Pitchers coming off DL, Peavy and Beachy

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:09 am

Originally posted by Glenneration X:

KJ, aren't you half lawyer? You know precedent is everything. If I was a lawyer I'd be fighting the system non-stop. I'll take fair and efficient over advocacy, precedent and bull**** anyday.

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:17 am

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

quote:Originally posted by Glenneration X:

KJ, aren't you half lawyer? You know precedent is everything. If I was a lawyer I'd be fighting the system non-stop. I'll take fair and efficient over advocacy, precedent and bull**** anyday.

[/QUOTE]

KJ Duke at the NFBC loophole trial......

"You're out of order! You're out of order! The whole trial is out of order! They're out of order!"

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:22 am

Greg on the stand at the same trial.....

"You want the truth? You can't handle the truth about Peavy and Beachy!!!"

whipsaw · Post by **whipsaw** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:25 am

more chatter from 2009... i could have sworn this came up last year too, but those threads must have been deleted.

http://nfbcboards.stats.com/cgi-bin/ult ... 1;t=004078

i personally don't see why an owner should get an advantage of essentially playing with an extra pitcher for a week under any circumstances simply because they have one on the DL on monday. that seems to reward owners who have injured players, and i'm not sure what the justification is for that. but i'm not that worked up about it.

Raskol · Post by **Raskol** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:30 am

I clearly remember this being discussed ad nauseum in 2009 and also assumed that Greg's decision to manually monitor DL moves (in order to prevent this from happening) would carry forward to future seasons. I also can understand why Greg would not want to have to manually monitor hundreds of leagues. So the only solution is to either completely and concretely allow such moves or to disallow them; then get it into the rules and have STATS make this relatively minor programming tweak if necessary.

Gekko · Post by **Gekko** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:32 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

As someone noted, this happened one other time this year and it could happen again. This is from June:

Wandy Rodríguez – Came back from injury to pitch on a Monday (not sure if DL designation was taken away from him by Monday lineup lock)

Brandon Beachy - Came back from injury to pitch on a Wednesday

Jake Peavy - Came back from injury to pitch on a Wednesday

Jeff Niemann – Came back from injury to pitch on a Monday (not sure if DL designation was taken away from him by Monday lineup lock)

Kyle McClellan - Came back from injury to pitch on a Wednesday

Aaron Cook - Came back from injury to pitch on a Wednesday

Phil Coke - Came back from injury to pitch on a Wednesday

Matt Garza – Came back from injury to pitch on a Monday (not sure if DL designation was taken away from him by Monday lineup lock)

Brian Matusz - Came back from injury to pitch on a Wednesday

i haven't looked at april/may, but I’m sure there are other (zack greinke, etc…)

hopefully this will be addressed one way or another next year.

[ June 22, 2011, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: Gekko ]

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:42 am

Originally posted by Gekko:

quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

As someone noted, this happened one other time this year and it could happen again. This is just from June:

Wandy Rodríguez

Brandon Beachy

Jake Peavy

Jeff Niemann

Kyle McClellan

Aaron Cook

Phil Coke

Matt Garza

Brian Matusz

i haven't looked at april/may, but i believe zack greinke falls into this as well [/QUOTE]

Gekko was put on the stand by the prosecution but was immediately dismissed by the judge as an uncredible witness.....

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:50 am

Originally posted by whipsaw:

more chatter from 2009... i could have sworn this came up last year too, but those threads must have been deleted.

http://nfbcboards.stats.com/cgi-bin/ult ... 1;t=004078

i personally don't see why an owner should get an advantage of essentially playing with an extra pitcher for a week under any circumstances simply because they have one on the DL on monday. that seems to reward owners who have injured players, and i'm not sure what the justification is for that. but i'm not that worked up about it. I think I've mellowed a bit in the last 2 years.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:24 am

Originally posted by whipsaw:

more chatter from 2009... i could have sworn this came up last year too, but those threads must have been deleted.

http://nfbcboards.stats.com/cgi-bin/ult ... 1;t=004078

i personally don't see why an owner should get an advantage of essentially playing with an extra pitcher for a week under any circumstances simply because they have one on the DL on monday. that seems to reward owners who have injured players, and i'm not sure what the justification is for that. but i'm not that worked up about it. The threads weren't deleted via the transfer, but having transferred 8 years of posts TWICE in the last 24 months it's obviously tougher to search for them. I don't remember this being brought up last year and honestly I think everyone knows we'd never have been able to fix this last year if it had been brought up. Again, I understand the sentiment this week and we can discuss this going forward. Honestly, the real discussion should be whether this needs to be fixed or not. Or heck, as Chad suggests, whether we need the DL rule or not. But one thing is certain, open season on changing pitchers on Friday's won't happen in the NFBC as long as I'm making the final decisions. And you can clip that quote for later use if you'd like!!

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:31 am

Originally posted by Glenneration X:

quote:Originally posted by Gekko:

quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

As someone noted, this happened one other time this year and it could happen again. This is just from June:

Wandy Rodríguez

Brandon Beachy

Jake Peavy

Jeff Niemann

Kyle McClellan

Aaron Cook

Phil Coke

Matt Garza

Brian Matusz

i haven't looked at april/may, but i believe zack greinke falls into this as well [/QUOTE]

Gekko was put on the stand by the prosecution but was immediately dismissed by the judge as an uncredible witness..... [/QUOTE]If I do recall, 2009 was the year Mark was ready to prove at every juncture that STATS was less than perfect. I think he went overboard in 2008 on two occasions about my rulings and STATS in general and we had some dandy blowups. Then this "loophole" put him in the straight-jacket you show above!!

I'm only kidding Mark, but 2009 turned out to be a stellar year by STATS and then we were sold to Fanball, where you had your best NFBC season to date. Maybe you really liked THAT software instead!!

We've all changed a bit and seen how good we really have it today, but I do know why I posted the way I did in 2009 and I'll just leave it at that.

I'm happier with our contest today and I trust we can solve this puzzle here at season's end if the masses want it.

Good picture Glenn!!

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:55 am

When the dl rule was implemented, I believe it included both hitters and pitchers. Then, the twice a week changes for hitters left us with just the pitchers that were given the dl brand

Twice a week hitters lineups have been great for players. Several hitters go day-to-day during the week and the fix from our bench is immediate and a great help.

Better than the dl, this rule applies for all.

Now, we're back to where we were with pitchers. I don't think the dl rule works for pitchers. It helps some teams and not others. When a rule does that, it isn't a good rule.

I know that every rule change is scrutinized carefully by every player and I'm sure I'm missing something before suggesting this, but I'm ready to take the heat

My suggestion is this-

Included in the Friday deadline is the ability to replace any pitcher who has not thrown a pitch Monday-Thursday.

The dl designation would be gone and there would be no streaming of pitchers.

Just a thought...

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:59 am

Of course rules can not be changed mid year.

This would be a 2012 change.

TParsons · Post by **TParsons** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:23 pm

I haven't ever done this move and am kind of on the fence how I feel. I do have a question however:

Are the teams that have these DL'd players in their lineup, but don't take advantage of the "loophole" prior to the player being taken off the DL allowed to go ahead and make the change prior to the 2nd scoring period of the week?

For example, a team may have had Beachy in its first half of the week lineup prior to this weekend and then put another starter in for the 2nd scoring period of the week prior to Beachy coming off the DL today. Another player may have also had Beachy in for the first scoring period, but did not put another player in for the 2nd scoring period. Does that 2nd player now have the opportunity to replace Beachy for the 2nd scoring period? if he does, I'm fine with this because it gives teams with like players the same opportunity to "exploit the loophole." If it does not give the 2nd team the opportunity to make the change, I do not agree with it because it's not consistent. The roster move deadline is clear for the 2nd scoring period, the earlier of 6:55 or 5 min prior to game start. Therefore, by rule, the 2nd team should have the same opportunity to make that switch all the way up to the deadline. Otherwise it's inconsistent and does give the first team an advantage over the second team, even though they own like players.

I apologize for the rambling. I'm in a hurry and just throwing this out there. I'm fine either way, but would like consistency within the current framework. The current framework suggests the deadline for the 2nd period is 6:55 or 5 min prior to game time. If (and I don't know the answer to this) team 1 is allowed to make the change on Monday morning, but team 2 can't make the change prior to Friday, then that's not really within the current framework. Everyone should be able to make the same move for the 2nd scoring period as long as it's prior to the deadline. Consistency!

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:34 pm

AP - The courtroom was a buzz today as the defense brought in a surprise witness, Dan "Doughboys" Kenyon. Those in the court today said the jury looked visibly shaken as the reputed crime boss gave his first account and chillingly graphic testimony.

Hells Satans · Post by **Hells Satans** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:45 pm

Originally posted by TParsons:

I haven't ever done this move and am kind of on the fence how I feel. I do have a question however:

Are the teams that have these DL'd players in their lineup, but don't take advantage of the "loophole" prior to the player being taken off the DL allowed to go ahead and make the change prior to the 2nd scoring period of the week?

For example, a team may have had Beachy in its first half of the week lineup prior to this weekend and then put another starter in for the 2nd scoring period of the week prior to Beachy coming off the DL today. Another player may have also had Beachy in for the first scoring period, but did not put another player in for the 2nd scoring period. Does that 2nd player now have the opportunity to replace Beachy for the 2nd scoring period? if he does, I'm fine with this because it gives teams with like players the same opportunity to "exploit the loophole." If it does not give the 2nd team the opportunity to make the change, I do not agree with it because it's not consistent. The roster move deadline is clear for the 2nd scoring period, the earlier of 6:55 or 5 min prior to game start. Therefore, by rule, the 2nd team should have the same opportunity to make that switch all the way up to the deadline. Otherwise it's inconsistent and does give the first team an advantage over the second team, even though they own like players.

I apologize for the rambling. I'm in a hurry and just throwing this out there. I'm fine either way, but would like consistency within the current framework. The current framework suggests the deadline for the 2nd period is 6:55 or 5 min prior to game time. If (and I don't know the answer to this) team 1 is allowed to make the change on Monday morning, but team 2 can't make the change prior to Friday, then that's not really within the current framework. Everyone should be able to make the same move for the 2nd scoring period as long as it's prior to the deadline. Consistency! That's exactly the point. Team 2 cannot make the change on Thursday because once the DL SP comes off the DL, he can't be switched out. It's only if you make the change for Fri-Sun on Mon. that this works.

TParsons · Post by **TParsons** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:52 pm

Originally posted by Hells Satans:

quote:Originally posted by TParsons:

I haven't ever done this move and am kind of on the fence how I feel. I do have a question however:

Are the teams that have these DL'd players in their lineup, but don't take advantage of the "loophole" prior to the player being taken off the DL allowed to go ahead and make the change prior to the 2nd scoring period of the week?

For example, a team may have had Beachy in its first half of the week lineup prior to this weekend and then put another starter in for the 2nd scoring period of the week prior to Beachy coming off the DL today. Another player may have also had Beachy in for the first scoring period, but did not put another player in for the 2nd scoring period. Does that 2nd player now have the opportunity to replace Beachy for the 2nd scoring period? if he does, I'm fine with this because it gives teams with like players the same opportunity to "exploit the loophole." If it does not give the 2nd team the opportunity to make the change, I do not agree with it because it's not consistent. The roster move deadline is clear for the 2nd scoring period, the earlier of 6:55 or 5 min prior to game start. Therefore, by rule, the 2nd team should have the same opportunity to make that switch all the way up to the deadline. Otherwise it's inconsistent and does give the first team an advantage over the second team, even though they own like players.

I apologize for the rambling. I'm in a hurry and just throwing this out there. I'm fine either way, but would like consistency within the current framework. The current framework suggests the deadline for the 2nd period is 6:55 or 5 min prior to game time. If (and I don't know the answer to this) team 1 is allowed to make the change on Monday morning, but team 2 can't make the change prior to Friday, then that's not really within the current framework. Everyone should be able to make the same move for the 2nd scoring period as long as it's prior to the deadline. Consistency! That's exactly the point. Team 2 cannot make the change on Thursday because once the DL SP comes off the DL, he can't be switched out. It's only if you make the change for Fri-Sun on Mon. that this works. [/QUOTE]Then it's not within the rules. The rules say that period 2 deadline is Friday at 6:55 or 5 min prior to game start. If I have Beachy and can't switch him out on Friday prior to the 2nd period deadline, but someone else was able to switch him out, then it's clearly giving the team that made the switch earlier an advantage. If the move is allowed on Sunday, Monday, or Tuesday, then it should be allowed up until the 2nd period deadline as the rules state it will, otherwise neither team should be able to make the switch. It should either be bother or neither, not one or the other. Teams owning like players MUST be able to make like changes. I don't see how you can possibly allow one team to make the switch and not the other when the deadline is quite clear. It's not about this "glitch" being in the rules, it's about the clearly stated deadline for period 2.

Gekko · Post by **Gekko** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:54 pm

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

If I do recall, 2009 was the year Mark was ready to prove at every juncture that STATS was less than perfect. I think he went overboard in 2008 on two occasions about my rulings and STATS in general and we had some dandy blowups. Then this "loophole" put him in the straight-jacket you show above!!

I'm only kidding Mark, but 2009 turned out to be a stellar year by STATS and then we were sold to Fanball, where you had your best NFBC season to date. Maybe you really liked THAT software instead!!

We've all changed a bit and seen how good we really have it today, but I do know why I posted the way I did in 2009 and I'll just leave it at that.

I'm happier with our contest today and I trust we can solve this puzzle here at season's end if the masses want it.

Good picture Glenn!!

Greg,

Personally, I love the STATS interface. This current issue is a non-issue with me. Wish I knew this was legal last year and this year, but now i know and i'll use it just like my competitors.

On a side note, I can't wait for football. Spending time with you, Tom, Glenn, Billy, Matt and others makes the trip worthwhile all by itself. Your drinks/shots/etc are on me for a night. It's the least I can do for being able to tolerate me throughout the years

[ June 22, 2011, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: Gekko ]

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:57 pm

Originally posted by Hells Satans:

That's exactly the point. Team 2 cannot make the change on Thursday because once the DL SP comes off the DL, he can't be switched out. It's only if you make the change for Fri-Sun on Mon. that this works.

AP - Not to be outdone, the prosecution struck back with its own surprise witness with a less than wholesome reputation, Hell's own Satan. The temperature in the courtroom seemed to rise immediately as Mr. Satan took the stand and the testimony was described by onlookers as quite heated.

[ June 22, 2011, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: Glenneration X ]

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:07 pm

Originally posted by TParsons:

quote:Originally posted by Hells Satans:

quote:Originally posted by TParsons:

I haven't ever done this move and am kind of on the fence how I feel. I do have a question however:

Are the teams that have these DL'd players in their lineup, but don't take advantage of the "loophole" prior to the player being taken off the DL allowed to go ahead and make the change prior to the 2nd scoring period of the week?

For example, a team may have had Beachy in its first half of the week lineup prior to this weekend and then put another starter in for the 2nd scoring period of the week prior to Beachy coming off the DL today. Another player may have also had Beachy in for the first scoring period, but did not put another player in for the 2nd scoring period. Does that 2nd player now have the opportunity to replace Beachy for the 2nd scoring period? if he does, I'm fine with this because it gives teams with like players the same opportunity to "exploit the loophole." If it does not give the 2nd team the opportunity to make the change, I do not agree with it because it's not consistent. The roster move deadline is clear for the 2nd scoring period, the earlier of 6:55 or 5 min prior to game start. Therefore, by rule, the 2nd team should have the same opportunity to make that switch all the way up to the deadline. Otherwise it's inconsistent and does give the first team an advantage over the second team, even though they own like players.

I apologize for the rambling. I'm in a hurry and just throwing this out there. I'm fine either way, but would like consistency within the current framework. The current framework suggests the deadline for the 2nd period is 6:55 or 5 min prior to game time. If (and I don't know the answer to this) team 1 is allowed to make the change on Monday morning, but team 2 can't make the change prior to Friday, then that's not really within the current framework. Everyone should be able to make the same move for the 2nd scoring period as long as it's prior to the deadline. Consistency! That's exactly the point. Team 2 cannot make the change on Thursday because once the DL SP comes off the DL, he can't be switched out. It's only if you make the change for Fri-Sun on Mon. that this works. [/QUOTE]Then it's not within the rules. The rules say that period 2 deadline is Friday at 6:55 or 5 min prior to game start. If I have Beachy and can't switch him out on Friday prior to the 2nd period deadline, but someone else was able to switch him out, then it's clearly giving the team that made the switch earlier an advantage. If the move is allowed on Sunday, Monday, or Tuesday, then it should be allowed up until the 2nd period deadline as the rules state it will, otherwise neither team should be able to make the switch. It should either be bother or neither, not one or the other. Teams owning like players MUST be able to make like changes. I don't see how you can possibly allow one team to make the switch and not the other when the deadline is quite clear. It's not about this "glitch" being in the rules, it's about the clearly stated deadline for period 2. [/QUOTE]This is an extremely important point and is absolutely true.

Right now if I wanted to switch out Peavy, I can't. I actually would have been able to utilize this move to my benefit for my NYC Main Event team as Homer Bailey is now scheduled to start on Sunday and is sitting in my reserves. However Peavy no longer has the DL designation and an artificial deadline has therefore been placed on using this loophole. Honestly, that creates an uneven playing field that can not be justified in the rules and all these moves need to be reversed or anyone should be allowed to swap out Peavy and/or Beachy until Friday at 6:55pm.

Cocktails and Dreams · Post by **Cocktails and Dreams** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:17 pm

Parsons exactly right. That is why it shouldn't be allowed. We all have things going on and that is why there are deadlines. You get your stuff set by the deadline. You should not have to be constantly looking to see who has a DL tag and when they have it. Lets say I pitcher has a DL tage on Monday but is pitching Monday night. Now folks are expected to be in a race against the clock and change whatever plans they may have in hopes that the DL pitcher still is listed as a DL pitcher at the 655 deadline so they can then do this tactic. Anyone looking at it logically knows that shouldn't be the case. Like Parsons said, if someone was able to get Beachy out before he pitched, everyone with Beachy should be able to do it by Friday. This current method makes no sense. And if it is going to be left in place, then all pitchers with a DL tag at any time during the week should keep that tag until Friday. That is something that could and should be implemented now.

Dough has a decent idea for down the road.

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:31 pm

This really needs to be addressed as it not only creates an uneven playing field between those who have a pitcher who is being taken off the DL during the M-Th scoring period vs. those who don't, but now also creates an uneven playing field between two players who both have this player but attempt the move during different times within the same scoring period. Greg, there's just too many reasons why this move needs to be disallowed at this point.

I also like Doughy's suggestion, but only for starting pitchers. A reliever who pitches one inning on Monday, then gets injured would not be protected under this rule. If there was a way to limit it to starters, I think it would be helpful.

Gekko · Post by **Gekko** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:07 pm

Originally posted by Cocktails and Dreams:

Now folks are expected to be in a race against the clock and change whatever plans they may have in hopes that the DL pitcher still is listed as a DL pitcher at the 655 deadline so they can then do this tactic. ding ding

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:23 pm

Originally posted by Gekko:

quote:Originally posted by Cocktails and Dreams:

Now folks are expected to be in a race against the clock and change whatever plans they may have in hopes that the DL pitcher still is listed as a DL pitcher at the 655 deadline so they can then do this tactic. ding ding [/QUOTE]You don't have to race any clock, just log-in Monday after the deadline and make the swap.

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:44 pm

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

quote:Originally posted by Gekko:

quote:Originally posted by Cocktails and Dreams:

Now folks are expected to be in a race against the clock and change whatever plans they may have in hopes that the DL pitcher still is listed as a DL pitcher at the 655 deadline so they can then do this tactic. ding ding [/QUOTE]You don't have to race any clock, just log-in Monday after the deadline and make the swap. [/QUOTE]KJ, you can't seriously still be claiming there isn't a serious inequity here.

There's a saying in my line of business that if something doesn't look right, it isn't right.

Let's see what we're looking at......

-Clear inadvertant advantage given to those who have a DL'd pitcher who is starting M-Th over those who don't.

-Clearly addressed in a previous year where a precedent was clearly set, a precedent that is now being ignored.

-Now we've discovered that it can give a clear unintentional advantage between two teams that have that same player!!!

What about any of this looks right or fair or doesn't harm the credibility and even playing field of this contest to you? Again, if it doesn't look right, it isn't right.

I'm not really sure what's even left to debate after Parson's discovery. This clearly creates more issues than it's worth. This is a fantasy baseball contest. Why the hell are we rewarding those who are taking advantage of a hole in the system rather than making sure a programming glitch isn't the reason someone benefits. Fantasy baseball acumen should be rewarded, not those who can find the most loopholes.

[ June 22, 2011, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: Glenneration X ]

Gekko · Post by **Gekko** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:00 pm

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

quote:Originally posted by Gekko:

quote:Originally posted by Cocktails and Dreams:

Now folks are expected to be in a race against the clock and change whatever plans they may have in hopes that the DL pitcher still is listed as a DL pitcher at the 655 deadline so they can then do this tactic. ding ding [/QUOTE]You don't have to race any clock, just log-in Monday after the deadline and make the swap. [/QUOTE]if the pitcher is pitching monday and u don't want his 2nd start, you could get lucky that he still has the DL designation at 6.55 but then it disappears shortly thereafter. hence, race to beat the clock