True Grit

[DOUGHBOYS]

I loved watching Ron Hunt.

I know that most of you, especially if under the age of forty, have never seen Ron Hunt, or maybe never heard of him, but, as Vin Scully would say, he was a dandy.

Hunt lead off and played for the Mets when the Mets were setting records for losing games in the 60's.

In the late 60's, he was traded to the Giants. Upon coming to San Francisco, he was told from day one that he would be hitting in the one or two spot in front of Mays and McCovey.

Getting on base at any costs was the objective.



Hunt took his role to heart. He became a master at fouling balls off. He also became a master of getting hit with a pitch. A pitcher knew that if you came inside to Ron Hunt that there would be a runner on for Mays/McCovey.



Here are Hunt's 'numbers' from 1968-74



78/25/41

51/25/47

44/26/29

58/50/41

51/26/29

52/24/19

58/16/19



Now, before thinking that you missed a numerish class, these numbers represent

bb/hbp/k



During these years, here are Hunt's totals for bb/hbp/k

392/192/225

Extraordinary.

He led the league in getting hit by pitch every year during this timeframe.

Not only leading the league in getting hit by pitch every year to get on base, Hunt's mastery at fouling off pitches allowed Mays and McCovey to see almost every pitch in a pitchers repertoire before entering the batters box.



Hunt even wore a wet suit under his uniform. The rubbery surface of the suit prevented major injury while absorbing the punch from the thrown ball.



The 50 times Hunt was hit by a pitch is a post-1900 record.

Hughie Jennings in 1896 was hit 51 times. Jennings was a much better all around player than Hunt. Reveling in his fearlessness at the plate. Once getting hit by pitch three times in the same game. Jennings played before helmets were a notion. Once hit in the noggin, he stayed and completed the game, then collapsed and woke from unconscienceness three days later.



Hunt would later tie Jennings record of getting hit three times in one game. Unless desperate for runs scored, Hunt would have never been an option for fantasy players, even if it were popular in his day. Hunt was a role player and although some players play roles now, the role player is gone from baseball.

We have players who specialize in righty-lefty matchups or vice versa. We have punch, we have judy's.

We have a lot of players with a hero complex. We have few players with grit.

We have few players that will do anything to get on base for a more talented teammate, rather, more players are trying to emulate that more talented teammate.





He said, "Some people give their bodies to science, I gave mine to baseball"

Hunts history of injuries never referenced an injury to his oblique, but you can bet dollars to donuts that he was hit there, and was happy to be on first base.

[whipsaw]

is there a single thing or person you like from post-1990?

[rockitsauce]

He LOVES Yuniesky Maya



Personally I LOVE reading his posts about players I've never heard of. Joe Garigiola infrequently sits up in the booth w/ Daron Sutton calling DBack games. Once Joe remarked that we was speaking w/ a "young" man (about 40) who'd never seen Mays, Clemente, Bench, several others and he was flabbergasted.



I am 40 and never saw any of those guys play except in highlight reels. I vaguely recall Bench, but my earliest baseball memories are Mr. October, Reggie Jackson belting 3 HR in WS game, the Reggie bar, Billy Martin fighting w/ umpires, etc (my Grandfather was a Yankee fan)



Luckily my mom steered me towards the light and I became a fan of the greatest sports city in the world - PHILADELPHIA

[viper]

keep us AARP types happy. Your best stories involve those players the under-40 crowd do not know. Even your current signature quotes one of the players I grew up with but many here never saw - Ted Kluszewski. I'm proud to say I have been at games that featured Mantle, Maris, Aaron, Mathews, Burdette, Spahn, Koufax and Drysdale.

[Navel Lint]

Originally posted by whipsaw:

is there a single thing or person you like from post-1990? He like Matt Cain.



It reminds him of the way Juan Marichal used to wear his stirrups back in the 60's.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Originally posted by whipsaw:

is there a single thing or person you like from post-1990? I love watching a Red Sox-Yankee series. There is something more heightened and intense when these two teams play. It used to be felt when the Giants played the Dodgers, now, the Red Sox-Yankees matchup is king.



I don't root for one team over another and I thank God that Jorge Posada does not catch during one of these games anymore. How many times does a catcher need to talk to a pitcher. I wanted to HIT, HIT Jorge!



When these two teams do get together, I always get the feeling that one player wants to win more than the other 49 players combined.

Dustin Pedroia.

You asked for a post-90's player, but Pedroia is a 50's player playing in 2011.

If playing fantasy baseball, there would be other second basemen I'd select before Pedroia. But, if I wanted to win a pennant as a Manager in baseball, give me Dustin Pedroia.



And since this may hijack the Ron Hunt portion of our thread... Hunt had the same tenacity as Pedroia. We naturally root for underdogs, Pedroia and Hunt will never be the coverboys for baseball, though Pedroia has won an MVP. Baseball players are versed in saying the right 'team' things during an interview, Hunt and Pedroia show(ed) it on the field.



Um, also, I love my grandkids, the NFBC, long walks on the beach, and Doritos, but I think the ocean and Doritos came after 1990.

[whipsaw]

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

quote:Originally posted by whipsaw:

is there a single thing or person you like from post-1990? I love watching a Red Sox-Yankee series. There is something more heightened and intense when these two teams play. It used to be felt when the Giants played the Dodgers, now, the Red Sox-Yankees matchup is king.



I don't root for one team over another and I thank God that Jorge Posada does not catch during one of these games anymore. How many times does a catcher need to talk to a pitcher. I wanted to HIT, HIT Jorge!



When these two teams do get together, I always get the feeling that one player wants to win more than the other 49 players combined.

Dustin Pedroia.

You asked for a post-90's player, but Pedroia is a 50's player playing in 2011.

If playing fantasy baseball, there would be other second basemen I'd select before Pedroia. But, if I wanted to win a pennant as a Manager in baseball, give me Dustin Pedroia.



And since this may hijack the Ron Hunt portion of our thread... Hunt had the same tenacity as Pedroia. We naturally root for underdogs, Pedroia and Hunt will never be the coverboys for baseball, though Pedroia has won an MVP. Baseball players are versed in saying the right 'team' things during an interview, Hunt and Pedroia show(ed) it on the field.



Um, also, I love my grandkids, the NFBC, long walks on the beach, and Doritos, but I think the ocean and Doritos came after 1990. [/QUOTE]What exactly is a "50's player"? What are the characteristics? The good and bad?



You also love commas, but that's an invention that predates us all.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Originally posted by rockitsauce:

He LOVES Yuniesky Maya



Personally I LOVE reading his posts about players I've never heard of. Joe Garigiola infrequently sits up in the booth w/ Daron Sutton calling DBack games. Once Joe remarked that we was speaking w/ a "young" man (about 40) who'd never seen Mays, Clemente, Bench, several others and he was flabbergasted.



I am 40 and never saw any of those guys play except in highlight reels. I vaguely recall Bench, but my earliest baseball memories are Mr. October, Reggie Jackson belting 3 HR in WS game, the Reggie bar, Billy Martin fighting w/ umpires, etc (my Grandfather was a Yankee fan)



Luckily my mom steered me towards the light and I became a fan of the greatest sports city in the world - PHILADELPHIA When I think of Maya, I think of five bags of Doritos, bought, paid for, and then whisked away by the trash guy, before I get one bite.



I know that most of us think about our Main Event team more than the others, and rightfully so.

But, as for a chat board or flat out trash talking during a draft, nothing comes close to the contract leagues. And, nothing makes you think more about a draft than the contract drafts. I said it last year, that draft is chess compared to other drafts checkers.

Kudo's to KJ for not only coming up with the idea, but also getting together 15 guys that can dish it and take it.

If there are any openings this year, I strongly recommend trying it.



[ June 07, 2011, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: DOUGHBOYS ]

[Chest Rockwell]

Originally posted by whipsaw:

quote:Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

quote:Originally posted by whipsaw:

is there a single thing or person you like from post-1990? I love watching a Red Sox-Yankee series. There is something more heightened and intense when these two teams play. It used to be felt when the Giants played the Dodgers, now, the Red Sox-Yankees matchup is king.



I don't root for one team over another and I thank God that Jorge Posada does not catch during one of these games anymore. How many times does a catcher need to talk to a pitcher. I wanted to HIT, HIT Jorge!



When these two teams do get together, I always get the feeling that one player wants to win more than the other 49 players combined.

Dustin Pedroia.

You asked for a post-90's player, but Pedroia is a 50's player playing in 2011.

If playing fantasy baseball, there would be other second basemen I'd select before Pedroia. But, if I wanted to win a pennant as a Manager in baseball, give me Dustin Pedroia.



And since this may hijack the Ron Hunt portion of our thread... Hunt had the same tenacity as Pedroia. We naturally root for underdogs, Pedroia and Hunt will never be the coverboys for baseball, though Pedroia has won an MVP. Baseball players are versed in saying the right 'team' things during an interview, Hunt and Pedroia show(ed) it on the field.



Um, also, I love my grandkids, the NFBC, long walks on the beach, and Doritos, but I think the ocean and Doritos came after 1990. [/QUOTE]What exactly is a "50's player"? What are the characteristics? The good and bad?



You also love commas, but that's an invention that predates us all. [/QUOTE]I, do, not, like, jackoffs.

I, love, Eric, Hosmer, and, I, am, glad, I, spent, big, on, him, in, Faab.

[rockitsauce]

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

When I think of Maya, I think of five bags of Doritos, bought, paid for, and then whisked away by the trash guy, before I get one bite.



I know that most of us think about our Main Event team more than the others, and rightfully so.

But, as for a chat board or flat out trash talking during a draft, nothing comes close to the contract leagues. And, nothing makes you think more about a draft than the contract drafts. I said it last year, that draft is chess compared to other drafts checkers.

Kudo's to KJ for not only coming up with the idea, but also getting together 15 guys that can dish it and take it.

If there are any openings this year, I strongly recommend trying it. [/QB]I was going to mention DORITOS! but thought they had to predate 1990



And yes Doughster is rt, chess n checkers, thanks to KJ and may I say rt now team rockit would like another shot next yr (of getting my ass kicked by the best of the best)....it's still alot of fun.



Seriously y'all know Childs is a 1st ballot HOF'er but his 2 low budget teams in these salary leagues are competing w/ guys who out spent him by $2000, how do they say it up 'dere in Bahstaan - he's wicked good!

[rockitsauce]

Originally posted by whipsaw:



You also love commas, but that's an invention that predates us all. [/QB]whaddya an english teacher? we could use ya in Tucson

[DOUGHBOYS]

Originally posted by whipsaw:

Whatt exactly is a "50's player"? What are the characteristics? The good and bad?



You also love commas, but that's an invention that predates us all. I thought about just letting this go. Your questions are ambiguous. Your comment about comma's, nitpicky.

Your a last word type of guy, so I expect either more questions or another comment that will be a little derogatory. I make a lot of posts and I won't please everybody. As our grandson says, "Whatever"

So here goes, and sorry, there will be comma's....



The 50's player had few, if any, friends on other teams. He played for his owner, his city, his teammates.

He didn't play for next year's contract. Next years contract was going to look a lot like this year's contract. Only superstars got substantial pay raises.



Most of his teammates would be there for a long time. There was no free agency. The 50's player was bound to come back to that team. The sense of togetherness aided in making teamwork paramount.



Although today's player says all the right things about doing what is best for his team and winning, few really mean it.

At the end of the season, these players go home to a nicer abode than most of us and have a lifestyle that would take lottery winnings for us to enjoy.

They are not driven by winning or team now, as much as next years contract. The team they are on, may not pay as much as another team next year.



In the 50's, a players salary was significantly higher with a trip to the World Series. Some players could make close to what they made for the whole year with a World Series share of money.



These players would do whatever it took to win. Most lived the middle class way of life. The superstar lived a different lifestyle. They always will. But, the common players carrot under their nose was getting to the World Series. It was a boon to his family, his teammates, his organization.

Now, the World Series share is just slightly more than an afterthought for most players.



During the 50's, if caught talking with a player from another team, it was called fraternizing, now, it's friendly conversation. Most of the players now share the same agents, same friends, but above all, they share the same union.

The union is the players umbrella. In the 50's when a player said 'we', you knew he was talking about his team. Now, 'we' can be a team or all players in general.



How much has changed?

Can you imagine a pitcher even talking to a batter as he digs in at the plate?

When a batter spent too much time digging in against Bob Gibson, Gibson suggested that he keep on digging till it was six feet.

Sometimes, there was pure hatred for the other uniform. After Johnny Roseboro was struck over the head by Juan Marichal's bat, Willie Mays put his arms around Roseboro and led him away from danger.

Mays would take some heat for helping a Dodger player even though humanely, it was the right thing to do.



There was an animosity for the opposing team. The rivals were real. The Giants really did hate the Dodgers and the Dodgers really did hate the Giants.

Now, even though intense on the field, Some members of the Red Sox and Yankees will 'hang out' during the off season. Unheard of during the 50's.



In the 50's, a catcher could be pancaked. He had what the runner needed.

Home plate.

The catcher knew it, the runner knew it. No matter the outcome, the newspapers of the day would not be asking about rule changes.

It was the way the game was played.



This may sound like an endictment of todays game.

It isn't.

Times have changed. Players are getting paid what they're worth. But in getting paid what they're worth, they've lost the grit that players in the 50's had.



[ June 09, 2011, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: DOUGHBOYS ]

[Sebadiah23]

I have nothing against old-time baseball- in fact I love it, but a lot of what you are saying feels like it's what you are hoping rings true, so that old-time baseball is "better".



Without examples, I'm saying nothing, so here goes:



-Jose Bautista gets mad because he popped up instead of homering. The pitcher, who has a sense of pride in himself and his team, and isn't just playing for a paycheck, get's really pissed off and chastises Jose as rounds the bases. Just like Dallas Braden did with Arod after he ran over "his" mound.



-Game-winning hits, especially walk-offs, result in way, way more emotion from a group of 25 adults than you would expect from guys waiting for a game to end. If it's staged, then they are extremely good actors.



-Whether it's limited to just a few or not, guys like Chipper Jones bitch out their teammates for not playing with pain. If he didn't care about winning or his team, he wouldn't do it. Carlos Zambrano did this recently as well, in a different context.



-Whether it's still due to roid-rage or not, we continue to have hitters getting beaned, and pitchers retaliating. Again, if they only cared about their ERA and not the "code" of their team, they simply wouldn't do it.



-it's a shame that money can "de-motivate" a player once they get set for life, but what's so great about money as a motivator anyway? If salaries were more fixed long ago, that's more akin to somebody like Arod who gets paid the same now no matter what he does. Its sounds a lot like a guy knowing he's only get a 4% raise no matter what he does (leading to fixed World Series games, snap). Anyway, that point is kind of going around in a circular reference. It is open to so much interpretation.



Just an opinion. Opinions are opinions, no more, no less.



[ June 11, 2011, 04:42 AM: Message edited by: Sebadiah23 ]

[DOUGHBOYS]

I hear you.

Most men are instilled with the desire to be the best at what we do.

It is what makes sports, sports.

Game winning 'gather arounds' have become old. Now, I don't think it's 25 men being happy at winning, more like a practiced handshake. These players are obligated to come out to home plate to do it now. They are happy for the guy with the game winning hit. And granted, they are happy to win, but they are no more happier than if they had won an 8-1 game, unless it is more crucial than other games.



John Smoltz called Chipper out earlier for not playing. Now, Chipper calls Heyward out. And both times, the press lets us know about it.

If it were back in the day, most of Heyward's teammates would be giving him the cold shoulder, not just one guy talking to the press. The message would be a lot clearer to Heyward.



There still is a 'code' in baseball. Dallas Braden and Jose Bautista episodes will crop up now and again. There will also be hit batsmen, such as the Yankees-Red Sox series, as there should. A pitcher still has to protect his teammates. All part of the code.



Was baseball better in the 50's?

No.

It was just different.

Todays game is not better either. Each have their own values. Each their own characteristics.

Todays athlete knows a lot more about his body and knows how to make himself a better ballplayer. Most players in the off season work out in gyms or have workout regimens.

Most players in the 50's would winter trying to make more money at home.



Todays game has more medical knowledge, which has both helped and hindered the game. Before this 'knowledge', a player could 'throw till 'his arm fell off'' or play through an injury, not because he was tougher, but because he didn't know any better.



The medical no-how (on purpose) today inhibits players. It's not that today's player is any less tougher than those of yesteryear. Now, they have doctors and agents who have their ear first, not teammates.



Players and circumstances have changed, to be sure.

But, baseball itself stands the test of time. It is still the best game in the world. Whether we are watching it in the 50's or the 2010's, for me,there is nothing like entering that hole in the Stadium and seeing that baseball field lay before me..

[GoodnGodless]

Great post Dough. As a 9 or 10 year old Mets Fan Ron Hunt was one of my heroes though at the time he played for the Expos. He swung his body into a pitch the way Ichiro does with his bat and against the likes of Nolan Ryan and others. Never knew he wore a wet suit. Brilliant!



Wish they never named it the Hall of Fame. There should be room for celebrating baseball history with notable players like hunt. And in terms of comparing different decades - why not asterisk everyone - Ruth for not competing against the Negro Leagues for example. It should be about history not about fame. So lets include the likes of a guy like Ron Hunt for doing what he did in his era and while where at it there is absolutely no reason to exclude the likes of Rose (who I hate for being an ass whole to Buddy Harrelson) , Bonds (who I dislike for things he said about Griffey and was actually right about "injury prone he said while he was still with the M's) and Clemmens (who I hate for being who he is - and for his Cheney moment when he mistook a bat for a ball and hurled it at Piazza)



Anyway thanks for the post on Hunt, one of my boyhood heroes.