play at home plate

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:35 pm

For anyone that thinks running into the catcher isn't a necessary option for baserunners, look at Ruggiano sliding around the Tigers catcher in what would have been the tying run in the 7th inning.

Ruggiano beat the throw easily - if he runs into the catcher he scores, the ball goes to the wall which scores another run giving the Rays a 2-1 lead - with another runner at 3rd. Instead, he's called out in what turns out to be a double play and the Rays still trail 1-0.

I'm sure I don't see even 5% of the innings played and this is the 3rd or 4th time I've seen a runner thrown out at home when he could've been safe at a critical point since the Posey injury. It really is an integral part of the game that can make or break a team's season.

rockitsauce · Post by **rockitsauce** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:47 pm

he was safe doing what he did...replays showed the ump got the call wrong.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:29 am

Originally posted by rockitsauce:

he was safe doing what he did...replays showed the ump got the call wrong. On the camera angle from the 3b line it wasn't clear, he could've been tagged on the back foot.

Regardless, ump can't screw up if catcher doesn't even get the ball - they lost the game because of that play.

rockitsauce · Post by **rockitsauce** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:42 am

he was 100% w/out a doubt safe, replays confirmed this, everyone who saw it acknowledges as much.

I understand you're point, but I disagree. Baseball doesn't need to turn into football or hockey at home plate. It would still be the greatest game around, even w/out trying to make sure catchers end up like Dave Duerson.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:13 pm

Originally posted by rockitsauce:

he was 100% w/out a doubt safe, replays confirmed this, everyone who saw it acknowledges as much.

I understand you're point, but I disagree. Baseball doesn't need to turn into football or hockey at home plate. It would still be the greatest game around, even w/out trying to make sure catchers end up like Dave Duerson. I was watching the game - they showed replays over and over - from 2 angles he looked clearly safe ... from the third you can't tell if the catcher swiped his back foot - which by the way if you look at what the umpire was saying during the argument, that was what he claimed he saw, and the reason he called him out.

I don't think keeping the rule as it has been for fifty or so years is turning the game into football. I want baseball to remain baseball, rather than implementing rule changes that start taking it in the direction of becoming T-ball.

Fourslot40 · Post by **Fourslot40** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:24 pm

I agree KJ. If you polled the catchers in the league, I would guarantee that a majority would want to keep the rule as it is as well. Catchers prepare for this. There is a particular pride factor in the position and collisions are part of that.

One other note as well. Scott Cousins did what he was supposed to do. If you want to stay in this game and earn the respect of the clubhouse, you better do what it takes to win at all costs.

rockitsauce · Post by **rockitsauce** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:01 pm

Originally posted by Fourslot40:

I agree KJ. If you polled the catchers in the league, I would guarantee that a majority would want to keep the rule as it is as well. Catchers prepare for this. There is a particular pride factor in the position and collisions are part of that.

One other note as well. Scott Cousins did what he was supposed to do. If you want to stay in this game and earn the respect of the clubhouse, you better do what it takes to win at all costs. BS. If I was as smart as KJ (not in this lifetime) I'd know how to embed a video, link, whatever....the guys from MLB network said it best for me in 1 min 44 sec's (w/ regard to Posey injury)...basically it was totally unecessary & avoidable.

Cousins was hell bent to crush Posey from the moment the ball was caught. Buster was NOT clogging the basepath, (as Bench had claimed) but had allowed the runner a clear path to the left side of homeplate. He was in front (towards pitchers mound) when he attempted to catch the ball.

Cousins could have EASILY slid right on past him, no collision needed to WIN the game.

It isn't effing tball to open a discussion on protecting these athletes. Leather helmets had their time too.

Fourslot40 · Post by **Fourslot40** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:13 pm

If I remember correctly, Infante was on first base at the time and advanced to second on the play. He doesn't advance to second if Posey isn't collided with. Again, do what it takes to win at all costs. I'm sorry that Posey was injured, but it was a great play by Cousins and a play that contributed to a run and an advanced runner in scoring position.

Anyone who has played the game at a higher level would agree that this was a play that is expected of a teammate. Any catcher would agree the same.

[ June 14, 2011, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: Fourslot40 ]

DiamondKing · Post by **DiamondKing** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:02 pm

I am firmly in the camp of letting the rules stay the same.But,what is the proposed answer here?Only allowed to slide at home?If so what about the catcher wearing all of the armor?Is he allowed to block the plate?Those shingaurds hurt.Are we going to call a player out or suspend him for standing up into home?Sounds like a bit of sports talk hogwash.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:05 pm

Originally posted by rockitsauce:

[QUOTE]...basically it was totally unecessary & avoidable. In hindsight it may have been avoidable, but a guy looking at a replay with a birdseye view is not a baserunner. If I'm coming around 3rd halfway to home I'm thinking about what I'm going to do if it looks like it will be a close play. I can't see the ball so I need to anticipate based on how and where the ball was hit, and how the catcher is positioned.

Even if the catcher isn't totally blocking the plate, I know he can slide in front of me at the last second to block the plate ... and if I wait that long to decide it's too late to knock him over. Probably 15-20 feet away I've got to make a final decision, before I even see the ball.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:10 pm

and another thing ... Verlander is just dominating the Indians tonight, going for his his second no-hitter of the season with one out in the eighth inning ... hope I don't jinx him.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:11 pm

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

and another thing ... Verlander is just dominating the Indians tonight, going for his his second no-hitter of the season with one out in the eighth inning ... hope I don't jinx him.

Next pitch, base hit.

No wonder baseball players are superstitious.

Fourslot40 · Post by **Fourslot40** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:12 pm

It really is Diamond King. The only answer is to tell catchers is that they can't block the plate. Umpires are allowed to make judgment calls on blocked bags in the infield. They can deem a runner safe if there is obstruction. The only thing I can see them do is to initiate the same judgment at the plate.

Here's the other issue. If you initiate such a rule, you then have to change the baselines. Runners coming from third can come as wide as they need. This is not the case at the other bags.

The armor is necessary to block baseballs and provide protection for foulballs. You can't decrease that because of collisions.

This is a bigger issue amongst GM's and fans rather than players. The players are fine with the way it is now. Would we be talking about this if it were a backup catcher that was hurt? Probably not. Posey would have wanted his runner to do the same.

Fourslot40 · Post by **Fourslot40** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:23 pm

[ June 14, 2011, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: Fourslot40 ]

DiamondKing · Post by **DiamondKing** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:07 pm

Originally posted by Fourslot40:

It really is Diamond King. The only answer is to tell catchers is that they can't block the plate. Umpires are allowed to make judgment calls on blocked bags in the infield. They can deem a runner safe if there is obstruction. The only thing I can see them do is to initiate the same judgment at the plate.

Here's the other issue. If you initiate such a rule, you then have to change the baselines. Runners coming from third can come as wide as they need. This is not the case at the other bags.

The armor is necessary to block baseballs and provide protection for foulballs. You can't decrease that because of collisions.

This is a bigger issue amongst GM's and fans rather than players. The players are fine with the way it is now. Would we be talking about this if it were a backup catcher that was hurt? Probably not. Posey would have wanted his runner to do the same. I can not remember an infielder getting called for obstruction when they held the ball.As a point of fact rule 2.00 Obstruction is the act of a fielder who,while NOT in possession of the ball and not in the act of fielding the ball,impedes the progress of any runner.

rockitsauce · Post by **rockitsauce** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:58 pm

I'm not for doing anything hasty, just think it might be time to at least talk about ways to protect the most vulnerable position in baseball.

KJ, I p/u Ruggiano in that 2nd chance lge....have a sneaky feelin' that 1 run is gonna come back to MEAN somethin'

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:55 pm

Originally posted by rockitsauce:

I'm not for doing anything hasty, just think it might be time to at least talk about ways to protect the most vulnerable position in baseball.

KJ, I p/u Ruggiano in that 2nd chance lge....have a sneaky feelin' that 1 run is gonna come back to MEAN somethin'

Nice grab, I picked him up in a lot of lges but I have 6 solid OFers in the mid-season so I passed on him there.

Fourslot40 · Post by **Fourslot40** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:28 am

Originally posted by DiamondKing:

quote:Originally posted by Fourslot40:

It really is Diamond King. The only answer is to tell catchers is that they can't block the plate. Umpires are allowed to make judgment calls on blocked bags in the infield. They can deem a runner safe if there is obstruction. The only thing I can see them do is to initiate the same judgment at the plate.

Here's the other issue. If you initiate such a rule, you then have to change the baselines. Runners coming from third can come as wide as they need. This is not the case at the other bags.

The armor is necessary to block baseballs and provide protection for foulballs. You can't decrease that because of collisions.

This is a bigger issue amongst GM's and fans rather than players. The players are fine with the way it is now. Would we be talking about this if it were a backup catcher that was hurt? Probably not. Posey would have wanted his runner to do the same. I can not remember an infielder getting called for obstruction when they held the ball.As a point of fact rule 2.00 Obstruction is the act of a fielder who,while NOT in possession of the ball and not in the act of fielding the ball,impedes the progress of any runner. [/QUOTE]I was referring to players blocking the bag without the ball.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:20 am

Some want to change the rule to protect catchers.

The Buster Posey rule, as it were

Ok, so they make a rule that bowling over a catcher is not allowed.

Let's say that Derek Jeter gets his leg broken at 2b because of an oncoming runner trying to break up a double play.

A rule is in place that a player cannot slide into a fielder after he is out.

The Derek Jeter rule.

Then, years later, another superstar is hurt on a slide, and slides themselves are questioned.

I know most are scoffing at the notion, but years ago, the thought of not breaking through a catcher to score that important run wouldn't have been a thought either.

Running through a catcher, breaking up a double play, and hard slides are all a part of baseball.

Rules against these acts would be just another part of the wussification of America.

Baseball doesn't need changed.

If anything needs changed, it is the minds of those that think more rules are necessary for baseball.

Posey had the wrong foot work.

He turned his upper body towards Cousins, in an effort to grab the ball.

Cousins had a part of the plate, but had already decided that going through Posey was the best option.

A perfect storm for an injury.

Brian Sabaen railed against Scott Cousins. Implied that it was a dirty play and blah, blah, blah. But the players playing the game, the players that rule changers themselves are trying to protect feel he has done nothing wrong. Both, by their words and by their actions.

Scott Cousins has been hit with zero pitches this year.

There have been few rule changes on the field over the years. None are needed.

It's a beautiful game.

Take a look at a Little League game.

The 'rules' have become laughable. Most in the name of protecting our kids.

Speaking for kids and Major League players-

'C'mon, just let 'em play!'

[ June 15, 2011, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: DOUGHBOYS ]

rockitsauce · Post by **rockitsauce** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:08 pm

Apparently if you're for the prevention of unnecessary injuries to catchers you're also for the "wussification of America"....I did not know that.

There was nothing wrong w/ Posey's positioning, Cousins had decided he was going to initiate a collision w/ him and that was that. Fair play, just stupid and avoidable for sure.

I can understand Sabean's reaction. He loses his teams' best player (and who knows long term how this affects him) b/c some benchwarmer decides to go NHL on the guy. I don't condone the violent threats made Cousins's way, thats even more idiotic. He did what he thought was necessary to score & win the game.

The problem is that THAT is allowed in the 1st place. Sorry, no need. It's tired and the argument about collisions at 2B is not a reasonable comparison. (W/ regard to breaking up DP's some of these guys are so far out of the basepath that they should be called out for that.)

If I was a GM I'd do the same thing as Billy Beane. Keeping my catcher healthy for the whole season trumps any single run.

swampass · Post by **swampass** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:39 pm

enough of the PC BS! its bad enough we all deal with it on a daily basis in real life.. the point is.. its a game. injuries will happen no matter what rules are in place.

the comparisons rockit are to put things in perspective, but apparently your perspective trumps the rest of us. you're right and we are wrong. you smell like roses and we smell like sh$t. yeah. we get it.

i think the saying give them an inch and they will take a mile is lost on you. the point is.. where do you stop to make things safe? put the ball on a tee? no more pitching? how about encase the entire playing surface in all sports arenas to prevent fan injury? oh and no hot dogs.. only cold ones cause the hot ones can burn your mouth!

this convo is old. can we delete this thread? because sometimes some people just wont let things go. they always have to be right and they always have to have the last word.

so stop being a WEINER... and let it go... just like posey should have.

rockitsauce · Post by **rockitsauce** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:30 pm

Originally posted by swampass:

enough of the PC BS! its bad enough we all deal with it on a daily basis in real life.. the point is.. its a game. injuries will happen no matter what rules are in place.

the comparisons rockit are to put things in perspective, but apparently your perspective trumps the rest of us. you're right and we are wrong. you smell like roses and we smell like sh$t. yeah. we get it.

i think the saying give them an inch and they will take a mile is lost on you. the point is.. where do you stop to make things safe? put the ball on a tee? no more pitching? how about encase the entire playing surface in all sports arenas to prevent fan injury? oh and no hot dogs.. only cold ones cause the hot ones can burn your mouth!

this convo is old. can we delete this thread? because sometimes some people just wont let things go. they always have to be right and they always have to have the last word.

so stop being a WEINER... and let it go... just like posey should have. Oh, my opinion differs from yours, so I should just shut up since it's obvious to YOU how the game should be played, no need for anyone else to have an opinion. Who's "we"? You & ur buddies that dress up like an indian, construction worker, cop...real macho men I guess, eh?

The comparisons are only needed when you're argument is weak. Just b/c you do X, doesn't mean that you will then do Y. Coming up w/ a solution to prevent avoidable injuries at homeplate doesn't turn baseball into t-ball.

I guess my membership to the He-Man Woman haters club must've expired.

GoodnGodless · Post by **GoodnGodless** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:56 pm

I get Rockit's argument but why should catchers own the plate? Maybe if a runner totals a catcher before he has the ball the runner is out and if the catcher blocks the plate by preventing the runner to slide into the home prior to having possession of the ball and/or giving a lane to the runner then the runner is safe? I don't know. It's definitely NOT about PC. Rockit has a valid point.

What surprises me is that this has not been worked out between the players themselves in the age of free agency and union solidarity where at least I noticed retaliation by a pitcher for hitting a teammate was reduced throwing behind the opposing players butt instead of his head long before MLB made the umps enforce ridiculous warnings.

rockitsauce · Post by **rockitsauce** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:54 pm

I am NOT trying to suggest that my opinion is right and any opposing viewpoints are false. If you were to look back (earlier in this thread) I suggested TALKING about ways to protect catchers.

I guess just talking about change upsets Bob Costas & the gang. Well I hate the DH & interleague too, but its where the $ is, and that is all that has ever mattered.

Cobb · Post by **Cobb** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:01 pm

Originally posted by rockitsauce:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by swampass:

enough of the PC BS! its bad enough we all deal with it on a daily basis in real life.. the point is.. its a game. injuries will happen no matter what rules are in place.

the comparisons rockit are to put things in perspective, but apparently your perspective trumps the rest of us. you're right and we are wrong. you smell like roses and we smell like sh$t. yeah. we get it.

i think the saying give them an inch and they will take a mile is lost on you. the point is.. where do you stop to make things safe? put the ball on a tee? no more pitching? how about encase the entire playing surface in all sports arenas to prevent fan injury? oh and no hot dogs.. only cold ones cause the hot ones can burn your mouth!

this convo is old. can we delete this thread? because sometimes some people just wont let things go. they always have to be right and they always have to have the last word.

so stop being a WEINER... and let it go... just like posey should have. Oh, my opinion differs from yours, so I should just shut up since it's obvious to YOU how the game should be played, no need for anyone else to have an opinion. Who's "we"? You & ur buddies that dress up like an indian, construction worker, cop...real macho men I guess, eh?

The comparisons are only needed when you're argument is weak. Just b/c you do X, doesn't mean that you will then do Y. Coming up w/ a solution to prevent avoidable injuries at homeplate doesn't turn baseball into t-ball.

I guess my membership to the He-Man Woman haters club must've expired. [/QUOTE

LOL, that's pretty funny.

You had that coming to you swampass. I can't stand when somebody disagrees with somebody else on a 'message board' and then get personal for no reason.

Take a lesson from class acts on here and just give your opinion, no need to get personal...