? Doubt it, but any player should have the opportunity to do so. In fact, I might want others to try it or punting another category. It is a game and thus game theory should be allowed.
2) "It is a loop-hole." Did not realize that punting one or two categories was a "loop-hole". Should we also add that you must have "x" number of save attempts, stolen base attempts or at-bats? It is a very slippery slope.
3) If someone goes all starters, they are locking in 30 points for wins and ks and balancing ERA and WHIP. They are decreasing risk as well. If someone goes all RPs, they are locking 45 points in ERA, WHIP and Saves, with no upward movement possible in Wins and Ks. If you assume that an all SP strategy is going to pluck some strong pitchers early, the results are about the same, with more upside to the all SP strategy, but little downside relative to the RP strategy.
4) While the RP strategy decreases ERA/WHIP risk (you still need to manage 1.5 SPs to hit 700 innings), it adds a ton of risk to the hitting categories. You have to hit 65 points to have a shot at winning. Your are not decreasing risk as much as you are moving it around. You also lose the rewards by punting. I would argue that punting Wins/Ks is just as risky.
All that said, I have only punted wins/ks once in 20 years. It was successful, but I didn't enjoy the season nearly as much. And while I am not likely to do it again, I do think it is a part of the game and not a loop hole. The option should be there for a number of reasons. And I will say that 800 innings sounds about the right number. You would still have to manage some SPs in that scenerio.
[ October 12, 2009, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: Asumijet ]
quote:Originally posted by Asumijet:
quote:Originally posted by Ryan Carey:
quote:Originally posted by KJ Duke:
quote:Originally posted by CC's Desperados:
quote:Originally posted by Sebadiah23:
Spreading out the winnings is just going to invite more trick-players like Jim Stanard who use game compromising short-cuts like taking all relievers to try to finish in the money. It's time we let that die like the dinosaurs.
Just my opinion.
-Craig 800 innings minimun [/QUOTE]Good idea for all NFBC lges, 700 = 1 or 1.5 starters, too low. [/QUOTE]I know this is the Diamond league thread - but I'd like to pick this up and give my vote to please, please, please have some Sat leagues that have an innings limit- every sat league I played in had at least one (some two) leagues that went all reliever.
I hate the strategy, hate playing against them and hate that it dilutes the draft prep aspect of playing in these leagues. Many owners buy multiple leagues to prepare for draft day and getting stuck with 2 or 3 all reliever teams basically ruins every aspect of playing in it FOR ME.
I as a consumer would like the choice to avoid them next year if possible. If I see certain owner names in leagues (guys who are known to employ these strategies successfully) I admit I steer clear if possible. But the strategy does work - so after you lose to these guys - you start to think - hey I'll try it - it beats losing. I would rather be able to play in a league that at least makes it more difficult to employ trick strategies. [/QUOTE]Having stuck it to Ryan the one time I used such a strategy, I can see the point. However, for what you are hoping to accomplish, Main Event prep and practice, limiting innings won't necessarily do the trick. Teams can still punt saves, sbs or avg. And you are still left with an unrealistic draft picture for the Main Event.
Strategy is what makes this fun for many; we shouldn't limit the strategies but learn to beat the "JIMmying pitchers".
And for a $10,000 entry fee, I should be able to draft all umpires and batboys if I think that is what is going to bring home the $$$.
[/QUOTE]I take it you planned on trying this in this type of league. It isn't a strategies...it's a loop hole. It's one that should have been closed long ago. If someone decides to go all starters, they are taking on risk. Reliever only removes risk and allows someone not to compete is the most difficult part of the game. I believe starting pitching a huge part of these games and I don't see the point of rewarding anyone who tries to beat the game.It's pretty simple give up three options and players will sign up for the high end game they prefer. [/QUOTE]Shawn- I respectfully have to disagree here.
1) Is it a plan that I would try in a $10,000 league? Doubt it, but any player should have the opportunity to do so. In fact, I might want others to try it or punting another category. It is a game and thus game theory should be allowed.
2) "It is a loop-hole." Did not realize that punting one or two categories was a "loop-hole". Should we also add that you must have "x" number of save attempts, stolen base attempts or at-bats? It is a very slippery slope.
3) If someone goes all starters, they are locking in 30 points for wins and ks and balancing ERA and WHIP. They are decreasing risk as well. If someone goes all RPs, they are locking 45 points in ERA, WHIP and Saves, with no upward movement possible in Wins and Ks. If you assume that an all SP strategy is going to pluck some strong pitchers early, the results are about the same, with more upside to the all SP strategy, but little downside relative to the RP strategy.
4) While the RP strategy decreases ERA/WHIP risk (you still need to manage 1.5 SPs to hit 700 innings), it adds a ton of risk to the hitting categories. You have to hit 65 points to have a shot at winning. Your are not decreasing risk as much as you are moving it around. You also lose the rewards by punting. I would argue that punting Wins/Ks is just as risky.
All that said, I have only punted wins/ks once in 20 years. It was successful, but I didn't enjoy the season nearly as much. And while I am not likely to do it again, I do think it is a part of the game and not a loop hole. The option should be there for a number of reasons. And I will say that 800 innings sounds about the right number. You would still have to manage some SPs in that scenerio.
[ October 12, 2009, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: Asumijet ]
Neal Moses
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Captain Hook
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Innings Pitched Argument
Can someone tell me what the point of this thread is? The NFBC already has a minimum innings pitched.
Innings Pitched Argument
Originally posted by Captain Hook:
Can someone tell me what the point of this thread is? The NFBC already has a minimum innings pitched. It started as part of the Diamond League discussion. Should the innings be increased to say 800, 900 or 1250?
Can someone tell me what the point of this thread is? The NFBC already has a minimum innings pitched. It started as part of the Diamond League discussion. Should the innings be increased to say 800, 900 or 1250?
Neal Moses
Innings Pitched Argument
Originally posted by Captain Hook:
Can someone tell me what the point of this thread is? The NFBC already has a minimum innings pitched. Point is many think it's too low.
Can someone tell me what the point of this thread is? The NFBC already has a minimum innings pitched. Point is many think it's too low.
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CC's Desperados
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Innings Pitched Argument
Originally posted by Asumijet:
2) "It is a loop-hole." Did not realize that punting one or two categories was a "loop-hole". Should we also add that you must have "x" number of save attempts, stolen base attempts or at-bats? It is a very slippery slope.
In case you miss it, in 2005 they were crawling out of the woodwork when there wasn't an inning requeirement. In 2006, they raised it to 400. It was still a vaible option. In 2007, 600 innings...it was getting tougher. Then 700 innings where it stands now.
The loop hole is the ability to win two categories without taking on risk. Risk being starting pitching.
The relief angle has a lot more success in action leagues when a player can buy the key pieces.
2) "It is a loop-hole." Did not realize that punting one or two categories was a "loop-hole". Should we also add that you must have "x" number of save attempts, stolen base attempts or at-bats? It is a very slippery slope.
In case you miss it, in 2005 they were crawling out of the woodwork when there wasn't an inning requeirement. In 2006, they raised it to 400. It was still a vaible option. In 2007, 600 innings...it was getting tougher. Then 700 innings where it stands now.
The loop hole is the ability to win two categories without taking on risk. Risk being starting pitching.
The relief angle has a lot more success in action leagues when a player can buy the key pieces.
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CC's Desperados
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Innings Pitched Argument
Originally posted by Asumijet:
3) If someone goes all starters, they are locking in 30 points for wins and ks and balancing ERA and WHIP. They are decreasing risk as well. If someone goes all RPs, they are locking 45 points in ERA, WHIP and Saves, with no upward movement possible in Wins and Ks. If you assume that an all SP strategy is going to pluck some strong pitchers early, the results are about the same, with more upside to the all SP strategy, but little downside relative to the RP strategy.
If someone goes all starters, they have to either buy elite pitching or commit draft spots to pitching. An all starting pitching angle has the opportunity to get more points, but there is no guarentee whip or era will be near the top of the standings. If you cheat starting pitching, you lose the game.
In a auction, a team can spend $230+ on hitting and spend $30 on pitching. The $30 with the reliever angle might secure a possible 47 points.
If a team wants to but an elite pitching staff, it will cost much more. Therefore hurting that players chances of buying a good offensive team.
In a draft, a player might only need 6 solid starter to have an edge in pitching, but those players will get drafted most likely inside of the first 16 or 17 rounds.
The reliever angle, a player might only need two pitchers with the first 16 or 17 picks.
I don't agree with rewarding players for avoiding the most difficult part of the game.
[ October 12, 2009, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: CC's Desperados ]
3) If someone goes all starters, they are locking in 30 points for wins and ks and balancing ERA and WHIP. They are decreasing risk as well. If someone goes all RPs, they are locking 45 points in ERA, WHIP and Saves, with no upward movement possible in Wins and Ks. If you assume that an all SP strategy is going to pluck some strong pitchers early, the results are about the same, with more upside to the all SP strategy, but little downside relative to the RP strategy.
If someone goes all starters, they have to either buy elite pitching or commit draft spots to pitching. An all starting pitching angle has the opportunity to get more points, but there is no guarentee whip or era will be near the top of the standings. If you cheat starting pitching, you lose the game.
In a auction, a team can spend $230+ on hitting and spend $30 on pitching. The $30 with the reliever angle might secure a possible 47 points.
If a team wants to but an elite pitching staff, it will cost much more. Therefore hurting that players chances of buying a good offensive team.
In a draft, a player might only need 6 solid starter to have an edge in pitching, but those players will get drafted most likely inside of the first 16 or 17 rounds.
The reliever angle, a player might only need two pitchers with the first 16 or 17 picks.
I don't agree with rewarding players for avoiding the most difficult part of the game.
[ October 12, 2009, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: CC's Desperados ]
Innings Pitched Argument
i'm sure i'm preaching to the choir here...but with no minimum for I's P,,you MAY be tops in two CAT's,,but you're going to suck in two others.
bill cleavenger
BIG BLUE NATION
"we don't rebuild, we reload"
BIG BLUE NATION
"we don't rebuild, we reload"
Innings Pitched Argument
Even as near as last year, I was on Neal's side of this argument. That changed during the slo and Satelite drafts of last year. It seemed like there was somebody JIMmying every draft, thus not making it very appetizing as a warm up for the Main.
Since nobody, to my knowledge, used the JIMmying strategy in the Main, I would be in favor of increasing the innings to 1,000 innings pitched, especially for slo and satelites drafts that are within a month of the Main.
Since nobody, to my knowledge, used the JIMmying strategy in the Main, I would be in favor of increasing the innings to 1,000 innings pitched, especially for slo and satelites drafts that are within a month of the Main.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Innings Pitched Argument
IMO
why do we have to have the minimum IP? all it is, is another strategy that somebody can attempt. it goes against the norm of most fantasy leagues, but why should we care? do we have to dictate you spend so much for hitting vs pitching? i don't think so. what's wrong with an owner taking the low road on pitching, and loading up on hitting?
bill
why do we have to have the minimum IP? all it is, is another strategy that somebody can attempt. it goes against the norm of most fantasy leagues, but why should we care? do we have to dictate you spend so much for hitting vs pitching? i don't think so. what's wrong with an owner taking the low road on pitching, and loading up on hitting?
bill
bill cleavenger
BIG BLUE NATION
"we don't rebuild, we reload"
BIG BLUE NATION
"we don't rebuild, we reload"
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CC's Desperados
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Innings Pitched Argument
Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:
Even as near as last year, I was on Neal's side of this argument. That changed during the slo and Satelite drafts of last year. It seemed like there was somebody JIMmying every draft, thus not making it very appetizing as a warm up for the Main.
Since nobody, to my knowledge, used the JIMmying strategy in the Main, I would be in favor of increasing the innings to 1,000 innings pitched, especially for slo and satelites drafts that are within a month of the Main. In slow drafts, you can open a ton of roster slots by go all reliever.
Even as near as last year, I was on Neal's side of this argument. That changed during the slo and Satelite drafts of last year. It seemed like there was somebody JIMmying every draft, thus not making it very appetizing as a warm up for the Main.
Since nobody, to my knowledge, used the JIMmying strategy in the Main, I would be in favor of increasing the innings to 1,000 innings pitched, especially for slo and satelites drafts that are within a month of the Main. In slow drafts, you can open a ton of roster slots by go all reliever.
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CC's Desperados
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Innings Pitched Argument
Originally posted by Kentucky Reign:
IMO
why do we have to have the minimum IP? all it is, is another strategy that somebody can attempt. it goes against the norm of most fantasy leagues, but why should we care? do we have to dictate you spend so much for hitting vs pitching? i don't think so. what's wrong with an owner taking the low road on pitching, and loading up on hitting?
bill Bill...please go back and read the message board from 2005!
IMO
why do we have to have the minimum IP? all it is, is another strategy that somebody can attempt. it goes against the norm of most fantasy leagues, but why should we care? do we have to dictate you spend so much for hitting vs pitching? i don't think so. what's wrong with an owner taking the low road on pitching, and loading up on hitting?
bill Bill...please go back and read the message board from 2005!
Innings Pitched Argument
Shawn, you need a re-pick in the Mock
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Innings Pitched Argument
i'm sure i can't get there from here..
but it's no different from playing a 6x6 vs a 5x5..everybody adjust to the rules.. :rolleyes:
but it's no different from playing a 6x6 vs a 5x5..everybody adjust to the rules.. :rolleyes:
bill cleavenger
BIG BLUE NATION
"we don't rebuild, we reload"
BIG BLUE NATION
"we don't rebuild, we reload"
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CC's Desperados
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Innings Pitched Argument
Originally posted by Kentucky Reign:
i'm sure i can't get there from here..
but it's no different from playing a 6x6 vs a 5x5..everybody adjust to the rules.. :rolleyes: I guess you don't mind getting robbed every year!
[ October 12, 2009, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: CC's Desperados ]
i'm sure i can't get there from here..
but it's no different from playing a 6x6 vs a 5x5..everybody adjust to the rules.. :rolleyes: I guess you don't mind getting robbed every year!
[ October 12, 2009, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: CC's Desperados ]
Innings Pitched Argument
Originally posted by CC's Desperados:
quote:Originally posted by Kentucky Reign:
i'm sure i can't get there from here..
but it's no different from playing a 6x6 vs a 5x5..everybody adjust to the rules.. :rolleyes: I guess you don't mind getting robbed every year! [/QUOTE]isn't it all an even playing field?
quote:Originally posted by Kentucky Reign:
i'm sure i can't get there from here..
but it's no different from playing a 6x6 vs a 5x5..everybody adjust to the rules.. :rolleyes: I guess you don't mind getting robbed every year! [/QUOTE]isn't it all an even playing field?
bill cleavenger
BIG BLUE NATION
"we don't rebuild, we reload"
BIG BLUE NATION
"we don't rebuild, we reload"
Innings Pitched Argument
Originally posted by Kentucky Reign:
IMO
why do we have to have the minimum IP? all it is, is another strategy that somebody can attempt. it goes against the norm of most fantasy leagues, but why should we care? do we have to dictate you spend so much for hitting vs pitching? i don't think so. what's wrong with an owner taking the low road on pitching, and loading up on hitting?
bill Shawn said it above.
Philosophically, should the winners be players who can evaluate and draft an entire team of quality baseball players, or those who short- circuit the competition and just load up on the best hitters, a couple of top closers and some middle relief? It's like t-ball instead of baseball.
IMO
why do we have to have the minimum IP? all it is, is another strategy that somebody can attempt. it goes against the norm of most fantasy leagues, but why should we care? do we have to dictate you spend so much for hitting vs pitching? i don't think so. what's wrong with an owner taking the low road on pitching, and loading up on hitting?
bill Shawn said it above.
Philosophically, should the winners be players who can evaluate and draft an entire team of quality baseball players, or those who short- circuit the competition and just load up on the best hitters, a couple of top closers and some middle relief? It's like t-ball instead of baseball.
Innings Pitched Argument
Originally posted by KJ Duke:
quote:Originally posted by Kentucky Reign:
IMO
why do we have to have the minimum IP? all it is, is another strategy that somebody can attempt. it goes against the norm of most fantasy leagues, but why should we care? do we have to dictate you spend so much for hitting vs pitching? i don't think so. what's wrong with an owner taking the low road on pitching, and loading up on hitting?
bill Shawn said it above.
Philosophically, should the winners be players who can evaluate and draft an entire team of quality baseball players, or those who short- circuit the competition and just load up on the best hitters, a couple of top closers and some middle relief? It's like t-ball instead of baseball. [/QUOTE]point taken!!
quote:Originally posted by Kentucky Reign:
IMO
why do we have to have the minimum IP? all it is, is another strategy that somebody can attempt. it goes against the norm of most fantasy leagues, but why should we care? do we have to dictate you spend so much for hitting vs pitching? i don't think so. what's wrong with an owner taking the low road on pitching, and loading up on hitting?
bill Shawn said it above.
Philosophically, should the winners be players who can evaluate and draft an entire team of quality baseball players, or those who short- circuit the competition and just load up on the best hitters, a couple of top closers and some middle relief? It's like t-ball instead of baseball. [/QUOTE]point taken!!
bill cleavenger
BIG BLUE NATION
"we don't rebuild, we reload"
BIG BLUE NATION
"we don't rebuild, we reload"
Innings Pitched Argument
Originally posted by Kentucky Reign:
quote:Originally posted by CC's Desperados:
quote:Originally posted by Kentucky Reign:
i'm sure i can't get there from here..
but it's no different from playing a 6x6 vs a 5x5..everybody adjust to the rules.. :rolleyes: I guess you don't mind getting robbed every year! [/QUOTE]isn't it all an even playing field? [/QUOTE]It IS a level playing field.
Everyone can adjust to the rules, but why take away 1/3rd of the game?
quote:Originally posted by CC's Desperados:
quote:Originally posted by Kentucky Reign:
i'm sure i can't get there from here..
but it's no different from playing a 6x6 vs a 5x5..everybody adjust to the rules.. :rolleyes: I guess you don't mind getting robbed every year! [/QUOTE]isn't it all an even playing field? [/QUOTE]It IS a level playing field.
Everyone can adjust to the rules, but why take away 1/3rd of the game?
Innings Pitched Argument
do you care if an owner "punts" saves?
bill cleavenger
BIG BLUE NATION
"we don't rebuild, we reload"
BIG BLUE NATION
"we don't rebuild, we reload"
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CC's Desperados
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Innings Pitched Argument
Originally posted by Kentucky Reign:
do you care if an owner "punts" saves? No
do you care if an owner "punts" saves? No
Innings Pitched Argument
Originally posted by CC's Desperados:
quote:Originally posted by Kentucky Reign:
do you care if an owner "punts" saves? No [/QUOTE]so why should it matter if a guy punts Wins?
quote:Originally posted by Kentucky Reign:
do you care if an owner "punts" saves? No [/QUOTE]so why should it matter if a guy punts Wins?
bill cleavenger
BIG BLUE NATION
"we don't rebuild, we reload"
BIG BLUE NATION
"we don't rebuild, we reload"
Innings Pitched Argument
Go back to the original thread, Bill. Its covered.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
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CC's Desperados
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- Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 6:00 pm
Innings Pitched Argument
Originally posted by Kentucky Reign:
quote:Originally posted by CC's Desperados:
quote:Originally posted by Kentucky Reign:
do you care if an owner "punts" saves? No [/QUOTE]so why should it matter if a guy punts Wins? [/QUOTE]He can punt wins, but he shouldn't be awards top points in two categories by avoiding starting pitching.
Bill...have you played in any leagues when this has happened?
[ October 12, 2009, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: CC's Desperados ]
quote:Originally posted by CC's Desperados:
quote:Originally posted by Kentucky Reign:
do you care if an owner "punts" saves? No [/QUOTE]so why should it matter if a guy punts Wins? [/QUOTE]He can punt wins, but he shouldn't be awards top points in two categories by avoiding starting pitching.
Bill...have you played in any leagues when this has happened?
[ October 12, 2009, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: CC's Desperados ]