Pitchers coming off DL, Peavy and Beachy

Raiders · Post by **Raiders** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:41 am

This has probably been addressed countless times before, but maybe someone can clarify for me.

Peavy and Beachy are both listed on the DL as of Tuesday afternoon. They are scheduled to pitch on Wednesday. Many teams have them in their lineups this week expecting them to pitch.

I've noticed that in a few of my leagues, they are in team's lineups for Monday through Thursday only. In those same leagues, they have already been removed from this coming Friday through Sunday lineups since they are presently on the DL. So, for example, someone will have Peavy pitch for them on Wednesday but have someone else pitch over the weekend instead of Peavy. The system allows it.

Has anyone commented on this before? It seems weird to me since in my example Peavy (assuming he does pitch on Wednesday) won't be on the DL on Friday.

Hells Satans · Post by **Hells Satans** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:52 am

It definitely should not be allowed, but I can understand why the software wouldn't be equipped to deal with it.

Cocktails and Dreams · Post by **Cocktails and Dreams** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:55 am

Feel kind of sleezy making that move. Hadn't even thought about it until the post. Wish something could be done to disallow this.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:56 am

I see nothing wrong with it, just a quirky baseball thing like catcher's interference. Might happen a couple times a season.

[ June 21, 2011, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

Gekko · Post by **Gekko** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:12 am

greg made a post about this a year ago or two and said that the moves were not allowed and that greg/tom would manually monitor/enforce it.

is this now being allowed?

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:25 am

Originally posted by Gekko:

greg made a post about this a year ago or two and said that the moves were not allowed and that greg/tom would manually monitor/enforce it.

is this now being allowed? GG, I recall Greg discussing a potential change if the software allowed for it, but the only rule change was allowing pitcher swaps over the final 2 weeks.

11. Lineup submission

Team owners also are allowed to remove a pitcher (or pitchers) who is officially on the DL from their starting lineup and replace him with a pitcher from their reserve roster on Fridays.

Those decisions will have to be made by 5 minutes before the scheduled start time of the first game of the day if those pitchers are involved in an early game or by 6:55 pm ET for all teams involved in night games.

Pitchers must officially be on Major League Baseball's DL list according to NFBC by 12:01 AM ET on Friday for this move (or moves) to take effect for the weekend games.

However, during the last two weeks of the regular season only, we will allow owners to replace any pitchers in their starting lineup with reserves on Friday, just like hitters. But this applies ONLY to the last two weeks of the season.

Cocktails and Dreams · Post by **Cocktails and Dreams** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:36 am

I respectfully disagree KJ, aside from the quirky part. Just because it doesn't happen very often, doesn't mean it should be allowed. It is not at all what the rule is designed for. I frankly don't think that rule needs to be in place in the first placel, but if it is, it should probably be only guys on the DL Friday can be moved out. Not a huge deal, but a bit annoying if allowed. Seems that rule should be taken out of play next year. Too many ways being figured out to take advantage of it, which is not the intent of it.

Gekko · Post by **Gekko** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:44 am

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

GG, I recall Greg discussing a potential change if the software allowed for it, but the only rule change was allowing pitcher swaps over the final 2 weeks.

i recall him specifically saying they were manually going to monitor/enforce the rule since the software didn't have the functionality.

PS - I sent Greg an email about this subject. Bottom line is if your competitors are utilizing this strategy, it would make "strategic sense" for everyone to do so.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:44 am

Originally posted by Cocktails and Dreams:

I respectfully disagree KJ, aside from the quirky part. Just because it doesn't happen very often, doesn't mean it should be allowed. It is not at all what the rule is designed for. I frankly don't think that rule needs to be in place in the first placel, but if it is, it should probably be only guys on the DL Friday can be moved out. Not a huge deal, but a bit annoying if allowed. Seems that rule should be taken out of play next year. Too many ways being figured out to take advantage of it, which is not the intent of it. This debate has been around for a few years and you are not alone in disliking it Chad. I have no problem with it being allowed, nor would I have a problem with it not being allowed so long as that is stated in the rules.

The system limitation also is used by most players to avoid bad matchups from 2-start pitchers, which also was not its intent. But there's nothing in the rules against it, and it is used routinely.

[ June 21, 2011, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:48 am

Originally posted by Gekko:

quote:Originally posted by KJ Duke:

GG, I recall Greg discussing a potential change if the software allowed for it, but the only rule change was allowing pitcher swaps over the final 2 weeks.

i recall him specifically saying they were manually going to monitor/enforce the rule since the software didn't have the functionality.

PS - I sent Greg an email about this subject. Bottom line is if your competitors are utilizing this strategy, it would make "strategic sense" for everyone to do so. [/QUOTE]Trouble is, there isn't a rule to enforce Mark. And I fully agree on your PS.

Gekko · Post by **Gekko** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:49 am

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

Trouble is, there isn't a rule to enforce Mark. And I fully agree on your PS. you mean MB rules don't count?

i tried searching for the post, but i think the boards lost a lot of data after they were "transferred"

sounds like you've been using this tactic all season long?

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:54 am

Originally posted by Gekko:

sounds like you've been using this tactic all season long? First opportunity I've had to use it was this week, but I'm sure my savvy competitors who know the rules have been using it all season just like they do to keep 2-start pitchers at TEX and COL out of the lineup when they have a DL'd pitcher to shuffle in.

[ June 21, 2011, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:19 am

I'll ask STATS about the software setup involving this situation and will get back to everyone here. We're definitely not manually going through every lineup and changing this, that's for sure. If the software allows it -- and I would assume technically it would in a rare case like this -- it would go through. This was not something we talked with STATS about before the season and we definitely didn't correct this in 2009, the last year we were with STATS. We didn't have the time to correct this in 2011 even if we wanted to.

Whatever the system is allowing you to do now is how it's set up. But I'll confer with STATS and get the right answer and see if anything can be done in 2012 and beyond involving the case mentioned here.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:22 am

You guys probably know this better than me, but has this happened before this week as well? If so, how many times has it happened? It seems like a rare occurrence, but you guys would know that better than me. Let me know and we'll proceed accordingly. Thanks.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:28 am

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

quote:Originally posted by Gekko:

sounds like you've been using this tactic all season long? First opportunity I've had to use it was this week, but I'm sure my savvy competitors who know the rules have been using it all season just like they do to keep 2-start pitchers at TEX and COL out of the lineup when they have a DL'd pitcher to shuffle in. [/QUOTE]I'm pretty sure this "quirk" is the same as it has always been in the NFBC as well, right? You can start a pitcher who is on the DL early in the week to get no stats from that position and then start someone else on the weekend who may have a more favorable matchup, correct? This one is a little different from the one above because you are still getting only one start from this roster spot, but it's selective spot starting nonetheless.

This one doesn't bother me because again it's one start from this spot. The one talked about in the first post allows owners to get two spots from the same spot if they have SPs on their reserve who only start on Friday, Saturday or Sunday. Still doable, but there's certainly no guarantee that the second SP will have a great weekend performance. But I understand the logic to correct this one more than the other example I cited. Thanks for pointing these out and worthy of looking into for 2012.

Money · Post by **Money** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:17 am

During the course of last season I thought the plan was to close this loophole. Obviously with all that transpired it was difficult to change. I guess it's at this point if you're not utilizing the loophole you're at a competitive disadvantage. It's the same for everyone though. I'm sure it will be revisited this off season.

Gates · Post by **Gates** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:30 am

Greg,

In regards to what you just wrote (2 starts from 2 different pitchers) although I do not find this move let's say appropriate, do we consider this to be legit. I am in a position to "use" Peavy for that purpose and if this is considered ''ok'' , I am not stupid enough to pass on it. Again, I want to make it clear that I do not think it should be legit, but then again, if somebody else uses it, I would be stupid not to.

Thanks

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:32 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

The one talked about in the first post allows owners to get two starts from the same spot if they have SPs on their reserve who only start on Friday, Saturday or Sunday.

Still doable, but there's certainly no guarantee that the second SP will have a great weekend performance. But I understand the logic to correct this one more than the other example I cited. Thanks for pointing these out and worthy of looking into for 2012. Greg, the less commmon occurrence as described above gets you 2 starts for the week from one roster spot, which is no different than having a 2-start pitcher for that week - except that it takes two players to accomplish it, one of them has to be DL'd to begin the week and have a scheduled start prior to Friday and you have to have another pitcher who will pitch during the weekend. So you need a perfect setup to use it, and of course hope it's actually worthwhile to use both the last guy on your staff for that start and another guy's first start off the DL.

I don't think it needs fixing - the only downside is that some players will get their feathers ruffled because they hadn't thought of it. But the only difference between "using" the system to bench a 2-start guy with one bad matchup and getting an extra start in the above situation is that one is an obvious strategy move and the other is a subtle strategy move. More strategy, more better in my view.

[ June 21, 2011, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:39 am

Originally posted by Gates:

Greg,

In regards to what you just wrote (2 starts from 2 different pitchers) although I do not find this move let's say appropriate, do we consider this to be legit. I am in a position to "use" Peavy for that purpose and if this is considered ''ok'' , I am not stupid enough to pass on it. Again, I want to make it clear that I do not think it should be legit, but then again, if somebody else uses it, I would be stupid not to.

Thanks Damn you Canadians are wishy-washy, Gaetan!

Use the loophole, it's there and if you don't, your competitor will.

(I still want to set you and Jules up on a 'blind date', I think she'd dig the french accent)

Be forewarned that Jules is easily tempted by jocks.

Aliases are Mrs Hamilton, Mrs Longoria, and currently, Mrs Hosmer.

Gates · Post by **Gates** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:48 am

Thanks [/qb][/QUOTE]Damn you Canadians are wishy-washy,

Gaetan!

Use the loophole, it's there and if you don't, your competitor will.

(I still want to set you and Jules up on a 'blind date', I think she'd dig the french accent)

Be forewarned that Jules is easily tempted by jocks.

Aliases are Mrs Hamilton, Mrs Longoria, and currently, Mrs Hosmer. [/QB][/quote]

LOL, can't wait for that date...

Ok then, will use...Actually, if technically Niemann was still registered as being on DL at 6:56 pm yesterday and I did not like his second start, I could have used the loophole the other way around...applicable on any potential 2 starts being on DL on Monday...oh well

Hells Satans · Post by **Hells Satans** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:50 am

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

The one talked about in the first post allows owners to get two starts from the same spot if they have SPs on their reserve who only start on Friday, Saturday or Sunday.

Still doable, but there's certainly no guarantee that the second SP will have a great weekend performance. But I understand the logic to correct this one more than the other example I cited. Thanks for pointing these out and worthy of looking into for 2012. Greg, the less commmon occurrence as described above gets you 2 starts for the week from one roster spot, which is no different than having a 2-start pitcher for that week - except that it takes two players to accomplish it, one of them has to be DL'd to begin the week and have a scheduled start prior to Friday and you have to have another pitcher who will pitch during the weekend. So you need a perfect setup to use it, and of course hope it's actually worthwhile to use both the last guy on your staff for that start and another guy's first start off the DL.

I don't think it needs fixing - the only downside is that some players will get their feathers ruffled because they hadn't thought of it. But the only difference between "using" the system to bench a 2-start guy with one bad matchup and getting an extra start in the above situation is that one is an obvious strategy move and the other is a subtle strategy move. More strategy, more better in my view. [/QUOTE]Disagree. This is only allowable because of a hole in the software - not by the rules. If the software was programmed correctly, the SP should lock in for the week the second he was activated from the DL. This is what is contemplated by the rule on DL changes. It's strategic in the sense that it's taking advantage of a software failure that has absolutely nothing to do with fantasy baseball. I think it absolutely be changed going forward.

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:51 am

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

I don't think it needs fixing - the only downside is that some players will get their feathers ruffled because they hadn't thought of it.I have Peavy on three NFBC teams and I'm one of those that hadn't thought of it.

Even if I had, I'd probably prefer that it be eliminated in the future if possible. I think it provides an undeserved competitive advantage, one that rewards a couple things we're trying to eliminate as much as possible in fantasy sports, luck & the use of loopholes.

Still, if it hasn't been addressed in the rules, it's legal and anyone who noticed the potential for this move (unlike me ) should be allowed to utilize it without feeling bad about it or any stigma associated with it.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:04 pm

Originally posted by Glenneration X:

I think it provides an undeserved competitive advantage, one that rewards a couple things we're trying to eliminate as much as possible in fantasy sports, luck & the use of loopholes.

I see it as strategy trumping luck. Luck (bad) is having your pitcher on the DL to begin with. Strategy is trying to use that misfortune to overcome some of your better-luck competitors. I'll take a healthy staff over a 2-start strategy any day.

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:15 pm

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

quote:Originally posted by Glenneration X:

I think it provides an undeserved competitive advantage, one that rewards a couple things we're trying to eliminate as much as possible in fantasy sports, luck & the use of loopholes.

I see it as strategy trumping luck. Luck (bad) is having your pitcher on the DL to begin with. Strategy is trying to use that misfortune to overcome some of your better-luck competitors. I'll take a healthy staff over a 2-start strategy any day.

[/QUOTE]Absolutely. Still, for some reason part of me is happy that I didn't think of this strategy before and therefore won't be able to utiliize it for any of my teams. Or maybe that's just my subconcious trying to make me feel better that I wasn't smart enough to think of it.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:31 pm

Originally posted by Glenneration X:

quote:Originally posted by KJ Duke:

quote:Originally posted by Glenneration X:

I think it provides an undeserved competitive advantage, one that rewards a couple things we're trying to eliminate as much as possible in fantasy sports, luck & the use of loopholes.

I see it as strategy trumping luck. Luck (bad) is having your pitcher on the DL to begin with. Strategy is trying to use that misfortune to overcome some of your better-luck competitors. I'll take a healthy staff over a 2-start strategy any day.

[/QUOTE]Absolutely. Still, for some reason part of me is happy that I didn't think of this strategy before and therefore won't be able to utiliize it for any of my teams. Or maybe that's just my subconcious trying to make me feel better that I wasn't smart enough to think of it. [/QUOTE]Or maybe you're just too nice a guy to use it ... you'd probably slide around the catcher on a play at the plate whereas I'll try to knock the guy into next week if I can jar the ball out of his glove.