Utterly Ridiculous

Sebadiah23 · Post by **Sebadiah23** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:19 pm

Marty wants credit for starting the run. However, that's where Greinke is going in every draft buddy!

Just joking around Marty because you're in the Shandler league with me next week.

I think it was a case of 15 owners randomly being stuck in a draft with more than the normal amount of players with the same draft plan. And not many adjusted. Maybe because they were rushed into not adjusting from their planned strategy. But still, fact. The only constant is change. Deal with it guys.

-Craig K.

MGBMARTY · Post by **MGBMARTY** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:29 pm

Hey Craig

Want no credit for that run. Wish it went differently. Why didn't you come out to eat with us after draft? Steak house called Tun Steve went plus a few more. Thought you were coming too. Never competed with you ever, should be fun this Saturday with the experts.

Marty

Hells Satans · Post by **Hells Satans** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:34 pm

Originally posted by bjoak:

quote:Originally posted by Hells Satans:

In 2008, a THT did a study that showed that the AVERAGE pitcher had a .57 increase in K/9 whebn when switching from the AL to NL. For elite pitchers, the number is even greater. Cliff Lee had a career average K/9 of 6.8 and was at 6.3 before the trade. His k/9 with the Phillies was 8.3. Javier Vasquez went from 8.6 in CWS to 9.8 last year.

Even if Halladay has a modest .57 k/9 increase from his 7.7 average of the last two years (to 8.2) AND you assume he pitches only 220 innings for some reason (he's never pitched fewer than 220 IP in any season where he made 30 starts), Halladay would still end up with 202 Ks. I'm not sure you get Gekko's point which is that in the NL Halladay will be more likely to get pulled for pinch hitters, causing him to lose 20 innings and therefore strikeouts.

That said, it's not a good point. That number indicates in more than half of Halladay's starts, he'd be pulled a full inning early. If you compare the top 30 SPs in the NL and AL over the last five years, you will find the average number of innings pitched per game is virtually identical. Kyle Kendrick gets pulled for pinch hitters--not Roy Halladay. [/QUOTE]I understand his point and disagree. But even if he loses 20 innings (from 240 to 220), his expected K/9 increase from the league switch would still give him 200+ Ks

Interesting point about Halladay: He was 1 inning behind Verlander for the ML lead in IP. He was, however, 18th in pitches thrown - almost 550 fewer than Verlander, or another 5 starts worth of pitches.

[ March 22, 2010, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Hells Satans ]

ESPN8 THE OCHO · Post by **ESPN8 THE OCHO** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:06 pm

Sounds like a lot of sour grapes. Part of producing a great club is reading the draft and reacting. If their is a pitcher run, no matter how large, get in on 1 and enjoy the talent that is falling.

Its sad poeple are blaming their poor drafts on others draft strategies.

Gekko · Post by **Gekko** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:11 pm

who said they had a poor draft?????

did all u guys get a passing reading/writing grade in elementary school????

Sebadiah23 · Post by **Sebadiah23** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:13 pm

Sorry Marty, I didn't know about it. On the positive side though I went over to the Taj and won 500 playing 10-20 limit, my old favorite poker spot.

-Craig

Dirt Dogs · Post by **Dirt Dogs** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:15 pm

gekko never said he had a bad draft. He just said it was a crazy pitcher heavy league and he dosent feel his team is well rounded enough for the 100K due to that.

c-ya in NY GG!

Sebadiah23 · Post by **Sebadiah23** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:27 pm

Not sure what you're trying to say Dirt Dogs, you're sounding contradictory. Didn't you watch Fantasyland the Movie man? Second place is first loser said Sir Ron! Some of us are playing to win it all here.

However, I'm pretty sure somebody won the main taking their first pitcher in round eight a couple years ago so I find the whole conversation silly personally.

MCPTRS · Post by **MCPTRS** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:33 pm

I was the 5th pick at the table one seat to Mr. Gekko's left and let me personally thank you Mark, for starting this thread because this being my first NFBC Draft I left the room completely baffled by what went down.

The speed seemed awfully quick, but for (this being my first time) the only indication that it was fast was listening to the names from the other two tables when hearing guys like "Dempster" being called out literally 45 mins to an hour after he been picked at ours.

I'll say this...

If anyone is planning on using a draft software like Rotolab ie you damn well better have a co-owner or a buddy/secretary who's sole responsibility is to run the software and not do much of the thinking.

I was very fortunate to have my best friend and co-owner in the Auction be able to do that for me and even with an"assistant" sitting by my side there were 3 separate occasions where we fell behind by 5 to 8 picks and had to literally stand up and walk over to the board to manually write down the names then rush back to the chair before it was my turn to make my pick with 20 seconds to spare.

One more thing about that...

I have freakishly good eye sight 13/9 to be exact and I'm telling you with the speed at which this draft moved there was no way to,

A. Keep up by ear without a tape recorder

B. Keep up by eye because at my 5th pick section of the table we must have been sitting 40 plus feet away.

While with my eyes I could relatively easily see the players last name without issue,the top(First) names with their considerably smaller fonts were absolutely impossible to read without a set of Bushnell binoculars.

So even when you got behind and wanted to rely on the board, guys with Bottom/Last names like Ramirez/Martinez/Cabrera etc...(There must be 30 of em) put you even further in the hole cause you had to get up and walk down to "First Name"-Visibility proximity.

The same had to be said for anyone at our table drafting from the 5th thru 11th spots.

If not for the extreme pace this probably would not be much of an issue but I thought it worth noting.

Seeing as how I too have a second ticket to the Main at Citifield I have to admit that I left in a near state of shock with how much work I would have to do this week in overhauling my 3 months worth of strategy building.

I literally lived at Mock Draft Central for the past three months setting up and participating in multiple 23 and 30 round NFBC Practice Drafts per week and often times per day.

While it was by no means my only method of preparation, I did use it extensively as a pre-draft laboratory to implement/refine different experiments from various draft positions. Over time I became comfortable from each 3rd of the order developing a series of targets for each using the ADP's as a guide blah blah blah....I'm sure none of this is anything new to anyone here and I assume this is a pretty regular practice among most of us. Sure it's not one hundred percent reliable but it usually serves as a relatively effective way to guage what to expect right?

NOPE

Not if you were sitting at the Group 1 table on Saturday.

The most disturbing aspect was that as some have already noted it seemed like the ebb and flow of a "normal run" had no EBB JUST FLOW!!

Sure the top guys were all bumped roughly a full round in front of where you may have prepared but it just never stopped.

It did actually seem like if you didn't join in the fun by moving up all your SP targets 2 to 3 rounds ahead of where they were "supposed" to go with regard to ADP you were frankly left with far riskier guys composing a far greater portion of your staff.

To be honest I agree with some of the OA sentiment.

I think I adapted rather nicely all things considered and I believe I've put together a contender in my specific league but for any designs I may have had at competing in the overall....I have sneaking suspicion they have been seriously compromised.

I'm glad that Gekko could beautifully articulate the exact numbers with regard to the 41 % inflation because it really felt like the world turned upside down about from the about the 3rd round thru completion and without an exact way to convey this feeling I believe he perfectly nailed it!!

What's really got me worried is that without any evidence of similar radical goings on in the rest of Saturdays Main Event drafts I'm left not having any real way to factor in what happened in AC to what I should or am likely to expect in New York.

We're we really just the freaks of the 2010 NFBC or we're we some kind of harbinger of a radical shift in the valuation of Starting Pitchers going forward?

I'd feel a whole lot better if we were seeing similar reports from some of the other venues that drafted Saturday but to my knowledge they either don't have their own Gekko lol

or we really were the anomaly league.

Ps. I agree that it was the most prepared and knowledgeable group of owners I've ever come across and it wasn't close. That probably contributed most to the crystal meth bender pace that saw us finish some 90+ minutes prior to any of the other reported drafts.

And just for a rookie's perspective...I was expecting some tough competition but this was EXTREME. There were several times that I'd put together a quick tier of 12 players for when it swung back my way only to see them virtually go in order hah!!!

Hoping for two from my "quick tier" I was very lucky and very thankful/relieved if I got ONE!!

[ March 22, 2010, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: MCPTRS ]

Sebadiah23 · Post by **Sebadiah23** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:35 pm

I read Corey Schwartz' big post from a year ago last night, his Fantasy411 blog. I think his first starter taken was Ricky Nolasco and finished 5th overall. Some of his early picks were just as pathetic.

-Craig

Sebadiah23 · Post by **Sebadiah23** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:18 pm

Anybody left in the league that hasn't whined yet?

Gekko · Post by **Gekko** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:36 pm

Originally posted by MCPTRS:

I was the 5th pick at the table one seat to Mr. Gekko's left and let me personally thank you Mark, for starting this thread because this being my first NFBC Draft I left the room completely baffled by what went down.

The speed seemed awfully quick, but for (this being my first time) the only indication that it was fast was listening to the names from the other two tables when hearing guys like "Dempster" being called out literally 45 mins to an hour after he been picked at ours.

I'll say this...

If anyone is planning on using a draft software like Rotolab ie you damn well better have a co-owner or a buddy/secretary who's sole responsibility is to run the software and not do much of the thinking.

I was very fortunate to have my best friend and co-owner in the Auction be able to do that for me and even with an"assistant" sitting by my side there were 3 separate occasions where we fell behind by 5 to 8 picks and had to literally stand up and walk over to the board to manually write down the names then rush back to the chair before it was my turn to make my pick with 20 seconds to spare.

One more thing about that...

I have freakishly good eye sight 13/9 to be exact and I'm telling you with the speed at which this draft moved there was no way to,

A. Keep up by ear without a tape recorder

B. Keep up by eye because at my 5th pick section of the table we must have been sitting 40 plus feet away.

While with my eyes I could relatively easily see the players last name without issue,the top(First) names with their considerably smaller fonts were absolutely impossible to read without a set of Bushnell binoculars.

So even when you got behind and wanted to rely on the board, guys with Bottom/Last names like Ramirez/Martinez/Cabrera etc...(There must be 30 of em) put you even further in the hole cause you had to get up and walk down to "First Name"-Visibility proximity.

The same had to be said for anyone at our table drafting from the 5th thru 11th spots.

If not for the extreme pace this probably would not be much of an issue but I thought it worth noting.

Seeing as how I too have a second ticket to the Main at Citifield I have to admit that I left in a near state of shock with how much work I would have to do this week in overhauling my 3 months worth of strategy building.

I literally lived at Mock Draft Central for the past three months setting up and participating in multiple 23 and 30 round NFBC Practice Drafts per week and often times per day.

While it was by no means my only method of preparation, I did use it extensively as a pre-draft laboratory to implement/refine different experiments from various draft positions. Over time I became comfortable from each 3rd of the order developing a series of targets for each using the ADP's as a guide blah blah blah....I'm sure none of this is anything new to anyone here and I assume this is a pretty regular practice among most of us. Sure it's not one hundred percent reliable but it usually serves as a relatively effective way to guage what to expect right?

NOPE

Not if you were sitting at the Group 1 table on Saturday.

The most disturbing aspect was that as some have already noted it seemed like the ebb and flow of a "normal run" had no EBB JUST FLOW!!

Sure the top guys were all bumped roughly a full round in front of where you may have prepared but it just never stopped.

It did actually seem like if you didn't join in the fun by moving up all your SP targets 2 to 3 rounds ahead of where they were "supposed" to go with regard to ADP you were frankly left with far riskier guys composing a far greater portion of your staff.

To be honest I agree with some of the OA sentiment.

I think I adapted rather nicely all things considered and I believe I've put together a contender in my specific league but for any designs I may have had at competing in the overall....I have sneaking suspicion they have been seriously compromised.

Way too many Hail Mary's have to Well this draft more than any other I've ever prepared for made a mockery of most most if not all my preparation or that with which had been and I've been playing upwards of 10 leagues for 4 yrs nowand yeah sure the real thing will inevitably vary in different areas and specific tiers nd came came up with a few different basic frameworks of how I wished to go

about

I'm glad that Gekko could beautifully articulate the exact numbers with regard to the 41 % inflation because it really felt like the world turned upside down about from the about the 3rd round thru completion and without an exact way to convey this feeling I believe he perfectly nailed it!!

What's really got me worried is that without any evidence of similar radical goings on in the rest of Saturdays Main Event drafts I'm left not having any real way to factor in what happened in AC to what I should or am likely to expect in New York.

We're we really just the freaks of the 2010 NFBC or we're we some kind of harbinger of a radical shift in the valuation of Starting Pitchers going forward?

I'd feel a whole lot better if we were seeing similar reports from some of the other venues that drafted Saturday but to my knowledge they either don't have their own Gekko lol

or we really were the anomaly league.

Ps. I agree that it was the most prepared and knowledgeable group of owners I've ever come across and it wasn't close. That probably contributed most to the crystal meth bender pace that saw us finish some 90+ minutes prior to any of the other reported drafts.

And just for a rookie's perspective...I was expecting some tough competition but this was EXTREME. There were several times that I'd put together a quick tier of 12 players for when it swung back my way only to see them virtually go in order hah!!!

Hoping for two from my "quick tier" I was very lucky and very thankful/relieved if I got ONE!! well put. it was great chatting with you guys. and thanks for stealing my pick in the 15th.

still can't get over that cooler.

matt25112 · Post by **matt25112** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:47 pm

I would much rather hear these guys admit they do not like the team they drafted as much as they hoped they would than the guy who no matter what team they got says "championship". I am not a rookie to fantasy baseball but am a rookie to these high stakes nfbc games so I decided to get my feet wet with a online double play this year.

Long story short one guys drafted with this first 7 picks: Lincecum,Halladay,Felix,Verlander,Paplebon,Mariano,Vazquz.

I know that nobody could get all these guys in the 15 teamer but it still creates the same situation, so I see where the frustration comes from.

At the same time though you must have a nice looking lineup if you missed out on some pitchers cuz I sure do. Now its time for all the upside pitchers to break out

rkulaski · Post by **rkulaski** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:51 pm

Originally posted by Hells Satans:

quote:Originally posted by bjoak:

quote:Originally posted by Hells Satans:

In 2008, a THT did a study that showed that the AVERAGE pitcher had a .57 increase in K/9 whebn when switching from the AL to NL. For elite pitchers, the number is even greater. Cliff Lee had a career average K/9 of 6.8 and was at 6.3 before the trade. His k/9 with the Phillies was 8.3. Javier Vasquez went from 8.6 in CWS to 9.8 last year.

Even if Halladay has a modest .57 k/9 increase from his 7.7 average of the last two years (to 8.2) AND you assume he pitches only 220 innings for some reason (he's never pitched fewer than 220 IP in any season where he made 30 starts), Halladay would still end up with 202 Ks. I'm not sure you get Gekko's point which is that in the NL Halladay will be more likely to get pulled for pinch hitters, causing him to lose 20 innings and therefore strikeouts.

That said, it's not a good point. That number indicates in more than half of Halladay's starts, he'd be pulled a full inning early. If you compare the top 30 SPs in the NL and AL over the last five years, you will find the average number of innings pitched per game is virtually identical. Kyle Kendrick gets pulled for pinch hitters--not Roy Halladay. [/QUOTE]I understand his point and disagree. But even if he loses 20 innings (from 240 to 220), his expected K/9 increase from the league switch would still give him 200+ Ks

Interesting point about Halladay: He was 1 inning behind Verlander for the ML lead in IP. He was, however, 18th in pitches thrown - almost 550 fewer than Verlander, or another 5 starts worth of pitches. [/QUOTE]Great point about Halladay. So many look at IP and do not take into account the number of pitches thrown. Sometimes Halladay's 9 innings is the same # of pitches from 5 innings of a Kershaw or Kazmir.

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:01 pm

Ok, a few interesting tidbits & observations on this draft from someone who was part of it now that I have read through 13 some-odd pages of analyzing how, questioning why, prophesizing the ramifications to follow, even predicting the end of the world as we know it, etc......

- Though this run at the 4/5 turn most certainly took place and a number of pitchers went significantly early as compared to their satellite ADP, early on this draft was following a completely opposite trend. Neither Lincicum, Halladay, Felix, Greinke, CC, nor Haren were chosen above their satellite ADP and some fell a half a round or more below. So the acknowledged top aces actually represented "value picks" (Verlander, the one significant exception, was taken well well before his ADP).

- I didn't see this posted anywhere here yet, but when studied & analyzed, an argument could be made that the run was actually started by none other than Mr. Gekko himself. There was a pitcher taken two picks before his 4th rounder that at first glance many would assume as the start of the run (an offensive player was taken between these two picks), but this pitcher was actually chosen right around his ADP. Mark's pick on the other hand was the first pitcher drafted since Verlander that was a significant jump in ADP. This was the start of a run of 9 pitchers taken in the next 11 picks, 7 of which were chosen in the round at a minimum preceding the one called out by their ADP.

One can even make the argument that Mark's pick signaled to the less accomplished drafters in this league that pitching should be taken early....and as sheep, we followed.

- This draft started to normalize during the course of the draft. Though it took a while due to the trend that was set, and as can be expected in any draft there was still the occasional outlier, pitchers eventually started to fall within range of their projected ADP.

-The unexpected run left many with the choice of joining the run or bucking the trend and reaping the rewards of value on offense. I personally chose the latter because I viewed it as an opportunity. I have several risk/reward type pitchers I've watched and felt that if I could make the right offensive choices among those that were now made available a round or so later than anticipated and hit on my speculation picks at pitching, well who knows? If wrong, well I'll join several hundred other Main Event drafters who'll have made the wrong choices in their drafts as well.

-One last thing, many are using the fact that Mark was thrown a bit by this run to bash him. There were several experienced drafters in this draft. Not one wasn't somewhat thrown. Who honestly could have anticipated that run? What Mark did was take a breath (giving the rest of us a breath as well), and re-thought his strategy, in lieu of making a hasty pick. Although at the time, I was surprised by what was taking place, I respected the manuever. He had to know he'd get killed for it.

Glenn

CC's Desperados · Post by **CC's Desperados** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:01 pm

I agree with Glenn's observations here.

Gekko started the run, but he didn't know it was going to happen when he made his selection. After he saw the run, he was still in position to take a quality starter. He choose not to. He made a bad read and choose the wrong position. If he reads the inventory properly, his team would have still be on the right path. He would probably get a 5th round bat in the 6th round.

rkulaski · Post by **rkulaski** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:17 pm

Originally posted by CC's Desperados:

I agree with Glenn's observations here.

Gekko started the run, but he didn't know it was going to happen when he made his selection. After he saw the run, he was still in position to take a quality starter. He choose not to. He made a bad read and choose the wrong position. If he reads the inventory properly, his team would have still be on the right path. He would probably get a 5th round bat in the 6th round. Not sure I follow... hard to say without knowing the construction of the team up to that point.

CC's Desperados · Post by **CC's Desperados** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:26 pm

Originally posted by rkulaski:

quote:Originally posted by CC's Desperados:

I agree with Glenn's observations here.

Gekko started the run, but he didn't know it was going to happen when he made his selection. After he saw the run, he was still in position to take a quality starter. He choose not to. He made a bad read and choose the wrong position. If he reads the inventory properly, his team would have still be on the right path. He would probably get a 5th round bat in the 6th round. Not sure I follow... hard to say without knowing the construction of the team up to that point. [/QUOTE]Well...I know his contruction.

Gekko · Post by **Gekko** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:40 pm

Originally posted by CC's Desperados:

he was still in position to take a quality starter. He choose not to. well, i'm not going to get into my options at the pick because i still have some drafts to go, but i will say, i wasn't going to jump a guy i didn't like (for my 5th round pick). maybe YOU would, but i won't.

Gekko · Post by **Gekko** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:42 pm

Originally posted by Glenneration X:

He had to know he'd get killed for it.

didn't even factor into the decision making process

Gekko · Post by **Gekko** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:50 pm

Originally posted by CC's Desperados:

He made a bad read and choose the wrong position. If he reads the inventory properly, his team would have still be on the right path. He would probably get a 5th round bat in the 6th round. again, the only "bad read" was to select a guy i didn't like (in the 5th round) only to say "look Ma i got an SP in the 5th" and then screw up the rest of my overall team construction. sorry, ain't happening here. i'm fine with the SP staff i acquired. it has more depth than last year's staff and i ended up with 2 and possibly 3 closers.

i said i would have two different strategies for both main events. and yes, the week one plan was going to be my "risky" team. however, this one incorporates a tad more risk from the SP end than I wanted. This coming weekend will certainly be less risk with a different team construction model.

Gekko · Post by **Gekko** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:38 pm

Originally posted by CC's Desperados:

quote:Originally posted by rkulaski:

quote:Originally posted by CC's Desperados:

I agree with Glenn's observations here.

Gekko started the run, but he didn't know it was going to happen when he made his selection. After he saw the run, he was still in position to take a quality starter. He choose not to. He made a bad read and choose the wrong position. If he reads the inventory properly, his team would have still be on the right path. He would probably get a 5th round bat in the 6th round. Not sure I follow... hard to say without knowing the construction of the team up to that point. [/QUOTE]Well...I know his contruction. [/QUOTE]Shawn, go ahead and PM me your team. I'll take a look and tell you where you made some "bad reads"

CC's Desperados · Post by **CC's Desperados** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:54 am

Originally posted by Gekko:

quote:Originally posted by CC's Desperados:

quote:Originally posted by rkulaski:

quote:Originally posted by CC's Desperados:

I agree with Glenn's observations here.

Gekko started the run, but he didn't know it was going to happen when he made his selection. After he saw the run, he was still in position to take a quality starter. He choose not to. He made a bad read and choose the wrong position. If he reads the inventory properly, his team would have still be on the right path. He would probably get a 5th round bat in the 6th round. Not sure I follow... hard to say without knowing the construction of the team up to that point. [/QUOTE]Well...I know his contruction. [/QUOTE]Shawn, go ahead and PM me your team. I'll take a look and tell you where you made some "bad reads" [/QUOTE]Trust me...I had a lot of decision in draft. For my team to be balanced, I needed a lot of things to flow right for me. In the end, I got out. The team is solid across the board, but it has some risk as I'm sure every team in this contest.

CC's Desperados · Post by **CC's Desperados** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:20 am

Originally posted by Gekko:

quote:Originally posted by CC's Desperados:

He made a bad read and choose the wrong position. If he reads the inventory properly, his team would have still be on the right path. He would probably get a 5th round bat in the 6th round. again, the only "bad read" was to select a guy i didn't like (in the 5th round) only to say "look Ma i got an SP in the 5th" and then screw up the rest of my overall team construction. sorry, ain't happening here. i'm fine with the SP staff i acquired. it has more depth than last year's staff and i ended up with 2 and possibly 3 closers.

i said i would have two different strategies for both main events. and yes, the week one plan was going to be my "risky" team. however, this one incorporates a tad more risk from the SP end than I wanted. This coming weekend will certainly be less risk with a different team construction model. [/QUOTE]You started a whole thread complaining about the pitching run. When you sat down at the draft table, you wanted to start your team with two of the top 25 starters just like the rest of us. You thought you could get two starters between rounds four and six. In a normal draft flow, you would probably be able to get your second starter in the sixth round. When you see the big run after your first pick, you know there are only six or seven solid number two's left on the board. The other nine teams at the other end of the draft have some panic because of what just happened. You have to see those six/seven starters coming off the board before your next pick. If you are ok with dropping down a level in starting pitching, you can select another position. By the tone of this thread, you wanted one of the next group of number two starters.

You claim you are one of the best player in this game. Part of being the best is feeling draft flow. I selected the same player you selected in the 5th round in a 12 teamer in the 6th round and bought him in the auction for $20. In both cases, I knew I was making a mistake. In the 12 teamer, I missed by two picks one of my exceptable number two starters. I gambled and lost. I knew the risk when I made the selection.

In the auction, I couldn't afford that much money for a player at that position. It put my team structure out of line. I also over paid for two other players late in the auction. Those three mistakes cost me a chance at having a good team. The team is ok, but I have three area's where I need upgrades.

[ March 23, 2010, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: CC's Desperados ]

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:37 am

Shawn, that was as refreshing as a Sierra Mist on the drive 'tween Vegas and L.A.