More Details On 12-Team Main Event

BEF · Post by **BEF** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:22 am

Greg, why don't you poll the 45 owners from the AFL Draft-and-Hold leagues to get their opinion? My guess is that the vast majority of them would be first-time players, and I'm guessing few of them monitor these boards. Yes, it's a small sample, but so are the active members of these boards (which are somewhat dominated by the veterans who I believe are biased toward chasing the big money prize). I don't think it's smart to base your decision on the opinions of a couple dozen NFBC veterans when the main point of establishing this 12 Team competition is to entice new players.

Asumijet · Post by **Asumijet** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:42 am

Originally posted by Quahogs:

Ok how about this. I agree with Ken and Glenn X. Love the move to 50k with other higher prizes. Now how about we put all 3rd place finishers into a hat and draw 1 team. Team that gets drawn wins a free entry to 2013's NFBC XII(

) or the ME.

Maybe that has to be paid out in cash but you get the idea. That way there's something to shoot for and it becomes material.

Throw it on You-tube: make index cards of all 3rd place finishers, video tape it, sweep it into bag then pull a card.

If there's some kind of validity issue :rolleyes: then maybe HSFB isn't for them.

Just a thought... I think this is the best idea of the bunch. I would expand on it a bit.

1) Of all the 3rd place winners, draw 5-10 prizes for a chance at a $350 Online entry.

2) Then from all the 4th place finishers and remaining 3rd place finishers draw 5-10 prizes for a $125 or $150 slow draft or sat league event.

3) Apply all of the rest of the $$ to the overall prizes.

This gives everyone something to play to the end. And gives everyone a bit of what they are seeking and ensures repeat business.

Zazie · Post by **Zazie** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:57 am

Originally posted by Sack:

Zazie:

With all due respect. Do you really think offering a new player the chance to cash a $500 third place prize from a $1000 entry is appealing? Bottom line, the third place guy is losing $500 and if he plays multiple games he'll face tax consequences at $600. What new player is ever going to enter a contest content to lose money?

I have no issue if the $500 was distributed back into the league prizes as MONEY has stated, although my preferences still sit with the overall. New blood is great, but the existing player base needs to stamp approval as well. This won't be known until they finalize the rules/payoffs and see if we as a customer base choose to support this new game. My opinion is that the third-place prize is worthless and that strengthening the top 10 OA payouts is the way to go. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if Greg found that being able to advertise that the top 3 league finishers get paid draws some people in, even if they aren't all that impressed by the third-place money when they find out what it is.

Rog · Post by **Rog** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:47 am

Just spoke with a few of my local league friends.I broke down the different scenarios and they basically all said the same thing.If I am paying $1000 dollars I am trying to win big money, as 1 friend put it (I DONT STICK A DOLLAR IN A SLOT MACHINE TO GET BACK .50 CENTS)

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:57 am

Originally posted by low talkers:

Looking at leagues at the beginning of the year, $500 for 3rd place doesn't look great... But, especially for new players, at the end of the year, getting a $500 check in the mail would feel pretty fantastic, regardless of how much you payed in. Could see that helping entice someone to come back again the next year. This is certainly my logic and in any Main Event I think the goal should be to pay down three spots within the league. That being said, I realize we need to entice our loyal players to this event to get the ball rolling and get this Premier 12-Team Live Draft off the ground and growing. I know in my heart that this 12-team format can have great success and eventually the entry fee will increase to a level that will make the grand prize six figures. I really believe that will happen quickly.

But first we have to get it started. If $50,000 is what is needed to get this rolling and successful out of the gate, then I'll consider that. If we grow beyond 300 teams we can look at improving the league prizes beyond 4x for 1st and 2x for second, possibly adding a third place prize. It's something I'll have to consider because I know once we have new owners drafting live in a 12-team format with a chance to win $50,000 by beating just 299 other owners it will grow from there.

I'll consider this and discuss things internally. All are valid points for both formulas, but again the key is to get this event off the ground and rolling forward. When we grow beyond 300 teams then we can boost prizes in many different ways.

I believe the Online Championship and the 12-Team Main Event have enough merits to both be successful. And in the meantime, we'll continue to bring in new NFBC members with both formats and hopefully bring them to the live events rather than just to the online events. That's the goal. We're taking a bit of a risk to do that, but we've always done that and our customers have always responded. Let's keep the dialogue going professionally and consider both sides before finalizing this event with our new Registration page. Thanks all for the feedback.

Money · Post by **Money** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:15 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

quote:Originally posted by low talkers:

Looking at leagues at the beginning of the year, $500 for 3rd place doesn't look great... But, especially for new players, at the end of the year, getting a $500 check in the mail would feel pretty fantastic, regardless of how much you payed in. Could see that helping entice someone to come back again the next year. This is certainly my logic and in any Main Event I think the goal should be to pay down three spots within the league. That being said, I realize we need to entice our loyal players to this event to get the ball rolling and get this Premier 12-Team Live Draft off the ground and growing. I know in my heart that this 12-team format can have great success and eventually the entry fee will increase to a level that will make the grand prize six figures. I really believe that will happen quickly.

But first we have to get it started. If $50,000 is what is needed to get this rolling and successful out of the gate, then I'll consider that. If we grow beyond 300 teams we can look at improving the league prizes beyond 4x for 1st and 2x for second, possibly adding a third place prize. It's something I'll have to consider because I know once we have new owners drafting live in a 12-team format with a chance to win $50,000 by beating just 299 other owners it will grow from there.

I'll consider this and discuss things internally. All are valid points for both formulas, but again the key is to get this event off the ground and rolling forward. When we grow beyond 300 teams then we can boost prizes in many different ways.

I believe the Online Championship and the 12-Team Main Event have enough merits to both be successful. And in the meantime, we'll continue to bring in new NFBC members with both formats and hopefully bring them to the live events rather than just to the online events. That's the goal. We're taking a bit of a risk to do that, but we've always done that and our customers have always responded. Let's keep the dialogue going professionally and consider both sides before finalizing this event with our new Registration page. Thanks all for the feedback. [/QUOTE]The $500 return means nothing at the beginning of the contest. It means a lot at the end, even if it is only half the entry. It goes a long ways when you hand the wife or girlfriend $500 back at the seasons conclusion. The next season becomes easier to stomach for the significant others.

With that said. I'm good with whatever Greg decides to do. I've had my say and this certainly isn't a deal breaker for me. I will back up my thoughts here by having multiple teams in this event while staying away from the "Other" main event. I have to leave that to the Pro's.

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:31 pm

Joe, we were all new players once. In fact, I believe I was a new player only one year before you were. I understand your points, but I believe you're going overboard with the "Pros" wanting a larger overall prize because they figure they'll win it logic.

I know one thing for certain. If your concern is attracting new blood to the contest, third place money of $500 will be of little consequence to any new player willing to buy-in at the cost of $1000. When I was a new player in 2009, again only one year before you were, the third place prize played absolutely no part in my decision to join. It was the overall prize of $100,000.00. That was the carrot that attracted me. I'd be willing to bet that was the carrot that attracted everyone who's ever joined the overall contest, including you.

There's $1000 satellites for those who'd rather invest their grand in a league that defers to the league prizes.

I'd also be willing to bet that in the first year of this new 12-team contest, the registration list is populated almost exclusively by veterans of the NFBC who would just like another live draft during the Vegas or New York weekends. I can't imagine too many new players to the NFBC plunking $1000 down to win a $40K or even $50K prize when for only $400 more they get a chance at $100K. Pot odds my friend. 2 to 1 increase on return for only 1.4 times the buy-in.

If the 12-teamer is the attraction as you stated, why would a new player spend $1000 for the same grand prize as the Online Championship when for the same grand in that format, he can get a 3-pack and three times the chance at the same grand prize. I doubt the $500 3rd place prize is a difference maker in that decision.

What needs to be done is to increase the grand prize and overall 2-10 prizes to differentiate it from the Online Championships and have those who perform well in the online format migrate naturally to the bigger and better prizes in the live event. That's human nature and that's what makes sense, not hoping a $500 consolation keeps players coming back.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm a big proponent of improving league prizes. I believe that in the Main Event, league prizes and the 2-10 overall prizes need to be increased well before the first place overall prize is ever touched. However, first thing's first. The Grand Prize is the number one attraction for new players to any overall contest. That has to be made enough of a carrot before all other considerations are addressed.

Sack · Post by **Sack** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:15 pm

Good post Glenn, I agree with you across the board.

Rog · Post by **Rog** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:16 pm

Just asked my wife about it(she plays ff football not baseball)and she said if she cant get at least her entry fee back for third than she would rather see as much as possible go to the grand prize.She said that if she was paying a $1000-$1400 to enter that she is going for the gusto and has already kissed that money good bye.

(that will be my team she will be kissing good bye this march)

Money · Post by **Money** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:28 pm

Originally posted by Glenneration X:

Joe, we were all new players once. In fact, I believe I was a new player only one year before you were. I understand your points, but I believe you're going overboard with the "Pros" wanting a larger overall prize because they figure they'll win it logic.

I know one thing for certain. If your concern is attracting new blood to the contest, third place money of $500 will be of little consequence to any new player willing to buy-in at the cost of $1000. When I was a new player in 2009, again only one year before you were, the third place prize played absolutely no part in my decision to join. It was the overall prize of $100,000.00. That was the carrot that attracted me. I'd be willing to bet that was the carrot that attracted everyone who's ever joined the overall contest, including you.

There's $1000 satellites for those who'd rather invest their grand in a league that defers to the league prizes.

I'd also be willing to bet that in the first year of this new 12-team contest, the registration list is populated almost exclusively by veterans of the NFBC who would just like another live draft during the Vegas or New York weekends. I can't imagine too many new players to the NFBC plunking $1000 down to win a $40K or even $50K prize when for only $400 more they get a chance at $100K. Pot odds my friend. 2 to 1 increase on return for only 1.4 times the buy-in.

If the 12-teamer is the attraction as you stated, why would a new player spend $1000 for the same grand prize as the Online Championship when for the same grand in that format, he can get a 3-pack and three times the chance at the same grand prize. I doubt the $500 3rd place prize is a difference maker in that decision.

What needs to be done is to increase the grand prize and overall 2-10 prizes to differentiate it from the Online Championships and have those who perform well in the online format migrate naturally to the bigger and better prizes in the live event. That's human nature and that's what makes sense, not hoping a $500 consolation keeps players coming back.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm a big proponent of improving league prizes. I believe that in the Main Event, league prizes and the 2-10 overall prizes need to be increased well before the first place overall prize is ever touched. However, first thing's first. The Grand Prize is the number one attraction for new players to any overall contest. That has to be made enough of a carrot before all other considerations are addressed. Gosh darnit Glenn, I wanted to be done with this debate from my point of view. Seeing as you addressed your post to me, I'll make a few points.

1. Your learning curve was obviously much quicker than mine. Possibly you had some high stakes experience before the NFBC. I did not. If not your rise to the top is quite impressive.

2. I'd rather compete for 80k instead of 100k if it meant more league prizes. That's just me. It may be hindsight, I've sucked at this so far. I think I have a better chance investing my money in a 12 team Super, Ultimate or Diamond league than I do in the main events, but I am getting better.

3. Any newcomers chance of return is higher in any league except the national events. They simply don't know that. I'm here speaking for them.

4. It is my goal to be an advocate of the higher overall prizes. That will mean I'm comfortable believing that I can compete. You know as well as I, 75% of all teams have no chance to win an overall without significant experience.

5. When you eliminate 75% of the field, the overall numbers start to make a lot of sense to the top 25%. The the top 25% continue to fight for a blatantly over structured prize distribution skewed toward them. Human nature. I want in that group and hope to be there soon.

Glenn, you're a class act as are 99% of the folks here (I hope to join that group as well ) Not sure I've made my points or have heard them stated before so maybe I'm off base. You'll probably be the only one to make it this far, I apologize for rambling. I hope you get where I'm coming from.

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:27 am

You're a good guy Joe. Keep the passion. We just disagree here.

southpaw23 · Post by **southpaw23** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:35 am

Since the main complaint of a $500 3rd place league prize is that it's not that meaningful or too small, how about upping it to $1000 and making 2nd place $1500?

I mean, 1st should be the ultimate goal and a substantial jump in pay from 2nd.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:36 am

Originally posted by southpaw23:

Since the main complaint of a $500 3rd place league prize is that it's not that meaningful or too small, how about upping it to $1000 and making 2nd place $1500?

I mean, 1st should be the ultimate goal and a substantial jump in pay from 2nd. From a historical standpoint, I actually wonder how the NFBC Main Event ever took off. The first two years I guaranteed the $100,000 grand prize, but because we were basing the prizes on just 300 teams our league prizes were terrible. Can anyone even remember what they were that first year?

How about:

1st - $5,000

2nd - $1,750

3rd - $750

That was on a $1,250 entry fee and 15 teams!!! So really we had one team making money per league. Crazy. But you folks supported the contest and once we got over 300 teams in 2006 we began shoring up the league prizes. We did that until we were able to make sure 1st place was 4x entry fee and second place was 2x entry fee. Third place has been about getting your money back in 15-team leagues.

So the big carrot carried us through the early years. My feeling now is more that we may need the same strategy going forward. Maybe we again grow this at $50,000 through 300 teams and build all of the prizes from there. Eventually I want a third place prize in this contest, which would differentiate it from the Online Championship while still growing the overall prizes. All of that will take time. But history has shown us that a solid league prize and grand prize will bring in customers and eventually this live event will grow to a level that we currently have in the NFBC 15-Team Main Event.

Okay, I'm still mulling all of this over. But looking at our league prizes from 2004 and how we grew that event is interesting. And informative.

Suburban Strugglers · Post by **Suburban Strugglers** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:41 am

I am also for the higher overall prize over getting third place prize money but that is just me, I really could not tell you what is more enticing to attract new players. For me it would be the bigger overall prize.

I know the point is really not of value now but the reason I first choose the NFBC online contest over the WBC Online contest was that the overall prize in the WBC was I think 10 K and yours was 50 K, yes they had a entry limit so you had a better chance to win but the overall prize is what attracted me to the NFBC and thankfully it did. Just how I felt though.

Happenstance · Post by **Happenstance** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:30 am

I've been thinking about this for a few days and don't have a strong opinion either way, but it does strike me that it's entirely possible that the payout structure that gets the most people to join might not be the same payout structure that gets people to return in subsequent years.

In order to entice people to play that first time, I buy the argument that bigger grand prizes will attract more first-time entrants. But since only one person can win the overall prize, it seems to me that more people (new participants, particularly) might stick around for years 2+ if they had won even a little something that first year (or at least were in the hunt for that $500 3rd place prize in September).

Recognizing that people can't stay if they never joined in the first place, I don't know what the right answer is. But I do think the measure of success shouldn't just be how many people sign up in 2012 but rather how many people return for 2013 and beyond and how the game continues to grow.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:42 am

Originally posted by Happenstance:

I've been thinking about this for a few days and don't have a strong opinion either way, but it does strike me that it's entirely possible that the payout structure that gets the most people to join might not be the same payout structure that gets people to return in subsequent years.

In order to entice people to play that first time, I buy the argument that bigger grand prizes will attract more first-time entrants. But since only one person can win the overall prize, it seems to me that more people (new participants, particularly) might stick around for years 2+ if they had won even a little something that first year (or at least were in the hunt for that $500 3rd place prize in September).

Recognizing that people can't stay if they never joined in the first place, I don't know what the right answer is. But I do think the measure of success shouldn't just be how many people sign up in 2012 but rather how many people return for 2013 and beyond and how the game continues to grow. This is a very good point and that's why I'm proud that the NFBC Main Event has succeeded for eight years now despite having poor league prizes early on. The contest was good enough that 80 percent of the participants returned each year. At least with this debut event, we'll have solid 1st and 2nd place league prizes right from the start and a worthy overall prize structure. If the demand exceeds my expectations, then we can grow the prize pool beyond where we started, which is what we did in the 15-Team Main Event.

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:46 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

quote:Originally posted by Happenstance:

I've been thinking about this for a few days and don't have a strong opinion either way, but it does strike me that it's entirely possible that the payout structure that gets the most people to join might not be the same payout structure that gets people to return in subsequent years.

In order to entice people to play that first time, I buy the argument that bigger grand prizes will attract more first-time entrants. But since only one person can win the overall prize, it seems to me that more people (new participants, particularly) might stick around for years 2+ if they had won even a little something that first year (or at least were in the hunt for that $500 3rd place prize in September).

Recognizing that people can't stay if they never joined in the first place, I don't know what the right answer is. But I do think the measure of success shouldn't just be how many people sign up in 2012 but rather how many people return for 2013 and beyond and how the game continues to grow. This is a very good point and that's why I'm proud that the NFBC Main Event has succeeded for eight years now despite having poor league prizes early on. The contest was good enough that 80 percent of the participants returned each year. At least with this debut event, we'll have solid 1st and 2nd place league prizes right from the start and a worthy overall prize structure. If the demand exceeds my expectations, then we can grow the prize pool beyond where we started, which is what we did in the 15-Team Main Event. [/QUOTE]The point is to get them through the door. Once there, you just have to rely on your product being good enough to keep them. I think it's pretty apparant by the annual retention rate Greg mentions above, his product is good enough.

Money · Post by **Money** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:59 pm

Originally posted by Glenneration X:

quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

quote:Originally posted by Happenstance:

I've been thinking about this for a few days and don't have a strong opinion either way, but it does strike me that it's entirely possible that the payout structure that gets the most people to join might not be the same payout structure that gets people to return in subsequent years.

In order to entice people to play that first time, I buy the argument that bigger grand prizes will attract more first-time entrants. But since only one person can win the overall prize, it seems to me that more people (new participants, particularly) might stick around for years 2+ if they had won even a little something that first year (or at least were in the hunt for that $500 3rd place prize in September).

Recognizing that people can't stay if they never joined in the first place, I don't know what the right answer is. But I do think the measure of success shouldn't just be how many people sign up in 2012 but rather how many people return for 2013 and beyond and how the game continues to grow. This is a very good point and that's why I'm proud that the NFBC Main Event has succeeded for eight years now despite having poor league prizes early on. The contest was good enough that 80 percent of the participants returned each year. At least with this debut event, we'll have solid 1st and 2nd place league prizes right from the start and a worthy overall prize structure. If the demand exceeds my expectations, then we can grow the prize pool beyond where we started, which is what we did in the 15-Team Main Event. [/QUOTE]The point is to get them through the door. Once there, you just have to rely on your product being good enough to keep them. I think it's pretty apparant by the annual retention rate Greg mentions above, his product is good enough. [/QUOTE]Greg,

I think it would be a good thing to spell out your intentions in advance if you blow through the 300 team goal. What will the 400 team prize distribution look like? Dare I say 500 team? That would be more fair than blowing through it and asking everybody's advice again as to where the extra funds should go after the fact. Lay it out as you see fit and let everyone sign up for the main event they think they're best at.

At this point I'm fine with whatever you decide. I would like to know where the extra funds go because I think you have another WINNING format on your hands.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:56 am

At this point Joe, I'd be ECSTATIC with 300 teams for this contest. Let's just get there. I promise that I'll make the call on the extra payments if we go beyond 300 teams. I've already said that long-term I'd love to see three league prizes in this contest, but if folks think it's insulting to offer less than return money for third place then we'll likely increase the overall prizes. But in future years, I hope to be able to add a third place league prize and increase the overall prize pool. If we can do that, then folks will return to the 12-team format for years to come.

Potter · Post by **Potter** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:20 am

Greg: I think it was was 4k for 1st early on.

Money · Post by **Money** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:34 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

At this point Joe, I'd be ECSTATIC with 300 teams for this contest. Let's just get there. I promise that I'll make the call on the extra payments if we go beyond 300 teams. I've already said that long-term I'd love to see three league prizes in this contest, but if folks think it's insulting to offer less than return money for third place then we'll likely increase the overall prizes. But in future years, I hope to be able to add a third place league prize and increase the overall prize pool. If we can do that, then folks will return to the 12-team format for years to come. You're all over it. No one knows better than you how to attract and keep a customer base in the fantasy sports business. Good luck with your new format. I'm a huge fan and will support this one big time.

Captain Hook · Post by **Captain Hook** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:24 am

I would like Greg and everyone to note what happened when FBG.com started their event for twelve team FF teams.

Entry was/is $350

First year - almost 2000 entries

This year - almost 3000 entries

So I think NFBC would be wise to emulate this for the NFBC XII Championship

Pay 1st, 2nd, 3rd in leagues

Set the best 1st overall prize you can based on X teams (Greg's best guess BUT with a much more manageable entry fee thus drawing a LOT more people - and multiple entries).

INCREASE the Overall prizes once X is exceeded by a certain point AND continue to do that if the number of teams greatly increases.

Personally I would bet that with a $350 entry fee and a $20,000 or $25,000 guaranteed grand prize that the initial year would have 1,000.....yes One Thousand entries (Greg can calulate what the Grand Prize would be at that level but I can guarantee everyone already playing and Hundreds of new players would be in the event.

PVH

[ November 17, 2011, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: Captain Hook ]

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:41 am

Now that I see it used,

'NFBC XII Championship' does not do the job.

Stupid flood protection

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:52 am

Originally posted by Captain Hook:

I would like Greg and everyone to note what happened when FBG.com started their event for twelve team FF teams.

Entry was/is $350

First year - almost 2000 entries

This year - almost 3000 entries

So I think NFBC would be wise to emulate this for the NFBC XII Championship

Pay 1st, 2nd, 3rd in leagues

Set the best 1st overall prize you can based on X teams (Greg's best guess BUT with a much more manageable entry fee thus drawing a LOT more people - and multiple entries).

INCREASE the Overall prizes once X is exceeded by a certain point AND continue to do that if the number of teams greatly increases.

Personally I would bet that with a $350 entry fee and a $20,000 or $25,000 guaranteed grand prize that the initial year would have 1,000.....yes One Thousand entries (Greg can calulate what the Grand Prize would be at that level but I can guarantee everyone already playing and Hundreds of new players would be in the event.

PVH Perry, I know you've been away from our baseball boards for awhile, but you're late to the party here. This will be our fourth year of doing the $350 NFBC Online Championship and our grand prize is $50,000 based on 600 teams. We have a solid format for this contest and I hope it does grow to 1,000 teams. The differences between baseball and football are very big, as you know, and having their promotional partner in that space is also very big. So things are different here, but yes the $350 Online Championship is alive and well here.

Now I'm trying to get 12-team fanatics to DRAFT LIVE!! That's the plan we're going for. And I think we can do it with a strong overall pay structure and solid league prizes. But as someone said previously, to keep folks coming back every year after Year 1 we may need even better league prizes in the future and an aggressive plan to keep growing the overall prizes. Let's build it together.

[ November 17, 2011, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: Greg Ambrosius ]

Captain Hook · Post by **Captain Hook** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:08 am

I was well aware of the Online Championship and talking about a LIVE 12 team event.

If you need to differentiate, make the entry for the LIVE 12 team event $500. My point is that if you make the entry MORE affordable then you WILL get more teams and like the FBG contest end up not with a $35,000 grand prize but much closer to a $100,000 first place award.

I know tons of avid fantasy baseball players who would think the $500 entry is within their means but who tune out when you got to four digits.

Again the key is you can offter a reasonable entry with a Big $ prize AND increase it incrementally as the size of the field grows.