Hall of Fame

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:39 am

ESPN.com touted Edgar Martinez to be a Hall of Famer last week. This week, Barry Larkin. I would be more than surprised if either gets elected on the first ballot.

Edgar Martinez was a marvelous hitter. Stop. That's it.

He did not bring a glove to play his last 10 years of his career. To be a Hall of Famer as a designated hitter, especially on the first ballot takes more than what Martinez has to offer.

Martinez hit. 312 over his career. He had 2247 hits. 309 home runs and 1261 rbi.

Lets compare those numbers with a guy that got just 15 percent of the Hall of Fame vote last year, Dave Parker. Parker hit .290. He had 2712 hits. 339 home runs and 1,493 rbi. By the numbers, I give Parker the slight edge.

Personality-wise, Martinez wins in a landslide. He was a model citizen and fan favorite in Seattle. He played his entire career in Seattle, one of the last players with a lot years to stay at one franchise. Parker became an assasin for hire after his best years in Pittsburgh. He battled weight problems. He, admittedly, took cocaine and other drugs d' jour of the day.

Personality, whether voters will admit it or not, does come into play on ballots. I expect Martinez to exceed Parkers 15 percent of the vote, probably even double or maybe even triple Parker's vote, but it'd be shocking to see him get in on the first ballot.

Shortly, the personality vote will also keep Roberto Alomar off the first ballot. No matter how wonderful he was to watch playing second base and hitting second in a lot of great lineups, Alomar will always be remembered for spitting on umpire John Hirschbeck. His numbers are Hall of Fame, but it'll take more than a couple of years for him to get in.

This week ESPN touts Barry Larkin. Larkin hit .295, Had 2,340 hits and 198 home runs along with playing a great shortstop.

Again, lets compare Larkin to another shortstop on the ballot, Alan Trammell. Trammell hit .285, had 2,365 hits, and hit 185 home runs. Virtually, a dead heat in numbers. They were and have been exemplorary men. Trammell received just 17 percent from Hall of Fame voters last year. In the voting years to come, Larkin and Trammell should receive similar votes.

Since it does not look good for any new players to receive a first ballot nomination, it bodes well for Andre Dawson and Bert Blyleven. They keep rising each year and this could be the year that they get 75 percent of the vote, last year Dawson had 67 percent of the vote, while Blyleven received 62 percent.

Aside from who gets in or not, other things on the ballots are interesting. Mark McGwire getting more votes than Alan Trammell. Don Mattingly and Dale Murphy getting just 11 per cent of the vote. Jay Bell getting two votes. Jay Bell?

All of this is a prelude for the 2013 vote. That year, first time possible inductees include shoo-in Greg Maddox along with Mike Mussina, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and Sammy Sosa.

[ December 30, 2009, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: DOUGHBOYS ]

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:02 am

I think Trammel's candidacy really got hurt by the ARod/Jeter/Nomar/Tejada era of power hitting shortstops.

Compare his numbers to shortstops from previous eras and he's right there.

As far as 2013 goes, I hope Bonds, Clemens, & Sosa suffer the same fate as McGwire...

Glenn

Ryan C · Post by **Ryan C** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:35 am

First off - Happy New Year to you Dan - you have successfully dragged me back onto the boards for the new season.

I think you do a fair job of laying out Martinez's pro's as a candidate, and while I don't think he's a first ballot guy, I do think there are other elements that will/should be considered.

First off for me is his heritage - he is arguably the most popular Puerto Rican player since Roberto Clemente - a role that he definitely embraced in his adopted hometown of Seattle. His community work is legendary. One of my favorite examples was his work in helping found Plaza Bank, Washington state's first Hispanic Bank.

Also - this isn't an official count - but I believe there are only 7 or 8 Latino players currently in the Hall. That will be changing in the coming years - but Edgar fits the bill as a worthy member of this small club.

And this I think is a good one - In 2004, Major League Baseball renamed the Outstanding Designated Hitter Award in Edgar's honor. A five-time winner of the award, he is one of five players to have MLB awards named for them. The others are: Cy Young for pitching, Hank Aaron for batting, Roberto Clemente for "sportsmanship, community involvement and the individual's contribution to his team", and Ted Williams for the All-Star Game MVP Award. Needless to say the others are all in the HOF.

Yes - he didn't bring a glove to the field - but if a DH is ever going to get in - it should be Edgar first.

Ryan C · Post by **Ryan C** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:47 am

To me - one of the most interesting cases this year - and guy I will be watching the vote totals on is Fred McGriff. A power hitter who hit his 493 hrs in the midst of the steroid era. & more homers and he's likely in with less discussion - but as a guy who as far as I know was never linked to steroids - that 493 looks a lot better next to the inflated power numbers of the other players of his era. I think alot of anti-roids voters might send a message by giving McGriff and maybe even Murphy more respect for "clean" numbers.

Also - McGuire aside - McGriff becomes the eligible player with the highest HR total on the ballot this year.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:10 am

Good to have you back, Ryan, you've been missed.

A fair case for Edgar. I would have a hard time seeing Edgar make it when a lot of hitters have better numbers AND they played defense. His off the field heroics may be better than his on field play, but I don't think it will hold up for induction.

I also see Ortiz having a tough time as well with steroids looming large. As far as I know, Jim Thome doesen't have a roids rap and has the numbers to get into the Hall.

I agree with the assessment about the Crime Dog. He is not the sexiest pick for a Hall of Fame member, but he does deserve recognition.

TOXIC ASSETS · Post by **TOXIC ASSETS** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:32 am

Of all the guys you mentioned, the one who most deservedly SHOULD be in the Hall is Bert Blyleven. Hard to believe after all of these years he is still trying to get in. I'll give Dawson a maybe. The Hall should be reserved for the best of the best. Most of those other guys don't fit that category.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:08 am

Originally posted by TOXIC ASSETS:

Of all the guys you mentioned, the one who most deservedly SHOULD be in the Hall is Bert Blyleven. Hard to believe after all of these years he is still trying to get in. I'll give Dawson a maybe. The Hall should be reserved for the best of the best. Most of those other guys don't fit that category. It has happened through history. Every system is flawed, some are flawed more than others. As for the Hall of Fame, too many votes are in the hands of writers that do not follow all the nuances of baseball. Flawed but tolerable.

Did you know on the first ballot that Lou Gehrig was on only 22% of the ballots cast?

bjoak · Post by **bjoak** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:39 am

I went to the HoF during my travels this holiday season. Great time and I recommend it to everyone, particularly if you're fascinated by it and who gets in (because I'm not). One interesting thing is that being 'in it' simply means getting your plaque in the big room where there are already too many to see while there. There was plenty of Pete Rose (and Pujols for that matter) memoribilia to look at in other exhibits, for example, though. You can be immortilized in other areas.

Navel Lint · Post by **Navel Lint** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:08 am

My unsolicited ballot.

Always would get my vote;

A Dawson, B Blyleven, T Raines, R Alomar

Depends on what I read or hear or remember that day;

L Smith, J Morris, M Mcgwire, D Parker, A Trammell, B Larkin, F Mcgriff, D Murphy, E Martinez ----- TODAY, only Trammell

If I could reinstate players back to the ballot to be voted on again;

Bill Buckner, Dick Allen

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:44 pm

I would re-open voting for Vada Pinson.

He gets my vote as the most underrated player of the 1960's. Pinson had over 2700 hits, leading the league twice, over 400 doubles, over 100 triples, over 250 home runs, and over 300 stolen bases, on top of that, a wonderful center fielder.

Thunder · Post by **Thunder** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:01 pm

in the OF between harper and frank didn't hurt vada.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:18 pm

Harper was coming into his own as Pinson started to fade.

Pinson was a great player in his own right. Leading the league in hits twice, doubles, triples twice, a gold glover, and two time all star.

During the 1960's, only five outfielders received Gold Gloves outside of Willie Mays, Curt Flood, and Roberto Clemente, a tremendous run by those three. In fact, those three outfielders won every gold glove from 1962-68.

Thunder · Post by **Thunder** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:25 pm

dan

i can appreciate your admiration for vada. but they'll vote pete in before him.

bill

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:29 pm

True dat.

I wasn't campaigning for Pinson as much as remembering what a fun player he was to watch and how overlooked he was in the 60's.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:33 pm

By the way, Pete, in '69 was the gold glover that broke the streak of Mays/Flood/Clemente.

Thunder · Post by **Thunder** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:37 pm

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

By the way, Pete, in '69 was the gold glover that broke the streak of Mays/Flood/Clemente. as a rose fan, i never knew he won a gold glove...was it at 2b, of, 3b or 1b....? i get so confused at his love for the game, i forget where he was the best at.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:45 pm

He won two gold gloves. In '69 and '70 in the outfield.

TOXIC ASSETS · Post by **TOXIC ASSETS** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:01 am

DOUGHBOYS - Vada Pinson was way before my time, so I checked his career numbers. Very very close to being a Hall of Famer. 2700+ hits with good power and steals numbers. I like the "baseball-reference.com" website. According to them, here are the 10 players who had the "most similar" careers. The two guys with the * are in the HOF. Would I vote for him? Probably not. If he had 3,000 hits, or a .300 lifetime average like Clemente, then yes I would.

Steve Finley (908)

Roberto Clemente (869) *

Al Oliver (863)

Willie Davis (857)

Johnny Damon (852)

Dave Parker (846)

Zack Wheat (840) *

Steve Garvey (837)

Bill Buckner (833)

Bernie Williams (822)

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:07 am

That is good company.

When trying to compare Pinson to a modern day player, Damon came to mind. But they would get different votes, Damon played with a lot of press attention, while Pinson played under the radar.

My mission is complete, in that I have made some 2010 fantasy players aware of the exploits of a stealth star of the '60's.

TOXIC ASSETS · Post by **TOXIC ASSETS** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:20 am

Johnny Damon is another guy I would place into the category of "very good" player but not HOF.

What was your opinion of Jim Rice getting in after a very long wait? I thought he was deserving, because the couple of "monster" seasons he had made up for a relatively short career and some numbers totals that otherwise might have fallen a little short.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:50 am

I link Rice and Gossage with Dawson and Blyleven.

At a point, voters get tired of seeing players come close, but not make it.

People can state a case for and against each player. In 20 years, most will not remember whether they are in or out. To me, those type players are the true borderline Hall of Famers.

For me, the interesting story comes out when the steroid names are released.

If most of todays stars are on that list, for instance, Chipper Jones, Ken Griffey Jr, Greg Maddux....It leaves me to wonder what HOF voters do with these guys.

With McGwire getting so few votes, it looks like if a name is linked with steroids that there will not be much chance of getting into the Hall.

My feeling is that, one day, voters will change or, there will be an event that changes minds.

A for instance:

Greg Maddux gets voted into the Hall on the first ballot in 2013. In 2014, Maddux writes a book saying that he did experiment with steroids to get through an injury.

Now, the door is open for everyone, since a known steroid user is already in the Hall. For all we know, it may have already occurred. We don't know.

Sorry, I got off on a jag and went way beyond the question. :rolleyes:

Ryan C · Post by **Ryan C** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:41 am

Vada Pinson huh? You can have a lot of fun comparing him to other guys who are borderline HOF's - Here are some numbers to consider for two other OF's who didn't make it:

Pinson - Player A - Player B

Runs 1366 - 1189 - 1470

Hits 2757 - 2743 - 2446

2b 485 - 529 - 483

3b 127 - 77 - 73

HR 256 - 219 - 385

RBI 1170 - 1326 - 1384

SB 305 - 85 - 78

BA .286 - .303 - .272

OBP .327 - .344 - .370

OPS .769 - .795 - .840

AS 2 - 7 - 3

GG 1 - 0 - 8

If Pinson gets in in your mind - what do you make of these two set of numbers Dan? Player B is one of my personal favorites - and one who shows that BA is a poor stat in evaluating hitters. Look at player B's OBP and OPS compared to the others. Throw in the GG's and I see a player who deserved a longer look by the HOF committee. Player A actually also deserved to stay on the ballot more then the one year he was considered.

Player A is Al Oliver - a pure hitter who won a WS with the Pirates in the early 70's.

Player B is Dwight Evans - whose defense from RF is still in my mind the best that I ever saw play.

TOXIC ASSETS · Post by **TOXIC ASSETS** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:12 pm

Ryan - I looked up Al Oliver's numbers and was surprised that they were that good. I counted 11 seasons he hit .300 or higher (full season) and a lifetime average of .303. Plus as you said, he won a World Series. To me, that would be enough to get into the HOF.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:30 pm

Lack of power, lack of speed, lack of pizzazz were the things holding Oliver back. He also played at a venue where players have to be a true superstar to get into the Hall.

Dewey was a favorite of mine as well. What a great arm and a good clutch hitter. He's a lot like Mattingly in that they were both very good for a time, but do not possess a statistic that says Hall of Fame.

Again, I wasn't campaigning for Pinson as much as wanting to bring his name up, and that he should have gotten more recognition than he did. The same could be said for Oliver, Evans and Trammell and Parker as well.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:27 am

Congratulations to Andre Dawson for making the Hall of Fame yesterday. It's a shame he had to wait more than a decade to get in, but at least the writers finally got it right.

The Hawk was the best right fielder in the game during his peak and he had a cannon for an arm. He also had speed and power, becoming only the third player (actually second at the time to Willie Mays; Barry Bonds followed) with 400+ home runs and 300+ stolen bases. I always liked him and admired him even more during his MVP season with the Cubs. He was a gamer and a tough, tough out.

Next year it's time to let Bert Blyleven in the Hall of Fame. He inched closer this year and next year it's time to put in the nastiest curveball in the game. And it's okay that Roberto Alomar didn't make it on his first ballot, but Robby will get in next year after seeing the lame first-year list for 2011. Alomar was a smooth second baseman who won two World Series titles with Toronto and deserves a spot in the Hall.

Just my two cents, but I'm glad to see Dawson in and I think it would have been even better with Blyleven joining him.