Tsuyoshi Nishioka Is Eligible At 2B

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:14 pm

Originally posted by LONG GONE:

You have the smartest people on these boards telling you he is a ss that is going to play 2nd.

Please someone WAKE UP! If he has been set at 2B only in drafts that have already started, I think even the smartest people on the boards accept he is going to be 2B to start the season, especially if the slow drafts are part of the overall for that format.

We are asking that the eligibility rules be looked at for 2012.

[ December 29, 2010, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: ToddZ ]

Fourslot40 · Post by **Fourslot40** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:27 pm

I agree with Greg. If it turns out that the Twins organization says that this guy isn't the best shortstop on the team in the MLB, why would we make him one until he proves it?

Our leagues are based on MLB statistics. Not Japanese statistics. Japan is AA ball compared to the MLB. The talent level there may not project to what MLB teams envision in the states.

The 'dual' eligibility is a gift. Why not get it right. If he's going to be a 2B, make him a 2B and if he plays SS, he will receive the eligibility the appropriate way.

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:45 pm

Originally posted by Fourslot40:

I agree with Greg. If it turns out that the Twins organization says that this guy isn't the best shortstop on the team in the MLB, why would we make him one until he proves it?

Our leagues are based on MLB statistics. Not Japanese statistics. Japan is AA ball compared to the MLB. The talent level there may not project to what MLB teams envision in the states.

The 'dual' eligibility is a gift. Why not get it right. If he's going to be a 2B, make him a 2B and if he plays SS, he will receive the eligibility the appropriate way. But the rules state that if a guy played SS in AA ball all year, he would be SS eligible in the NFBC, regardless of where he is going to play in the majors.

As written, the commissioner has discretion, so the 2B ruling is fine according to the rules we have in place.

What is now being discussed is a reconsideration of the rule for 2012. As an example, here is the pertinent excerpt from the Tout Wars Constitution, and I believe LABR uses the same rule, with the number of games players possibly differing:

POSTION ELIGIBILITY

On Draft Day: A player may be assigned to any position at which he appeared at least 15 times in the major leagues in the preceding season. If a player did not appear in 15 games at any position, or did not appear the prior season in the majors at all, he qualifies at the one position he played most frequently the prior season in any league(s) he played in. If a player sat out the previous year for any reason, his eligibility will be determined by the last season in which he played professional baseball in the United States.

Designated Hitter is considered a position for these purposes. A player who only qualifies as a DH may only be assigned to the DH position.

In-season major leaguers: In addition to Draft Day eligibility, a player becomes eligible at all other positions at which he appears at least 5 times in the major leagues.

In-season foreign/minor leaguers: A FAABed or promoted player is eligible only at the one position he has played most frequently in the foreign/minor league season to date. Once that player has accumulated major league playing time, he becomes eligible at any other positions at which he appears at least 5 times in the major leagues.

The official source for minor league games played by position will be BaseballReference.com.

CC's Desperados · Post by **CC's Desperados** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:00 pm

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I ran into this today.

Tsuyoshi Nishioka played 91 games at second base and 63 at short. Therefore I believe the 2B is the correct position.

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:28 pm

Originally posted by CC's Desperados:

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I ran into this today.

Tsuyoshi Nishioka played 91 games at second base and 63 at short. Therefore I believe the 2B is the correct position. Shawn, this was in 2005.

He was moved to SS full time after that as a means of less toll on his body.

In fact, he won the Gold Glove at SS in 2010.

[ December 30, 2010, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: ToddZ ]

Edwards Kings · Post by **Edwards Kings** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:50 am

I have a proposed alternative...Can we just go ahead and make him Catcher eligible?

The Mighty Men · Post by **The Mighty Men** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:37 am

So, the thread has now hit 3 pages on a foreign player few have ever even heard of who might gain dual eligibility in 10 games.

I'm pretty sure this designation will not cost anyone a championship. Maybe, just maybe, some people take this hobby a tad bit too seriously.

[ December 31, 2010, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: The Mighty Men ]

CC's Desperados · Post by **CC's Desperados** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:07 am

Originally posted by ToddZ:

quote:Originally posted by CC's Desperados:

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I ran into this today.

Tsuyoshi Nishioka played 91 games at second base and 63 at short. Therefore I believe the 2B is the correct position. Shawn, this was in 2005.

He was moved to SS full time after that as a means of less toll on his body.

In fact, he won the Gold Glove at SS in 2010. [/QUOTE]Todd- where can you find Japanese games played information?

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:32 am

Originally posted by CC's Desperados:

quote:Originally posted by ToddZ:

quote:Originally posted by CC's Desperados:

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I ran into this today.

Tsuyoshi Nishioka played 91 games at second base and 63 at short. Therefore I believe the 2B is the correct position. Shawn, this was in 2005.

He was moved to SS full time after that as a means of less toll on his body.

In fact, he won the Gold Glove at SS in 2010. [/QUOTE]Todd- where can you find Japanese games played information? [/QUOTE]I haven't been able to find it in an "official" form like on a stats page. The only stats page I could find was in Japanese. The 2005 info is here:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullp ... i_Nishioka

At least it is easy to find his stats. Doing this for Cuban players is next to impossible.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:02 am

There was a great site for this, but it is down for now. There's gotta be something else out there.

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:47 am

http://thebaseballcube.com/players/N/Ts ... ioka.shtml

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:53 am

Originally posted by King of Queens:

http://thebaseballcube.com/players/N/Ts ... ioka.shtml joe Blanton will be shaking in his boots by the time I am done.

Those are his stats through 2009, but does not include games played by position.

Here is his stats, again without games played by position through 2010

http://www.japaneseballplayers.com/en/p ... =tnishioka

if it is the same site, the one KJ referenced is being revamped by the owner.

Fourslot40 · Post by **Fourslot40** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:03 am

Originally posted by The Mighty Men:

So, the thread has now hit 3 pages on a foreign player few have ever even heard of who might gain dual eligibility in 10 games.

I'm pretty sure this designation will not cost anyone a championship. Maybe, just maybe, some people take this hobby a tad bit too seriously. Most would say that paying thousands of dollars to play fantasy baseball is crazy.

I read this phrase in the business comic of a newspaper, "Men will play with their business, but will never play with their games".

Go crazy and have fun.

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:18 am

Originally posted by Fourslot40:

quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Men:

So, the thread has now hit 3 pages on a foreign player few have ever even heard of who might gain dual eligibility in 10 games.

I'm pretty sure this designation will not cost anyone a championship. Maybe, just maybe, some people take this hobby a tad bit too seriously. Most would say that paying thousands of dollars to play fantasy baseball is crazy.

I read this phrase in the business comic of a newspaper, "Men will play with their business, but will never play with their games".

Go crazy and have fun. [/QUOTE]I remain skeptical...

Rainiers · Post by **Rainiers** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:40 pm

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

I think there are all kinds of rulings that people can disagree with me on and I have no problem with that. But you have to make a decision that you feel is best for your contest and stick with it.i couldn't agree more that it's your decision where he is elgible.

I couldn't agree more that NFBC needs to make a decsion and stick with it.

In the ongoing slow drafts, the NFBC had decided that he was eligible at ss. For these drafts he should stay there.

I'm not sure whether the owner who drafted him in our $375 slow draft drafted him before or after your post changing his position elgibility.

If that owner is like me, he may not read the forum's posts on a daily basis, and may not even be aware of the change. On our draft board he is still listed as SS, and if that is where he was projected to play that owner will have a legitimate gripe.

Anyways, going forward, if you feel compelled to change position elgibility, I believe it would be fairer and more consitent with past policies if you make a decision and stick with, and not change up in the middle of a draft.

thanks Greg, for allowing us to post these little suggestions..

[ December 31, 2010, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: Rainiers ]

Rainiers · Post by **Rainiers** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:41 am

Now we have a real mess in our $375 Slow Draft.

A different owner has taken Nishioka as a second baseman nine rounds after the first owner took him as a SS.

Nishioka is on the board with two different teams at two different positions.

Greg, there is an old saying, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Have fun cleaning up this one.

[ January 01, 2011, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Rainiers ]

Asumijet · Post by **Asumijet** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:53 am

Originally posted by Rainiers:

quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

I think there are all kinds of rulings that people can disagree with me on and I have no problem with that. But you have to make a decision that you feel is best for your contest and stick with it.i couldn't agree more that it's your decision where he is elgible.

I couldn't agree more that NFBC needs to make a decsion and stick with it.

In the ongoing slow drafts, the NFBC had decided that he was eligible at ss. For these drafts he should stay there.

I'm not sure whether the owner who drafted him in our $375 slow draft drafted him before or after your post changing his position elgibility.

If that owner is like me, he may not read the forum's posts on a daily basis, and may not even be aware of the change. On our draft board he is still listed as SS, and if that is where he was projected to play that owner will have a legitimate gripe.

Anyways, going forward, if you feel compelled to change position elgibility, I believe it would be fairer and more consitent with past policies if you make a decision and stick with, and not change up in the middle of a draft.

thanks Greg, for allowing us to post these little suggestions.. [/QUOTE]Have to concur here. My team drafted him as a SS before the decision was made. My fetish for Japanese not withstanding, he was my starting SS after 23 rounds and I subsequently drafted a backup 2B BEFORE having knowledge of the decision.

I made the same suggestion regarding the Slow Draft Championship and maintaining 2B eligibility for this contest only, but it does not appear a change will be made for those affected. I would have no issue with the decision, if the execution of the decision didn't negatively impact those that support these early games with their $$$.

This issue will come up again, whether this year or next. In retrospect, it would be nice to have a policy or practice that did not penalize patrons when the NFBC make decisions after-the-fact.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:34 am

Originally posted by Rainiers:

Now we have a real mess in our $375 Slow Draft.

A different owner has taken Nishioka as a second baseman nine rounds after the first owner took him as a SS.

Nishioka is on the board with two different teams at two different positions.

Greg, there is an old saying, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Have fun cleaning up this one. For the record, I didn't change my decision on his position after the draft. I did not realize he had two player IDs at SS and 2B. There are going to be some errors in position eligibility just like there was with MDC.com and we announced the eligibility as soon as a problem was found. Jake Fox is not listed correctly here, I was just told, and we'll need to correct that as well. When you see any discrepency, let me know and we'll do all we can to correct it and let all participants know.

Yes, this is a pain with Nishioka. We'll reach out to this owner, but we can't have two owners with the same player. We need to address this ASAP and we will. I'll ask Geoff to look into this and get it right. Thanks for the heads up.

Nishioka is a 2B in the NFBC. It's been announced and holds true. Thanks Robert again for the heads up.

jim.s · Post by **jim.s** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:11 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

quote:Originally posted by Rainiers:

Now we have a real mess in our $375 Slow Draft.

A different owner has taken Nishioka as a second baseman nine rounds after the first owner took him as a SS.

Nishioka is on the board with two different teams at two different positions.

Greg, there is an old saying, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Have fun cleaning up this one. For the record, I didn't change my decision on his position after the draft. I did not realize he had two player IDs at SS and 2B. There are going to be some errors in position eligibility just like there was with MDC.com and we announced the eligibility as soon as a problem was found. Jake Fox is not listed correctly here, I was just told, and we'll need to correct that as well. When you see any discrepency, let me know and we'll do all we can to correct it and let all participants know.

Yes, this is a pain with Nishioka. We'll reach out to this owner, but we can't have two owners with the same player. We need to address this ASAP and we will. I'll ask Geoff to look into this and get it right. Thanks for the heads up.

Nishioka is a 2B in the NFBC. It's been announced and holds true. Thanks Robert again for the heads up. [/QUOTE]First -- I am not debating Greg's decision on 2B -- perfectly proper for him to make that call. Also, mistakes in the software and data happen. However I think a guiding pronciple in these situations should be to avoid retroactive changes unless there are extremely strong reasons to make them. In the draft where he was listed as a SS, he was drafted in good faith at that position (it's not like Pujols was listed as a C or something), all players had the same opportunity to draft him, and other decisions were made assuming that he filled the SS position. He should be left at SS for that league only. Whoever drafted the second version of him should have known there was a problem, so that can be reversed.

This reminds me of the problems with the FA player pool the first couple of weeks of last season. Using my suggestd principle of avoiding retroactive changes, the FA pools should have been left as is (even if they had ineligible minor league players) as long as all players in a league had the same chance. Instead there was real-time fixing going on to the point that it was unclear at the FA deadline who was eligible or not.

I'm using this example not to reopen old issues, but to argue for a principle going forward that when inevible glitches happen, that they be left as-is (as long as all players had same opportunity) and that fixes be made only prospectively (with clear prior notice).

Rainiers · Post by **Rainiers** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:11 pm

Greg,

Sorry, I assumed you knew he was listed as ss at the beginning of the draft.

We still have some issues to try and straighten out, mostly regarding those who drafted him while he was listed as a ss and prior to you changing his elgibility to a 2bman. (like asumijet)

I concur with Jim.s' suggestion, but don't know if you could technically

make it work. It would require different position elgibilities for

the same player in different leagues.

I believe all the picks in the slow drafts are time-stamped.

For anyone who drafted Nishioka prior to your post changing his elgibility to 2b, let them have him at ss.

There is no other totally fair solution. I suppose you could post him as 2b and ss, while that would help those like

Asumijet out, it wouldn't be fair to those who might of drafted him earlier because of the joint position elgibility.

Asumijet has a very legit gripe here. I'd be totally bummed if I werein his shoes. Unlike some others who would go totally nuclear over something like this, he is being pretty soft spoken and I hope he has gotten your attention. You need to try to come up with a fair solution for him, even if the solution suggested here can't work out.

[ January 01, 2011, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: Rainiers ]

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:44 pm

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

quote:Originally posted by Rainiers:

Now we have a real mess in our $375 Slow Draft.

A different owner has taken Nishioka as a second baseman nine rounds after the first owner took him as a SS.

Nishioka is on the board with two different teams at two different positions.

Greg, there is an old saying, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Have fun cleaning up this one. For the record, I didn't change my decision on his position after the draft. I did not realize he had two player IDs at SS and 2B. There are going to be some errors in position eligibility just like there was with MDC.com and we announced the eligibility as soon as a problem was found. Jake Fox is not listed correctly here, I was just told, and we'll need to correct that as well. When you see any discrepency, let me know and we'll do all we can to correct it and let all participants know.

Yes, this is a pain with Nishioka. We'll reach out to this owner, but we can't have two owners with the same player. We need to address this ASAP and we will. I'll ask Geoff to look into this and get it right. Thanks for the heads up.

Nishioka is a 2B in the NFBC. It's been announced and holds true. Thanks Robert again for the heads up. [/QUOTE]It has also happened in league 2, Greg. We are going on the 'honor system' for now. Hopefully, Geoff or someone can pm me tomorrow (Sun,2nd) and make changes.

Rainiers · Post by **Rainiers** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:53 pm

RE: other names with a problem..

I just noticed that Ivan DeJesus (without space) and Ivan De Jesus (with space) are both available in the draft queue...one should go away.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:12 am

Originally posted by Rainiers:

RE: other names with a problem..

I just noticed that Ivan DeJesus (without space) and Ivan De Jesus (with space) are both available in the draft queue...one should go away. Thanks for the heads up. We'll get this one fixed along with Nishioka and Jake Fox today. Let me know if you see anything else and we'll get them corrected on the site ASAP.

BEF · Post by **BEF** » Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:02 pm

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

[QUOTE]Thanks for the heads up. We'll get this one fixed along with Nishioka and Jake Fox today. Let me know if you see anything else and we'll get them corrected on the site ASAP. Lonnie Chisenhall is listed at SS, which he hasn't played since 2008. He should be posted at 3B.