NFBC questions

papercutsuicide · Post by **papercutsuicide** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:44 am

I'm very interested in playing in this league, but have a few questions that are not answered in the "Rules" link:

1. It is specified that there are no minimum thresholds for games played...but are there maximum thresholds? i.e. can you get stats for as many games as you can slot using your active 23 man roster, and the $1000 worth of waiver wire pickups you have for the season?

2. Are all players in the available players pool always on waivers? if so, when (what day) will the silent bids on the players in the pool be processed?

3. Lineups are to be set at the beginning of the week. Can you still make intra-roster moves during the week (i.e. move players from your 6-player bench to a starting slot on a day-to-day basis?).

LB Big Richards · Post by **LB Big Richards** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:30 am

1. No

2. Everybody is a FA - no waiver periods like Yahoo or ESPN. Sunday is the day for FA claims.

3. No

papercutsuicide · Post by **papercutsuicide** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:38 am

thanks, that clears up a lot...but since that time, i've come up with two more questions:

(1) how/when will the draft order be determined? imo, the guy who has the 1st pick has a tremendous advantage in this league. The reason being that he gets A-Rod, and when it raps around for his 30/31st pick, he's still getting guys who are as good as the 15/16th picks (i.e. the picks taken by the guy who is 15th in the draft order).

(2) during the draft, what mechanism will be employed to show all of the players that have already been drafted? As you know, in yahoo leagues, as each player is selected, the player's name is "grayed out" to let the selectee know that that player has already been chosen. If we have to somehow keep track of who's been selected on our own, then all the more reason that 60 seconds is nowhere near long enough to make a selection.

Leaderboard Sports · Post by **Leaderboard Sports** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:01 am

Draft order and leagues will be a blind draw a few days before the draft.

You have to keep track of players selected on your own. They are posted on a big board as they are taken and the names are repeated loudly and clearly by the draft facillitaters. Bring lots of highlighters to cross names of your lists.

a · Post by a » Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:14 am

Originally posted by Leaderboard Sports:

Draft order and leagues will be a blind draw a few days before the draft.

You have to keep track of players selected on your own. They are posted on a big board as they are taken and the names are repeated loudly and clearly by the draft facillitaters. Bring lots of highlighters to cross names of your lists. And trust me, if you select a player that has already been picked, no less that 5 guys will let you know.

LB Big Richards · Post by **LB Big Richards** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:15 am

(1) how/when will the draft order be determined? imo, the guy who has the 1st pick has a tremendous advantage in this league. The reason being that he gets A-Rod, and when it raps around for his 30/31st pick, he's still getting guys who are as good as the 15/16th picks (i.e. the picks taken by the guy who is 15th in the draft order).

Draft order, as well as league placement, is determined randomly - about 2-3 weeks before the actual draft date.

Not necessarily. ARod is definitely the #1 pick, but it's crucial how well you draft in the 10th-20th rounds, IMO. ARod is just one of 29 players on your roster .

(2) during the draft, what mechanism will be employed to show all of the players that have already been drafted? As you know, in yahoo leagues, as each player is selected, the player's name is "grayed out" to let the selectee know that that player has already been chosen. If we have to somehow keep track of who's been selected on our own, then all the more reason that 60 seconds is nowhere near long enough to make a selection

Huge draft boards will be set up in front of U shaped tables.

http://www.fjfantasy.com/

That's why it's prudent to have a co-manager at the draft. Again, it's possible to fly solo if you're organized.

papercutsuicide · Post by **papercutsuicide** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:16 am

thanks. that's a showstopper issue for me (the selection time). I'm surprised that no one else has chimed in on this issue; 60 seconds is not long enough, even employing computer automation to track the picks. Having to track the picks yourself makes the 60-second selection time preposterous. There are going to be a lot of draft mistakes made in the NFBC draft (and I'm not talking about mistakes in hindsight). I, for one, am not willing to risk $1250 and blow my chance because I made a mistake rushing my pick to beat a 60-second clock.

papercutsuicide · Post by **papercutsuicide** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:26 am

Originally posted by LB Big Richards:

(1) how/when will the draft order be determined? imo, the guy who has the 1st pick has a tremendous advantage in this league. The reason being that he gets A-Rod, and when it raps around for his 30/31st pick, he's still getting guys who are as good as the 15/16th picks (i.e. the picks taken by the guy who is 15th in the draft order).

Draft order, as well as league placement, is determined randomly - about 2-3 weeks before the actual draft date.

Not necessarily. ARod is definitely the #1 pick, but it's crucial how well you draft in the 10th-20th rounds, IMO. ARod is just one of 29 players on your roster .

(2) during the draft, what mechanism will be employed to show all of the players that have already been drafted? As you know, in yahoo leagues, as each player is selected, the player's name is "grayed out" to let the selectee know that that player has already been chosen. If we have to somehow keep track of who's been selected on our own, then all the more reason that 60 seconds is nowhere near long enough to make a selection

Huge draft boards will be set up in front of U shaped tables.

http://www.fjfantasy.com/

That's why it's prudent to have a co-manager at the draft. Again, it's possible to fly solo if you're organized. but my point about the guy drafting 1st is this: the guy drafting 1st gets A-Rod. Then, for the duration of the draft, the guy drafting A-Rod's succeeding picks match up well with the guy who drafted 15th (i.e. his 2nd/3rd round picks are just as good as the guy who drafted 15th's 1st and 2nd round picks). By the end of the draft, the guy who drafted 1st and the guy who drafted 15th have even teams...with the glaring exception that the guy who drafted 1st has A-Rod. That substantially increases his probability of winning over the guy who drafts 15th. Of course I understand that nothing is guaranteed, but it is inarguable that the guy drafting 1st goes into the season with a much higher probability of winning than the guy drafting 15th.

IMO, people with the 1st 5 picks should have to pay a premium for those picks. Like maybe giving away their 7th round pick to the guys who are drafting in the 11th-15th positions.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:45 am

Thanks for answering all the questions guys. That's what I get for playing a long hoops noon-hour game. All I can say is that 60 seconds and change should be long enough, the draft boards are HUGE, the draft order is totally random after all entrants are in, and I think it will be proven that you can win this contest from any draft position. What you do in the last 10 rounds and in regular season free agent pickups will determine league champions. Staying organized with simple draft lists really isn't that tough for a mixed league format and those who can do it will compete with the best in the business. Best of luck everyone.

papercutsuicide · Post by **papercutsuicide** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:03 am

i agree that anyone -can- win, and that free agent pickups during the season are key. my argument is that the person picking 1st (or 2nd or 3rd) has a much higher -probability- of winning than the person drafting 15th. Even if I don't participate (and I won't, unless the 60-second selection rule is changed), I will track the leagues, and come back at the end of the season with an analysis of what the relative success of each drafting position was in all 20 leagues. I'd be willing to bet anybody in here that the performance of the composite of the all the people drafting 1st will be substantially better than the composite of all the people drafting 15th.

Nevadaman · Post by **Nevadaman** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:21 am

Papercut: Your logic makes no sense to me at all. It's a RANDOM draw. What if YOU get to draft first, second, or third? Yes, the top places have a slight advantage, but I totally disagree that the 15th pick is equal to the 30th pick. You can win from any position. Besides, there are 29 rounds of picks. ALL of the picks matter and this draft takes a lot of skill. And since the NY trade will cost Arod 5-10 bombs, 10 BA points and most of his steals, I think it's very debatable that he's even the first pick!

Rey · Post by **Rey** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:33 am

Paper: If such is the case, how do you plan on playing ANY fantasy league? If your argument is true, then ALL snake drafts are unfair, including the yahoo leagues you mention. And seeing as though I very much doubt you will find any reputable league that would force anybody with a top 5 pick to pay a "premium" of their 7th round pick, then I simply don't think snake drafts are for you.

Maybe you could consider joining an auction draft, as such concerns do not exist there.

papercutsuicide · Post by **papercutsuicide** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:44 am

Originally posted by Nevadaman:

Papercut: Your logic makes no sense to me at all. It's a RANDOM draw. What if YOU get to draft first, second, or third? Yes, the top places have a slight advantage, but I totally disagree that the 15th pick is equal to the 30th pick. You can win from any position. Besides, there are 29 rounds of picks. ALL of the picks matter and this draft takes a lot of skill. And since the NY trade will cost Arod 5-10 bombs, 10 BA points and most of his steals, I think it's very debatable that he's even the first pick! oh, it makes perfect sense all right, and I am confident that the logic of my argument will be revealed at the end of the season. IMO, there is a distinct tiering to the players, wherein there is very little difference between the 15th and 30th best players, but a significant difference between the 1st and 15th best players.

Snake drafts are inherently unfair, but the unfairness is often mitigated by (1) having fewer than 15 teams in the league (the yahoo default is 12, and that would make a huge difference); (2) the leagues often have at least a few people who are clueless. In this league, all of the GM's are apt to be excellent.

The 15 team snake draft design concept is acceptable to me; I'm only pointing out what I thought to be the obvious (that the person picking 1st has a significant advantage over the person picking 15th). LIke I said in another thread, the showstopper issue for me is the 60-second selection time. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in vegas, new york, or chicago, because I know that more than a few people will wish that the selection time was longer as they frantically try to beat the 60 second clock.

LB Big Richards · Post by **LB Big Richards** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:44 am

Feel free to analyse last season's contest. The three league winners had the 2nd, 11th, and 8th picks, respectively. I don't see how you think that getting one of the top 5 players automatically puts you in the driver's seat. Is having ARod, Schmidt, V. Wells, and Castillo that much better than Nomar, Thome, Vazquez, and Furcal?

Besides, out of the 29 players we drafted last year, less than half of them were on our roster at the end of the season. FA pickups are huge with no trading involved.

papercutsuicide · Post by **papercutsuicide** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:48 am

3 leagues is a very small sample size. still, i'm curious, how did the person who picked 1st do in each of the leagues? how did the person who picked 15th do in each of the leagues?

LB Big Richards · Post by **LB Big Richards** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:01 am

As you wish:

League #1 - 1st pick = 14th finish

15th pick = 10th finish

League #2 - 1st = 5th

15th = 8th

League #3 - 1st = 10th

15th = 13th

I don't see a solid deduction out of this information. As a participant of many live snake drafts, I can honestly say a correlation doesn't exist. There are just too many variables involved.

Dominic · Post by **Dominic** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:11 am

60 seconds is an eternity. It's all about preparation. If youre sitting on Rusty Staub, and he gets taken by the guy before you... take a deep breath, consult your list, and confidently call out Warren Cromartie. Everything will work out for you...especially considering that I think Cromartie is due for a breakout season. C'mon Papercut, join the party.

[ February 17, 2004, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Dominic ]

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:21 am

Originally posted by LB Big Richards:

As you wish:

League #1 - 1st pick = 14th finish

15th pick = 10th finish

League #2 - 1st = 5th

15th = 8th

League #3 - 1st = 10th

15th = 13th

As a participant of many live snake drafts, I can honestly say a correlation doesn't exist. I guess you are neutral when it comes to what spot you'd like to draft from? 1st = 15th???

la Jolla · Post by **la Jolla** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:54 am

i'm gonna chime in on this one. i too played in the wcofb last year and took this from it. given the choice i take the 1st pick and arod, but more importantly i think being on or near the turn is where the advantage lies. whenever there were runs on closers or speedsters it started on the turn and by the time it got to me it was too late. i drew the 8th slot and personally would much rather be 1,2,14,or15. papercuts, the only way an analysis of draft positioning would work is if there were no extended injuries to any players taken in say the first 5 rnds. because more than anything, injuries decide what team wins a league like this. it doesn't matter where you draft if one of your top players goes down for an extended time, it's over. and as for the 60 second deal on picks, there isn't one. no one had a problem making their selections on time except for one guy, but he was the same guy who cut roy halladay 4 weeks into the season, so he doesn't really count. if thats your biggest hangup over playing than i agree with gekkos comment, you are dead money and should use the $1250 for something else.

la Jolla · Post by **la Jolla** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:56 am

i'm gonna chime in on this one. i too played in the wcofb last year and took this from it. given the choice i take the 1st pick and arod, but more importantly i think being on or near the turn is where the advantage lies. whenever there were runs on closers or speedsters it started on the turn and by the time it got to me it was too late. i drew the 8th slot and personally would much rather be 1,2,14,or15. papercuts, the only way an analysis of draft positioning would work is if there were no extended injuries to any players taken in say the first 5 rnds. because more than anything, injuries decide what team wins a league like this. it doesn't matter where you draft if one of your top players goes down for an extended time, it's over. and as for the 60 second deal on picks, there isn't one. no one had a problem making their selections on time except for one guy, but he was the same guy who cut roy halladay 4 weeks into the season, so he doesn't really count. if thats your biggest hangup over playing then i agree with gekkos comment, you are dead money and should use the $1250 for something else.

Nevadaman · Post by **Nevadaman** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:56 am

LB Big Richards: Just out of curiosity, in your championship WCOFB season last year, what spot did you draft from?

a · Post by a » Tue Feb 17, 2004 1:45 pm

Originally posted by papercutsuicide:

thanks. that's a showstopper issue for me (the selection time). I'm surprised that no one else has chimed in on this issue; 60 seconds is not long enough, even employing computer automation to track the picks. Having to track the picks yourself makes the 60-second selection time preposterous. There are going to be a lot of draft mistakes made in the NFBC draft (and I'm not talking about mistakes in hindsight). I, for one, am not willing to risk $1250 and blow my chance because I made a mistake rushing my pick to beat a 60-second clock. Dude, very weak..... you clearly don't belong at the big table. Save your money for a slow ESPN league (wait, that's 90 seconds, you might make a mistake there. Try Yahoo, wait, they have a time limit too. Damn, I guess you don;t play at all with that bad time limit).

PS- You are allowed to think while it's NOT your turn, sometimes that helps. Yes, you can plan ahead, it's a novel idea and don't tell anyone else, it's our little secret.

Dyv · Post by **Dyv** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:44 pm

Hey everyone, let's all just go with,

"You're right papercut - the draft is inherently unfair and whoever gets first pick will win the league everytime. You're brilliant, I'm glad you're not competing against us, etc."

Oh, I do have one question.

What if Arod pulls a hammy and misses 10 games. Isn't his 'inherent and obviously slanted very high value' pretty much nonexistent? Forgive me for saying this, but I have the tact of a bull in a china shop sometimes...

You sound like you've calculated yourself into paralysis and you can't seem to move out of it. Why don't you just save your money and buy some more graph paper. We'll somehow manage to all try to compete at our respective heavy disadvantages.

Thanks for amusing me tonight,

Dyv

Jon_Ashton · Post by **Jon_Ashton** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:24 pm

Yes, he was amusing.

And he promised to follow the competition and be back at year's end: "I will track the leagues, and come back at the end of the season with an analysis of what the relative success of each drafting position was."

It's good that those who realize they don't quite have what it takes to compete still want to follow along at home.

Dyv · Post by **Dyv** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:45 pm

I'm sure his analysis will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it could possibly happen differently next year.

I wonder if he works for the government...

D