2012 Rule Proposal that would solve all in season problems!

Nevadaman · Post by **Nevadaman** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:25 pm

After endless debate about Friday DL, streaming pitchers, loopholes, last two week rule, etc, I believe we must revisit the obvious solution to all this that would make our game perfect - in my opinion.

I'm not thrilled with all these complications, tweaks, exceptions, etc. Here's how we can solve this whole problem for good. Of course, lineups would be set for Monday like always. This rule would replace the Friday DL and other mid-week moves.

Each owner would have X number (maybe 50?, but we can debate the number) of in week moves available for the season. There would be a number countdown in plain sight for all to see. You would be allowed to make any hitting or pitching switch you want for any reason on any day you want, but there would only be a limited number available to prevent streaming pitchers and the equivalent of a daily game! This would eliminate all the complicated rules and owner complaints, and add a really cool bit of strategy to the game. We could debate the number of moves, but this would be the easiest to understand and the most logical to implement. I see no downside to this as it is fair and equitable for all owners. What do you guys think??

[ September 03, 2011, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: Nevadaman ]

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:03 pm

I proposed this years ago and wrote about it again earlier this season HERE

[ September 03, 2011, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: ToddZ ]

Nevadaman · Post by **Nevadaman** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:18 pm

I posted this idea in years past also. That's why I said "revisit" the topic. I liked your post as well and am sorry you haven't pushed for it more strongly after your initial post. (Although you may have as I don't read the boards all the time and could have missed further responses.) At any rate, it seems like an obvious no brainer, and I hope the idea gets traction.

Cornhusker · Post by **Cornhusker** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:33 am

Not a terrible idea. I would prefer old school once weekly moves on Monday but could live with this.

However, probably not the best business move for Greg and Tom. When you add a component where daily moves need to be considered, my number of teams will go from 4 total to 1 or 2. I would guess that most would cut back on their satellite teams if they need to watch them closely to fully take advantage of the 50 moves.

My 2 cents.

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:43 am

Originally posted by Cornhusker:

Not a terrible idea. I would prefer old school once weekly moves on Monday but could live with this.

However, probably not the best business move for Greg and Tom. When you add a component where daily moves need to be considered, my number of teams will go from 4 total to 1 or 2. I would guess that most would cut back on their satellite teams if they need to watch them closely to fully take advantage of the 50 moves.

My 2 cents. Agreed, this was discussed in the linked column as well as the need to make sure the coding was loophole-free, for if it were not, this group would surely take advantage.

[ September 04, 2011, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: ToddZ ]

Scott Boras · Post by **Scott Boras** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:48 am

Originally posted by Cornhusker:

Not a terrible idea. I would prefer old school once weekly moves on Monday but could live with this.

However, probably not the best business move for Greg and Tom. When you add a component where daily moves need to be considered, my number of teams will go from 4 total to 1 or 2. I would guess that most would cut back on their satellite teams if they need to watch them closely to fully take advantage of the 50 moves.

My 2 cents. That's an easy fix. Make it 10 moves instead of 50. The real downside would be implementing new software. No idea how difficult or costly this would be. I like the idea of everyone having the same predetermined number of moves. I also like the old school zero moves. I don't really care for being handcuffed by dl deadlines which place us at the mercy of teams waiting to officially dl a player at the last possible second. Also not a huge fan of 2x weekly moves for offense. If a player is injured on Monday, you still miss 3 days waiting for Friday. I would vote in favor of Todd's and Nevadaman's suggestion. I would start by saying 50 should be considered the maximum. That's 2 moves per week which seems to go beyond injury protection and borders streaming territory.

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:49 am

Originally posted by Nevadaman:

I posted this idea in years past also. That's why I said "revisit" the topic. I liked your post as well and am sorry you haven't pushed for it more strongly after your initial post. (Although you may have as I don't read the boards all the time and could have missed further responses.) At any rate, it seems like an obvious no brainer, and I hope the idea gets traction. Sorry, missed the "re" before visit, my bad.

My intent is to see how the normal rules discussion goes in the off-season. That said, assuming the obvious happens and the NFBC gets an influx of customers from elsewhere, this may not be the time to push such a change, you only get so many bullets before you start firing blanks and 2012 may not be so wise. A satellite would be cool, but the effort to program the software may preclude it -- that's a lot of man-hours for so little return.

[ September 04, 2011, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: ToddZ ]

Fourslot40 · Post by **Fourslot40** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:03 am

I don't see a reason for putting a number on moves. Just keep it simple and set your lineup once for Monday.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:21 am

This would hurt the injury riddled teams even further. Some teams HAVE to make moves just to keep 'live' players on the field.

This idea won't get much support from those affected by a lot of injuries this year.

It also gives us more limits. As a whole, fantasy players dislike limits.

The number of moves, itself, may be argued from here to eternity.

I believe most players like the unlimited Friday hitting changes. I think it is here to stay.

Messing with that, in order to 'fix' something else does not leave me with a good feeling.

I prefer the 'If a pitcher has not thrown a pitch Mon-Thurs then he can be replaced on Friday' route.

No limits to keep straight, and if programmable, an approach that won't further hinder injury riddled teams. It leaves the hitters side out of the equation as well.

If we find out after the deadline that a pitcher is dl'ed or will miss a start or get skipped a start, we will have a recourse to start another pitcher from the bench on Friday, without 'being charged' a move.

It could also open up some strategic values as well.

Lets take for instance that our closer was not used during a series on Mon-Thurs.

This opens up the possibility of changing him for a starter or another closer from the bench.

Also this move adds a help for pitchers effected by rain outs. Sometimes a pitcher is skipped because of weather. This would allow us to still get a 'live body' in the lineup on Friday. Again, without being charged a move.

Its been my experience that players like as much control as possible.

We have no control over injury, except to possibly avoid injury prone players from the past.

My idea of opening a roster spot for somebody that hasn't thrown earlier in the week gives us more control and less limitations and aids those teams with injury.

Any which way we cut it, the dl rule has to go. It had good intent but its usage does not align with that intent.

[ September 04, 2011, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: DOUGHBOYS ]

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:22 am

Originally posted by Fourslot40:

I don't see a reason for putting a number on moves. Just keep it simple and set your lineup once for Monday. It's quite clear that we are not going in this direction -- too many people want some level of mid-week managing ability, so instead of trying to convince the masses of something the majority will not agree to, it is better to come up with a compromise, at least that is the way I see it.

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:08 am

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

I prefer the 'If a pitcher has not thrown a pitch Mon-Thurs then he can be replaced on Friday' route.

No limits to keep straight, and if programmable, an approach that won't further hinder injury riddled teams. It leaves the hitters side out of the equation as well.

If we find out after the deadline that a pitcher is dl'ed or will miss a start or get skipped a start, we will have a recourse to start another pitcher from the bench on Friday, without 'being charged' a move.The main issue I have with this - and this is strictly philosophical thus more personal preference - is another strategy is starting a guy scheduled to pitch Friday, then taking him out for a guy that had a tough matchup on Monday or Tuesday, but an easier one on Friday, Saturday or Sunday.

This just feeds into my lament that the game has evolved to mitigate so much risk with respect to pitching. But, the ability to do this would be the same for everyone, so the playing field is level, which is the most important thing.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:25 am

Yes, I've thought about that as well.

I sort of like it.

We've been force-fed two starts from some pitchers because of dates on a calendar, it would give us an option to miss one of those starts. I like the strategical angle, and like said, it'll be the same for everybody.

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:34 am

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

Yes, I've thought about that as well.

I sort of like it.

We've been force-fed two starts from some pitchers because of dates on a calendar, it would give us an option to miss one of those starts. I like the strategical angle, and like said, it'll be the same for everybody. FWIW. my "beef" with it is I believe the object of the game is three-fold:

1. Estimate a player's year long performance

2. Convert that to "value", relative to other players at the same and different positions while considering the specific categorical contributions.

3. Assemble a roster to achieve the maximum number of rotisserie points.

Allowing the owner to reserve players (hitters or pitchers) takes away from the importance of all three, but especially #1. Instead of projecting Clayton Richard's season long expectation then #2 then #3, you draft him with plan on starting him for home starts without really any basis other than PETCO -- GOOD.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:49 am

For the most part we are already doing that...

Platoon lefties are not started when an upcoming series features two lefties starting against his team.

We would not throw Clayton Richards on the road already in a lot of situations.

I like the choices it offers.

Still sometimes, we will be forced to start that platoon lefty player or Richards on the road.

I don't like the thought of being more penalized by way of 'move count' for deciding against a match up though.

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:58 am

True, we are already doing all that, this just affords us an ADDITIONAL opportunity that does not presently exist is all.

Like I said, personal preference.

Nevadaman · Post by **Nevadaman** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:38 am

Doughboys, let me address your concern about injury riddled teams. Doesn't it drive you crazy that injury announcements always seem to come on Monday giving you a DNP for 4 days? At least with a set number of moves an owner can make an immediate change and only miss 1 game instead of 4. That seems to HELP injury riddled teams and not hurt them, doesn't it? Why should we all be at the mercy of WHEN a player gets hurt? This solves that problem by evening out the bad luck of when an injury occurs. Based on comments received here, I believe 25 moves may be optimum. That would take care of all injury concerns and leave the owner with a few strategic decisions to spice up the season. A better game for all in my opinion.

swampass · Post by **swampass** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:04 am

at first i was against the decision to move hitters in and out of the lineup on friday. now i love it. i love the extra strategy it provides. i of course inevitably switch guys out at the wrong time, but its fun nonetheless.

daily moves is way too much work even if you are managing only 1 team and the idea of a limited amount of moves makes my skin crawl. 25 moves with rosters this size? wow. you guys must be amazing drafters to only need 25 moves to fix all your draft day mistakes and or random injuries that occur every season.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:11 am

Steve, you're implying that these moves could be made daily. Greg has already stated that will not happen here.

Anyway, let me tell you how your theory hurts injury riddled teams and not help them.

Let's say that Posey, BRoberts, and Ike Davis all get hurt during the space of one week.

This team would have to make three immediate moves for 'live' bodies.

When Sunday comes, more than likely they will make corresponding moves to help them out positionally. This will account for more moves.

Additionally, one faab period cannot fill all these positions the way we'd like. We have to wait down the pike to fill these positions the way we want. Along the way, we will probably pick up some 'fools gold' and have to drop them.

With the immediate 'live' bodies move and mixing and matching thereafter, I can see making at least 12 moves to account for these three injuries.

Is it really fair to handcuff a team with 25 moves, or whatever the number is, when they've already suffered through the loss of three key players?

I don't think so.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:24 am

Additionally, this would also effect faab.

If a team exhausts its moves in late August or September, they will sit on the sidelines for faab knowing changes cannot be made to their lineup anyway.

We want as many folks involved in September as possible.

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:10 am

I should make it clear that my proposal is "X" moves over and above the standard unlimited once-a-week, effective Monday moves.

Nevadaman · Post by **Nevadaman** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:41 am

Thanks Todd! Wow, a bit of a communication breakdown! Dough, we are talking about 25 moves above and beyond the weekly lineup starts. No wonder you didn't like it! As for Greg stating no daily moves, we all know he meant unlimited daily moves. I don't see how an average of 1 move a week could be considered streaming. It just isn't.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:52 am

Is this for just pitchers then?

I see no reason to mess with hitters.

Greg has said he doesn't want daily moves. This would qualify since each player would have to log in each day to see if there was a move to be made.

Daily moves are not wanted so that players will not have to check on their teams every day.

Also, I still like the no pitches Mon-Thurs more.

More strategy, less limitations, easier concept.

Hitters are not involved.

FFBL23 · Post by **FFBL23** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:22 pm

This proposed cap on the number of moves is just plain stupid. It's simple, keep it like it is or mirror it to the other contest (I refuse to use those 5 letters). Since Greg has stated he won't go in that direction, just keep it like it is. I don't think a lot of players would like this rule, I personally think it's a terrible idea.

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:32 pm

In a nutshell -- Monday moves as is and a set number of discretionary moves to use for anyone, any other time.

"On paper" I don't think it is so terrible.

But there are some significant downsides

1. Acceptability/marketability

2. Coding -- you have to be able to put in the Monday changes early if you are going away, etc, amongst other issues

FWIW, slightly off topic but related, while I agree this adds something that falls under the umbrella of strategy, I contend that the majority of moves are "common sense" or speculation. There is nothing wrong with that, mind you, just making conversation.

Fourslot40 · Post by **Fourslot40** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:18 pm

I'm for strategy and a good difficulty factor, but this seems a bit too much. The strategy should lie with player decisions, FAAB and statistical strategy, not so much with saving in-week moves during the year. As it stands now, people with several teams are pulling their hair out with FAAB alone each week.

I'm fine with the rule as it lies with offensive moves being made during the week. In my opinion, just simply make the pitching moves isolated to once per week on Mondays as suggested by others... or just keep it as it is knowing that everyone understands and is aware of the pitching DL procedure now. Done.

Just my opinion.

[ September 04, 2011, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: Fourslot40 ]